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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Don't sweat the DCR's differences too much. With the spread that's there, there's not too much to choose. I think you're 2nd worst of the bunch summation is a little harsh as a couple of tenths shows up on paper but probably not via the butt dyno.
If you were so inclined, you could always the advance the cam. This will close the intake valve sooner and bump up the DCR. With the wide LSA, I can't see the top end suffering too much. The bump in low RPM torque could pay dividends in the HP department.
At this point, maybe you could focus on the rest of the package. Build to first principles and ensure that the induction (especially cold air) and the exhaust are up to it. And timing, timing, timing. (Fast is a king in this department).
Speaking of exhaust, I don't recall your setup.
It was mentioned that 1.6 rockers might have a marginal gain, but at .452" with the 1.5, it leaves something to be desired. IIRC, the little 059's still perform at .500". Get there at least once in the lift cycle if you can. I'd say there's some HP there.
Not sure where you're at with your build process either. Have you measured the piston to deck distance? SCR and DCR could both be out to lunch if something is off the normal.
Last edited by skinny z; Jul 24, 2022 at 02:39 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Played around with some more numbers. Took the TOP 3 off the shelf cams in that group, then crunched them with Rhoads V-Max lifters. Tried V-Max lifters on both intake and exhaust and just intake. The Rhoads are fairly linear in their duration increase. I started with 1,000 rpm as a full collapsed point and 4,000 rpm as back to full duration as an assumption. With 3,000 rpm and 500 rpm increments, 6 points total, 20* duration difference between fully bleed off and fully pumped up, results in a 3.3* increase per 500 rpm. Just some methodology, while it is not perfect, it is a fair assumption. It actually somewhat offered the best of both worlds running the Rhoads V-Max on the intake only. It decreased the intake duration, closed the intake valve earlier, and gave a wider duration split at lower rpm, all of which seemed to increase torque.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Don't sweat the DCR's differences too much. With the spread that's there, there's not too much to choose. I think you're 2nd worst of the bunch summation is a little harsh as a couple of tenths shows up on paper but probably not via the butt dyno.
If you were so inclined, you could always the advance the cam. This will close the intake valve sooner and bump up the DCR. With the wide LSA, I can't see the top end suffering too much. The bump in low RPM torque could pay dividends in the HP department.
Good point. While they recommend "straight up", that might help some.
Originally Posted by skinny z
At this point, maybe you could focus on the rest of the package. Build to first principles and ensure that the induction (especially cold air) and the exhaust are up to it. And timing, timing, timing. (Fast is a king in this department).
Speaking of exhaust, I don't recall your setup.
What I have: 60k mile L03 in good shape. L30 Vortec 059 heads. GMPP 4bbl Intake and new Vortec intake bolts, EGR Valve adapter, TBI adapter plate, TBI unit with horn shaved, injector spacer, bored to 46mm, 350 injectors. TBI rebuild kit. L69 dual snorkel air cleaner and ductwork. Crane 2032 cam. SLP 1 3/4" stainless shorty headers with N10 "Y" pipes, bung for 02, all freshly JetHot coated. Magnaflow stainless N10 setup, Borla stainless cat-back system. Motorized cut-out for passenger side tailpipe in Borla system. 180* thermostat and fan switch. 3.42:1 gear set with Zexel Torsen diff and "LS" discs (fronts too), Trick Flow axle cover with bearing cap support. Metco lower control arm set. Bilstein shocks/struts. Edelbrock strut tower brace. A couple of nice valve cover options. Donor ECM for EBL Flash conversion.
Still need: Heads cleaned up, magnafluxed, 3 angle valve job as needed, guides modified as needed, convert to thread-in rocker studs, seals. Adjustable fuel pressure regulator, TPI fuel pump, bore TBI spacer to match TBI unit, fuel pressure gauge, beehive springs and retainers. Windage tray (and pan?). New rear main seal. S-10 or equivalent converter. 28 spline axles for the Zexel Torsen diff. Alston sub-frame connectors. L31 style tube to feed exhaust gases to the EGR port in the intake. I'd like to keep the AIR injection, but the headers are not set up for it. Not sure what I'm doing about that yet. Stage 8 header bolts. EBL Flash conversion.
Undecided: Roller rockers (I like the friction reduction, have heard they can be noisy. I'll probably run them). Head gaskets based on measurements. Timing chain. Water pump (had a nice roller bearing Edelbrock piece, but its falling from a stack of parts is what started my garage fire last year).
The TBI adapter plate, EGR valve adapter, 350 injectors (remans), cam (clearance sale), strut tower brace (clearance sale) were all bought new. Everything else was purchased used.
Still in the parts acquiring and prep phase. Probably won't get to put this all together until winter of '23/'24 Don't think I or the shop will be ready this winter. So SCR measurements will come at that time.
Originally Posted by skinny z
It was mentioned that 1.6 rockers might have a marginal gain, but at .452" with the 1.5, it leaves something to be desired. IIRC, the little 059's still perform at .500". Get there at least once in the lift cycle if you can. I'd say there's some HP there.
Yes, I had also noted in this thread and in prior reading that the 2032 is very modest on lift. I guess thinking on that has changed over the years. That's one issue with choosing a grind that is probably 25-30 years old. I ran those numbers some time back when shopping for rockers. 1.6s will give me 482 on the intake and 496 on the exhaust. If these number from the internet are to be believed, the 059s do continue to flow up to .500 lift.
Originally Posted by skinny z
Not sure where you're at with your build process either. Have you measured the piston to deck distance? SCR and DCR could both be out to lunch if something is off the normal.
As mentioned above, probably a year and a half out from tearing down what I have now.
Last edited by DynoDave43; Jul 24, 2022 at 07:38 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by DynoDave43
Good point. While they recommend "straight up", that might help some.
What I have: 60k mile L03 in good shape. L30 Vortec 059 heads. GMPP 4bbl Intake and new Vortec intake bolts, EGR Valve adapter, TBI adapter plate, TBI unit with horn shaved, injector spacer, bored to 46mm, 350 injectors. TBI rebuild kit. L69 dual snorkel air cleaner and ductwork. Crane 2032 cam. SLP 1 3/4" stainless shorty headers with N10 "Y" pipes, bung for 02, all freshly JetHot coated. Magnaflow stainless N10 setup, Borla stainless cat-back system. Motorized cut-out for passenger side tailpipe in Borla system. 180* thermostat and fan switch. 3.42:1 gear set with Zexel Torsen diff and "LS" discs (fronts too), Trick Flow axle cover with bearing cap support. Metco lower control arm set. Bilstein shocks/struts. Edelbrock strut tower brace. A couple of nice valve cover options. Donor ECM for EBL Flash conversion.
Still need: Heads cleaned up, magnafluxed, 3 angle valve job as needed, guides modified as needed, convert to thread-in rocker studs, seals. Adjustable fuel pressure regulator, TPI fuel pump, bore TBI spacer to match TBI unit, fuel pressure gauge, beehive springs and retainers. Windage tray (and pan?). New rear main seal. S-10 or equivalent converter. 28 spline axles for the Zexel Torsen diff. Alston sub-frame connectors. L31 style tube to feed exhaust gases to the EGR port in the intake. I'd like to keep the AIR injection, but the headers are not set up for it. Not sure what I'm doing about that yet. Stage 8 header bolts. EBL Flash conversion.
Undecided: Roller rockers (I like the friction reduction, have heard they can be noisy. I'll probably run them). Head gaskets based on measurements. Timing chain. Water pump (had a nice roller bearing Edelbrock piece, but its falling from a stack of parts is what started my garage fire last year).
The TBI adapter plate, EGR valve adapter, 350 injectors (remans), cam (clearance sale), strut tower brace (clearance sale) were all bought new. Everything else was purchased used.
Still in the parts acquiring and prep phase. Probably won't get to put this all together until winter of '23/'24 Don't think I or the shop will be ready this winter. So SCR measurements will come at that time.
Yes, I had also noted in this thread and in prior reading that the 2032 is very modest on lift. I guess thinking on that has changed over the years. That's one issue with choosing a grind that is probably 25-30 years old. I ran those numbers some time back when shopping for rockers. 1.6s will give me 482 on the intake and 496 on the exhaust. If these number from the internet are to be believed, the 059s do continue to flow up to .500 lift.
As mentioned above, probably a year and a half out from tearing down what I have now.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
FWIW my 059s off a boat outflowed the mexican 062s that came on the mexican 350 crate engine that went into my 97 van back in 2006. The mexican 062s flowed 218 @ 0.450 and nose dived to 210 @ 0.500. With stock 1.84 valves my 059s were 218 @ 0.450 and 224 @ 0.500. With the swirl ramp in place, 1.94 valves and the throat opened accordingly with a 50° seat the 059s flowed 240 @ 0.450 and 235 @ 0.500. I ran 0.480 lift with them. At 0.480 they were still flowing 238 cfm.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by Fast355
What did your water pump hit?
It was higher up in a stack of things. Had been there for years. Not sure WHY it fell, but when it did, it knocked over a large box with a car cover (all synthetic fiber) in it. It tumbled across the floor and in front of a bullet / salamander heater. When the thermostat kicked on, it burned that giant synthetic ball into a liquid mess, creating all the millions of little strings of black soot and smoke that you get when you burn plastics. Only a few items actually "burned". Most of the damage was from smoke.
Originally Posted by Fast355
FWIW my 059s off a boat outflowed the mexican 062s that came on the mexican 350 crate engine that went into my 97 van back in 2006. The mexican 062s flowed 218 @ 0.450 and nose dived to 210 @ 0.500. With stock 1.84 valves my 059s were 218 @ 0.450 and 224 @ 0.500. With the swirl ramp in place, 1.94 valves and the throat opened accordingly with a 50° seat the 059s flowed 240 @ 0.450 and 235 @ 0.500. I ran 0.480 lift with them. At 0.480 they were still flowing 238 cfm.
I subscribe to that YouTube channel. He's a member here. Lots of good Vortec head info on his channel.
Those are good numbers for a factory 305 iron head!
On a somewhat related note, how did you clean the corrosion out of the coolant passages on your heads? I'm not sure if a std. machine shop hot ank treatment will clean them up or not. (I have not personally hot tank parts in 30 years). I had thought about pre-soaking the heads with IronTite.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by DynoDave43
It was higher up in a stack of things. Had been there for years. Not sure WHY it fell, but when it did, it knocked over a large box with a car cover (all synthetic fiber) in it. It tumbled across the floor and in front of a bullet / salamander heater. When the thermostat kicked on, it burned that giant synthetic ball into a liquid mess, creating all the millions of little strings of black soot and smoke that you get when you burn plastics. Only a few items actually "burned". Most of the damage was from smoke.
I subscribe to that YouTube channel. He's a member here. Lots of good Vortec head info on his channel.
Those are good numbers for a factory 305 iron head!
On a somewhat related note, how did you clean the corrosion out of the coolant passages on your heads? I'm not sure if a std. machine shop hot ank treatment will clean them up or not. (I have not personally hot tank parts in 30 years). I had thought about pre-soaking the heads with IronTite.
OP / Mortorq, were your 059s from a marine engine? If so, did you have to deal with any extra corrosion?
My 059 heads, a 395 cam and a forged 305 1-piece rear seal crank, PM rods and pistons as well as a single roller timing set came out of a 75 hour engine that the owners wife let freeze in the process of a nasty divorice. They were like new.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Dyno Dave,
My 520(059) heads must have been off a Silverado or something, because there was not any corrosion in the passages. I purchased the pair already off the engine.
VERY impressive helpful amount of calculations going on here. I bet UDHarold would have been proud.
Can I ask you guys again if cam blanks are available in October?
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
I am sorry if someone already Posted this...
But If you can Not Purchase a Camshaft that you would like, there is a good chance that a Camshaft you already own could be Reground
to something similar if not the same as what you wanted.
It is not possible to obtain a completely different Cam from a ReGrind, but you can get quite a lot out of it.
When I am Building Engines for Customers, I will often have a Cam ReGround to make changes...
Instead of purchasing a New Cam.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Thanks Vorteciroc ,
Good idea about getting an existing cam reground.
SkinnyZ was able to help out and give me the lowdown with Mike Jones as far as getting my cam reground or, regrinding mine.
Just crazy how the supply chain for virtually everything has gone in the toilet.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by Fast355
My 059 heads, a 395 cam and a forged 305 1-piece rear seal crank, PM rods and pistons as well as a single roller timing set came out of a 75 hour engine that the owners wife let freeze in the process of a nasty divorice. They were like new.
That's funny. This engine was supposed to have around 100 hours on it. The owner did drain the block (and heads), but there was a localized spot in the side of the block that had casting sand in it, and that spot froze and cracked the block. At leats that's what his boat mechanic told him.
I've had friends with boats with cracked blocks, but this is not what I had envisioned. Too close to the head for my liking, thus my heads first stop will magnaflux.
I wanted to buy the block for the PM rods and other improved Vortec parts, but he had already sold it.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I am sorry if someone already Posted this...
But If you can Not Purchase a Camshaft that you would like, there is a good chance that a Camshaft you already own could be Reground
to something similar if not the same as what you wanted.
It is not possible to obtain a completely different Cam from a ReGrind, but you can get quite a lot out of it.
When I am Building Engines for Customers, I will often have a Cam ReGround to make changes...
Instead of purchasing a New Cam.
Originally Posted by Mortorq
Thanks Vorteciroc ,
Good idea about getting an existing cam reground.
SkinnyZ was able to help out and give me the lowdown with Mike Jones as far as getting my cam reground or, regrinding mine.
Just crazy how the supply chain for virtually everything has gone in the toilet.
Yeah, that idea was floated earlier. A bigger cam than needed would be easier to be reground than a smaller one made larger. (I'm guessing someone here has the original L03 cam kicking about however Mr Jones has commented that you might be able to get couple of degrees of LSA and a little duration and lift) But that larger potential core is a rare commodity it seems. The issue of a smaller base circle also comes into play and the inherent valve train geometry obstacles it might present when getting something reground.
Here's hoping this BS with the supply chain (I'm really learning to dislike that phrase) is remedied soon. I have my own cam and associated valvetrain to order up in the spring.
Last edited by skinny z; Jul 25, 2022 at 10:04 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Yeah, that idea was floated earlier. A bigger cam than needed would be easier to be reground than a smaller one made larger. (I'm guessing someone here has the original L03 cam kicking about however Mr Jones has commented that you might be able to get couple of degrees of LSA and a little duration and lift) But that larger potential core is a rare commodity it seems. The issue of a smaller base circle also comes into play and the inherent valve train geometry obstacles it might present when getting something reground.
Here's hoping this BS with the supply chain (I'm really learning to dislike that phrase) is remedied soon. I have my own cam and associated valvetrain to order up in the spring.
Hate to say it but how does the socialism taste? Only going to get worse as electric vehicles and green energy is forced down our throats.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
You know, I'm as apolitical as they come. It doesn't really matter who runs the show, stuff will change.
That said, from my vantage point, we'll be racing our hot rods for a long time yet. Formula 1 is moving to 100% sustainable fuel. So will we.
Sure electrics are here to stay. Funny that though. What generates a lot of electricity? Yep. Fossil fuel.
I like Doc's car in one of the Back to the Future movies. Powered by a "Mr Fusion" nuclear reactor. A step beyond the Flux Capacitor! Coming soon to a refueling station near you.
Now back to our regularly scheduled bench racing.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Generally a ReGrind of a Mild Cam can produce the more Wild Valve Events (like a "Larger" Cam) that are desired without issue.
As said, the Base Circle dimension must be reduced...
As such, New Push-Rods (Longer) will be required, but will operate no differently than a configuration using original dimensions.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
You know, I'm as apolitical as they come. It doesn't really matter who runs the show, stuff will change.
That said, from my vantage point, we'll be racing our hot rods for a long time yet. Formula 1 is moving to 100% sustainable fuel. So will we.
Sure electrics are here to stay. Funny that though. What generates a lot of electricity? Yep. Fossil fuel.
I like Doc's car in one of the Back to the Future movies. Powered by a "Mr Fusion" nuclear reactor. A step beyond the Flux Capacitor! Coming soon to a refueling station near you.
Now back to our regularly scheduled bench racing.
I am just talking more about labor shortage as well as inflation and now anti-truck friendly laws being added to the books that are doing away with owner operaters to force new trucks. I think we are going to have supply issues for years to come if things stay the way they are.
I have personally looked at natural gas as a fuel recently. The biggest expense in the conversion is the tank.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Yes, there is that.
I was enthusiastic about more manufacturing coming back to American (and Canadian) soil but it seems some of the steam has gone out of that one.
The trucker situation notwithstanding, it would be a lot easier to transport goods across the country than it is across the ocean. Maybe even a step up in quality.
Anyway, we shall see.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Now, back to cams for a minute.
I'd like to get a better look at the 395 specs. Something is off in terms of output vs the DCR and IVC calculated.
If the advertised numbers hold true, with the at lash values (.000"), then the results make sense. When the deciphered .050" numbers are used, it should make the most torque of all of them or be on par with Mortorq's custom grind.
It has me thinking.
Last edited by skinny z; Jul 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Skinny
So, possibly more analysis coming of the 395 cam’s output vs the calculated DCR & IVC?
Only thing missing is some real lift closer to .500” to use with the valve guide clearanced #520 heads.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
I would think so.
Judging by the link posted by Fast I can't see why, when using the .006" and .050" numbers as well as the LSA and ICL as posted in the link it should produce decent torque.
The lift is a little thin and even with 1.6 ratio rockers you're at .480" or so.
Again from what was posted (there's a link to Stan Weiss' website somewhere above) that is about the point where the flow has already diminished. Might now be a bad spot to end up. It looks like you'd pass through the sweet spot of maximum CFM twice in one cycle.
Always a good place to be.
I'll probably drag out my old DynoSim software and maybe PipeMax on Saturday and see how it shakes out at my end.
I'll say there are better spec'd cams to be had but it may be you take what you can get.
It's something that can always be changed despite what a PITA an in car cam swap is.
Last edited by skinny z; Jul 27, 2022 at 12:17 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
I would think so.
Judging by the link posted by Fast I can't see why, when using the .006" and .050" numbers as well as the LSA and ICL as posted in the link it should produce decent torque.
The lift is a little thin and even with 1.6 ratio rockers you're at .480" or so.
Again from what was posted (there's a link to Stan Weiss' website somewhere above) that is about the point where the flow has already diminished. Might now be a bad spot to end up. It looks like you'd pass through the sweet spot of maximum CFM twice in one cycle.
Always a good place to be.
I'll probably drag out my old DynoSim software and maybe PipeMax on Saturday and see how it shakes out at my end.
I'll say there are better spec'd cams to be had but it may be you take what you can get.
It's something that can always be changed despite what a PITA an in car cam swap is.
When I ran the 395 with 2.02/1.60 valve 906s, I ran 1.7 rockers for 0.488/0.511 lift and the duration worked out to be about the equivalent of 200/211@ 0.050. Peak HP happened at 4,700 rpm and peak torque at 2,900. Total timing was 34° @ 2,400 rpm on E85. Made 272 hp @ 4,700 and 330 tq @ 2,900 at the wheels through a 4L85E and 9.5" semi float 14 bolt. Figure about 20-25% loss at peak hp from that drivetrain. 340-362 crank hp. Torque loss is a bit lower, maybe 15-18%. 388-402 crank tq. The added exhaust duration hurts low-speed torque regardless off the IVC and LSA.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
355 wasn't it?
Interesting bit with the larger valve 906's. I'd often read that you can kill an otherwise really good intake port with the larger size unless you take into account the importance of the valve job overall.
I'm not sure if Weiss' has any flow numbers for the reworked Vortecs. I'll have to have another look.
I DO know my RHS versions, with 2.02/1.60 were touted to be about a 20% improvement over the stockers but the RHS website does their test with a 4.200" fixture bore. The numbers mean little.
I did have them flowed after the latest valve job CFM was 255@.500". And as is typical with all Vortecs, flow would drop off after that.
Need some additional porting to remedy that but for me, a .575" lift target is about right and very manageable.
Now, as for Mortorq, supply notwithstanding, I'm still liking the 270 HR. Seems a good overall choice. And lift is right at .500" with 1.5's.
Now you just have to find one.
Last edited by skinny z; Jul 27, 2022 at 05:56 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
355 wasn't it?
Interesting bit with the larger valve 906's. I'd often read that you can kill an otherwise really good intake port with the larger size unless you take into account the importance of the valve job overall.
I'm not sure if Weiss' has any flow numbers for the reworked Vortecs. I'll have to have another look.
I DO know my RHS versions, with 2.02/1.60 were touted to be about a 20% improvement over the stockers but the RHS website does their test with a 4.200" fixture bore. The numbers mean little.
I did have them flowed after the latest valve job CFM was 255@.500". And as is typical with all Vortecs, flow would drop off after that.
Need some additional posting to remedy that but for me, a .575" lift target is about right and very manageable.
Now, as for Mortorq, supply notwithstanding, I'm still liking the 270 HR. Seems a good overall choice. And lift is right at .500" with 1.5's.
Now you just have to find one.
Stock hecho en mexico goodwrench L31 bottom end. About 9.6:1 with 0.016" head gaskets and 0.020" taken off the 906s.
Summit is showing 1 of the 270HR in stock ready to ship today.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by Fast355
Stock hecho en mexico goodwrench L31 bottom end. About 9.6:1 with 0.016" head gaskets and 0.020" taken off the 906s.
Summit is showing 1 of the 270HR in stock ready to ship today.
Almost went that route myself.
I ended up rebuilding my 355 short lock. Now, at least everything is forged and new. Aside from the GM forged crank which has been in the family over twenty years. Crack free and now fresh as a daisy.
As for the cam, that begs the question...pull the trigger now? Or wait?
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Use. Melling cam # 22280. Be sure to degree it in. On this cam for in a 305, to enhance low mid torque. I recomend you move this cam. Move to 104 intake C/l.. cam card is 110 LSA 107/113.. You want 104/116. You're moving it ahead by 3 degrees from cam card. Get the CR up to 10:1. (Final head chamber volume, Head gasket ,. piston deck clearance.
Some might like a 1.6 intake rocker. No waiting for this one. Just right for a 5 speed manual hot rodded 305 with ported heads.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Fbird’88
Thanks for the input, certainly appreciate it, but holy cow.
Everything I’d read, heard, learned, was told, etc is that a little 9.0-1 305 will be a slug off idle with a cam as big as mid 220’s. @ .050”, and a tall 3:08 posi no less.
Advancing the Melling cam that much could make that big of a difference with all that extra duration?
Granted, the stock cam has only 179*/194* @ .050”, & that’s an additional 41 degrees of intake duration with the Melling #22280 cam.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Use. Melling cam # 22280. Be sure to degree it in. On this cam for in a 305, to enhance low mid torque. I recomend you move this cam. Move to 104 intake C/l.. cam card is 110 LSA 107/113.. You want 104/116. You're moving it ahead by 3 degrees from cam card. Get the CR up to 10:1. (Final head chamber volume, Head gasket ,. piston deck clearance.
Some might like a 1.6 intake rocker. No waiting for this one. Just right for a 5 speed manual hot rodded 305 with ported heads.
Melling 22280.
Advertised Duration: 283 int./287 exh.
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 220 int./224 exh.
LSA: 110
ICL: 107
Where does Melling measure their advertised duration ? We've had this conversation at Speed-Talk and IIRC it's not at .006" lifter rise.
From that conversation: Comp is .006" lifter rise.
Melling is .006" @the valve (or .004" lifter rise) (SAE)
They are not the same thus not directly comparable
"shoe size". Typical difference is 7-8 deg seat to seat.
If you are going to compare cams on a simulator you want to compare them accuratly at the same checking point.
As well as: Note the melling cam seat to seat dur is @.006" valve (SAE) or .004" lobe lift. So to compare to a Comp shorten seat dur by 7 deg to be same same.
So the Melling cam posted above is more like 276/280.
I'll add it to the list as see where it shakes out.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
275-279 duration .006". With the T5 5 Speed manual trans it is fine. (This is a baby cam . (shoe size). as cams go.
Of course more gearz is always more better.
You are way over analyzing on the cams.
It is not hard to get the cr correct on a flat top 305.
10:1 or very close to it is the target.
Little motors need compression.
This is where most go wrong on 283 builds too.
9:1 is not enough reguardless of what cam.
It needs 10:1. N/A
If 9:1 cr supercharge it.
(can use that same same cam for that too.)
You can go on YouTube and listen to engines running with this Melling camshaft .
Its not super radical at all.
Its more like a 218/ 218 108 LSA cam in on 104.
It will be very torky and responsive installed on 104
With a good spark advance curve and 10:1. with a dual plane intake.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; Aug 1, 2022 at 11:39 AM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Melling is like a lt4 hot cam. Maybe bit better lobe. I like it in 350’s, never ran one in a 305 but always wanted to. Does seem like a bit bigger than ideal for what i understand you to be doing with this car.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Melling cam calculations with a 107 ICL and a 104 ICL.
Static compression is 9.3:1.
Keep in mind that there is still the consideration of using regular grade fuel. Otherwise, I'd say get the SCR up to 10:1.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
10:1 or very close to it is the target.
Little motors need compression.
This is where most go wrong on 283 builds too.
9:1 is not enough reguardless of what cam.
It needs 10:1. N/A
.
The discussion was initially built around the possibility of running regular fuel.
SCR is at or around 9.3:1.
Personally, I'd like to see a bump to 10:1 as well. The trade off for using premium fuel could be better fuel economy at cruise. At least this is what I've found.
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Its more like a 218/ 218 108 LSA cam in on 104.
It will be very torky and responsive installed on 104
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Melling is like a lt4 hot cam. Maybe bit better lobe. I like it in 350’s, never ran one in a 305 but always wanted to. Does seem like a bit bigger than ideal for what i understand you to be doing with this car.
The LT4 being an OEM cam, how would you compare the lobe profiles?
The Melling looks to have a sizable lobe at .333" if you compare to what Jones has to offer in his less aggressive stuff.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
According to the GMPP install instruction sheet the LT4 hot cam is 272-281 @.006" lobe lift.
109in/115ex centers 112LSA
..328" lobe lift. .492" (1.5rr.). .525"(1.6rr)
219°/228° @.050"
Remember this cam was intended for the short runner "anti-tuned" EFI manifold and 10:.8:1 CR of the LT4 engine. Using 1.6 rockers.
You may find performance benefit on your engine/ car combo and driving purpose by tweeking the camshaft installed phasing +/-.
Like I suggest trying with the Melling camshaft.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; Aug 2, 2022 at 10:10 PM.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
If this 305 has flat top pistons .025" in the hole @TDC. then getting 10:1 cr is not that hard with milled heads to 56cc chamber and a .015" shim gasket.
Now you have a high perf street 305. 10:1 CR ready for a perf cam.
The dissatisfaction of most all 305 perf builds is the result of failure to take care of critical details that are not that hard.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
If this 305 has flat top pistons .025" in the hole @TDC. then getting 10:1 cr is not that hard with milled heads to 56cc chamber and a .015" shim gasket.
Now you have a high perf street 305. 10:1 CR ready for a perf cam.
The dissatisfaction of most all 305 perf builds is the result of failure to take care of critical details that are not that hard.
Agreed, my 305s have run great. One ran 15.01 @ 94 in a van and the same short block turned a 12.5 @ 110 in the 1980 Corvette with a 2spd powerglide and a 3.07 rear gear.
I think failure in most builds regardless of CID is failure to take care of essential details. I mean there are guys that have built sub 300 hp 454s too. I built and tuned a TBI 366 (267 equivalent of a big block since it has a 3.935" bore) once that had over 400 hp with a normal GM 454 TBI rather than the governed stock model. The small oval port heads had 2.06 valves and 236cc ports and flowed close to 270 cfm. It had domed factory pistons. I had the rotating assembly balanced to be able to run to ~5,000 rpm. A little cam upgrade was all it took to wake it up and let those heads breathe. That 366 has pulled a 1995 G30 cutaway class C RV pulling a ~ 4,000 lbs boat all across the US and Canada and made it to and from Alaska 6 times. Has 100K trouble free miles on what started as a $250 running unwanted big block. The 366 was built and swapped for $1,500. Was pulled out of a school bus RV conversion for a 12 valve swap.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Not to speak for the OP (but I will), don't overlook the fact that one of the facets of the original idea was the possibility of using regular gas.
No 10:1 iron headed engine , with a full and proper ignition curve , is going to run on 87. At least not from my experience. Sure, they will run and will stay out of detonation but you have to kill the timing to do so. And with it some measure of drivability and efficiency.
It was pointed here in this thread that the L03 OEM timing left something to be desired. I didn't say it, it was posted and sounds reasonable.
Just saying. I'm all for 10:1 too. But premium fuel would be a must I would say. At the very least it would offer a measure of protection if the time isn't quite right.
So where does that leave the OP with 9.3:1 and cam selection?
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Not to speak for the OP (but I will), don't overlook the fact that one of the facets of the original idea was the possibility of using regular gas.
No 10:1 iron headed engine , with a full and proper ignition curve , is going to run on 87. At least not from my experience. Sure, they will run and will stay out of detonation but you have to kill the timing to do so. And with it some measure of drivability and efficiency.
It was pointed here in this thread that the L03 OEM timing left something to be desired. I didn't say it, it was posted and sounds reasonable.
Just saying. I'm all for 10:1 too. But premium fuel would be a must I would say. At the very least it would offer a measure of protection if the time isn't quite right.
So where does that leave the OP with 9.3:1 and cam selection?
Personally I would use the 270HR and Rhoads V-Max lifters. Best of both worlds. I ran the equivalent flat tappet setup for ~50K miles in my 99 Tahoe. The dynamic compression ratio will be higher at lower rpm with the rhoads lifters but keep stiffer advance springs in the distributor and it will still make good torque. I pulled trailers with my Tahoe that had a 218/218 @ 0.050 cam in a 305 with Rhoads lifters. Made enough torque at 65 mph and 2,600 rpm in 3rd gear to go down the road happily moving over 10,000 lbs GCVW. That Tahoe never got anything but 87. With a shim style head gasket the Tahoe was 9.6 or 9.7:1. I later put Etec170s on it that had been warped that had to be cut. They had 60cc chambers. 305 really got with the program with the Etecs and more timing. I never put it on the dyno with the Etecs but it went from 270-280 gms/sec reported airflow to 310-320 which is usually about ~40 hp gain.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by Fast355
Personally I would use the 270HR and Rhoads V-Max lifters. Best of both worlds. I ran the equivalent flat tappet setup for ~50K miles in my 99 Tahoe. The dynamic compression ratio will be higher at lower rpm with the rhoads lifters but keep stiffer advance springs in the distributor and it will still make good torque. I pulled trailers with my Tahoe that had a 218/218 @ 0.050 cam in a 305 with Rhoads lifters. Made enough torque at 65 mph and 2,600 rpm in 3rd gear to go down the road happily moving over 10,000 lbs GCVW. That Tahoe never got anything but 87. With a shim style head gasket the Tahoe was 9.6 or 9.7:1. I later put Etec170s on it that had been warped that had to be cut. They had 60cc chambers. 305 really got with the program with the Etecs and more timing. I never put it on the dyno with the Etecs but it went from 270-280 gms/sec reported airflow to 310-320 which is usually about ~40 hp gain.
I think the 270HR is a good option.
That said, leaving the Rhoades lifters out of it for the moment, what CR would you try and target?
At 9.3 it looks to be a good fit on a 106 ICL.
For a little more pop, it could advanced to 104 although I'm not sure to what benefit.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Speaking from alot of experience. Coolant temperature and spark plug heat range is going to have a big effect on the octane requirement once you get to the edge. I would start with a 42 equivalent heat range and try to keep it in the 170-180F range. Stock 305 Vortec runs a 44 heat range and operates at 210-220°F. Factory timing advance is 20° at WOT on a L30 with up to 44° at cruise.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
I think the 270HR is a good option.
That said, leaving the Rhoades lifters out of it for the moment, what CR would you try and target?
Whatever it is with a 0.040-0.045 quench. I have seen carbon knocked off the pistons at 0.036" from the piston rocking in the bore. I target quench rather than static compression. I will run a higher static with a thinner gasket to get good quench. My 383 is 0.041" quench.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
I'm all for good quench too. This is something I'll have to address soon as I'm looking at .034-.035" with a tight fitting forged piston. That's cutting pretty fine.
As for the OP's 305, I can't say how much leeway there'll be to establish a tight piston to head clearance. IIRC, the short block is stock so that means a minimum of .025" down to start. A shim gasket might be iffy pending the condition of block deck.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what Mortorq is making of all of this.
And it still remains to be seen what's available and that's the subject line of the thread in the first place.
Re: Cam shortage, this ok for stoplite to stoplite?
Originally Posted by skinny z
As for the OP's 305, I can't say how much leeway there'll be to establish a tight piston to head clearance. IIRC, the short block is stock so that means a minimum of .025" down to start. A shim gasket might be iffy pending the condition of block deck..
.025" in the hole is pretty std. with the L03? What do find "iffy" about the shim gasket? In my planing, I had asked F-BIRD '88 about those before. Can't find one for a 305 anymore, so he recommended a 350 head gasket that works...Felpro gasket #1094.
Originally Posted by skinny z
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what Mortorq is making of all of this.
And it still remains to be seen what's available and that's the subject line of the thread in the first place.
Indeed. Very anxious to see how this all works out, what he's able to buy, and how it all works. A little preview of what mine might run like.
Marlin says "There are a lot of variables in this build. We'll wait safely here while Mortorq makes all the tough decisions".
