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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
[RantOn]
In the late '80's-'90's, you got just enough tech to make cars substantially better (perf, mpg, handling, build, rust, amenities, etc)....but not so much that it wrecked the thing. I hate new cars. I used to pour over car mags...every one I could get my hands on, all the time. Now? Now mags are mostly gone, but I don't look at any literature covering anything new, b/c I don't GAF. Zero interest. What happened!?
We got this late model truck at work right now....some times, it won't go above idle -throttle pedal isn't working. We don't know why. Remember throttle cables? Ahhhh...they worked pretty good for about 100 years or so? Now we got this sh!tbox truck that won't move...no idea how to fix it. We open tomorrow, Ski Patrol needs it to shuttle patients. Pretty cool.
We got this 6.7 Powerstroke shuttle bus. It keeps throwing NOx sensor codes, and de-rating to idle only. We think it's the NOx sensors. Back ordered for 6 mos. Our other (weak) theory was contaminated DEF, so we dropped the DEF tank today, dumped, cleaned, installed and filled. Haven't tested yet, but it'll likely de-rate tomorrow with customers aboard. LOVE that ****. Who wouldn't!?
We got these new cats at work....they have tech. Touch screens that are way too bright at night...operators throw a jacket over them so they can work (groom). The display is SUPER KEWL, b/c it eliminated the pesky stereo, HVAC controls, all lighting switches, all gauges/warnings....so instead of using your tactile functions and feeling for the heater switch, you have to stop the cat, (or just stop focusing on where/how you're operating it), remove the jacket from the screen, touch the wrench icon, then the defrost looking icon, then you can change the heater settings...then hit the house icon to get back to the animation of a snow cat driving screen w/a faux tach next to the cat animation. DUMB. And let me tell you....these things can throw some DTC's!!! They'll throw 50+ codes b/c the battery is low. 5 DTC's if the coolant trips the low level sensor on the hill. One of 'em was down on hill this winter, threw 134 DTC's, and wouldn't do anything except the engine would run. Blade wouldn't move, tiller 10-7, couldn't drive it, winch wouldn't do anything, I got 134 DTC's though! Where does one even start with that?? Ahhhh....good times.
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I remember when I looked forward to new-model releases b/c the new tech made a substantial improvement in the vehicle. Substantial. 80's cars getting OD? EFI? Tires that weren't 65 aspect sidewalls? Rear disk brakes? Those changes represent substantial improvements. In the cats, hydrostatic drive, the flex tiller, 12-way blade, EFI, electronic drive, a fiberglass cab with sound deadening and good seats? SUBSTANTIAL.
Now, new models....I don't even want to see them. "Improvements" are marginal at best, typically debatable and a god damned handicap at worst. Our latest cat has 27 buttons on the joy stick. 27, people!! And worse, many of those buttons have multiple functions. The thing has a fob that you press down into a recess until it "clicks", locking it in...the cat powers up. It takes no less than three tries to get that fob out. Every time. We had one cat that went down on hill, cat wouldn't recognize the FOB; push it in, you get a black screen w/a white outline of a key. Cat won't start, can't diag anything.....WTF was wrong with a KEY!? Keys worked pretty good for, IDK....120 years or so? These things are up to $500k now, you get a ****-pile of tech that costs money, breaks, renders the cat unusable.....and contributes NOTHING to the product or performance of the vehicle! We had cats 20 years ago that left the same groomed pass, at about the same speed, and used about the same amount of fuel doing it, as we do today. So what does today's new model give us? Admittedly, clean emissions .....and then a heaping pile of cow-dung tech that breaks and doesn't contribute jack chit.
Same with cars. Electric E-f'n gas pedals, apple f'n car play, animations in the f'n dash board? Modes! Settings! Configurations! Graphics! None of it has anything to do with driving. Infotainment systems that have to "boot up" (?), then sound like poo when they finally start producing sound. Even HVAC systems have to "boot up" now days...and you got to wait for the f'n heater fan to change speeds!! What was wrong with a fan switch!?
Fake engine sounds, drivers "ASSist", seats vibrating when you steer, car slamming on your brakes when someone's turning ahead of you....oh man. New models? I don't even want to see 'em anymore and it's because they've got nothing good to offer -nothing that's enhancing the driving experience, but rather a butt-load of crap that hinders the driving experience. I don't even want to see it.
Yep....we had it pretty good in the '90's....yet we had to want "more". We got it. Tom's having a rough day today. [/Rant-off]
Is there a take away to all ^that^ "whinnin' ambition"? Yes. You guys, it's awesome that everyone here has a nice 3rd gen. Awesome, fun, visceral....wicked cool cars. Keep 'em running, keep keepin' 'em nice, and appreciate them for what they are; an honest, direct, analog, exciting driving experience that you can not buy anymore. Any headaches they give us? WORTH IT!
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; May 7, 2024 at 10:13 AM.
AMEN... My newest vehicle is 2007 and that one is bad enough with a BCU and other BS,,, you would like my 1917 Dodge-if battery is low you can start it with the hand crank No electronics anywhere on my little 30HP Chinese made bulldozer from 2000-suspect metalurgy, but always starts right up and works when needed.
Yeah, vehicles became rolling computer networks 20 years ago and I have never been interested in that. Maybe it's because that's what I troubleshoot for a living (minus the rolling part), but honestly I just think it's dumb to trust my life on the road to a system so needlessly complex that a side of the road diagnosis and trip to the local auto parts store is out of the question.
Not to mention the cost and availability of replacement parts. Random road debris takes out a fender and headlight assembly? Easy multi-thousand dollar repair.
They cost more to buy, more to maintain, more to insure. Touchscreens replacing physical buttons is the worst, and you have to have backup cameras to assist with the otherwise total lack of visibility. And you have to step foot into a car dealership (cringe) and interact with cocaine-fueled charlatans to get one. Hard pass.
I love my old cars and trucks. Simple. My biggest complaint is the lack of quality aftermarket parts. Been saying for years that I can keep all my old stuff running forever if I can just find some decent repair parts.
This digital revolution is utterly ridiculous. I drove a new van the other day and all the heater/ac and fan controls were touch screen. Just trying to change the cabin air fan speed required several touches on the screen and then dragging your finger up/down the screen. Impossible to do without staring at the screen, which means taking your eyes off the road for seconds, all just to adjust the fan speed. That isn't safe and isn't even convenient.
One of my next restoration projects is a 1951 Chevy 3/4 ton truck. Gonna drive it until the day I die. Might even ditch all my 1980s stuff in favor of it.
The option will always exist to build something truly old school.
That said, there are many benefits to modern tech. On a simple note, a distributor that can be programmed from your phone is certainly easier on one's constitution than messing with weights, springs, advance stops, vacuum cans, lather rinse and repeat. That idea follows with induction. If you've ever truly been deep into a carburetor, you'll understand that they're not the simple device they're made out to be. Jets, PV's, two sets of air bleeds, emulsion circuits, etc and so forth. Compare that to a self learning laptop assisted EFI setup and it makes the labour component somewhat more manageable.
But I get Tom's point in it's entirety. Why drive by wire? Why not a simple ignition key? Actually, I know why but that's a discussion for another day.
But if you check on anything that I've posted, I'm still firmly building the same "school" of engine that I first built in college. Lets call that decades ago. So you can eschew modern tech if you want to. True daily drivers...maybe not so much though. Then again, my daily is an 06 Chevy truck. Primitive by today's standards.
Now, how about our brothers and sisters that swap fully computerized LS engines into 3rd gens...?
Really nice rants!
The newest vehicle in my household, (my wife and i have 6,) is my daily, a 15 Silverado Crew half ton. It has more than enough tech, and all i need. I will never buy anything newer. I'm 70, so I call that a luxury. I disabled active fuel management, am approaching 200K miles, and its been near flawlesd except for routine maintenance.
once in a while an electronic gremlin visits, bet he usually only sticks around for a couple of trips or a couple of days.
Glad y'all enjoyed the read. I could go on and on. The stuff my crew and I see at work is mind blowing. One cat w/heater controls in the touch screen, blower stopped working 5 hours into the start of the season we're just coming out of. Then wouldn't shut off -even after the cat was shut down and FOB removed. Run the batt's dead. Kewl. This ended up putting the cat down for over a month -almost into Christmas vacation week. We checked all the basics/wiring...what WE knew to check, then called the dealer. Dealer techs spent ~90 hours (three days, three techs) working on it; they replaced the touch screen, ACU -a module under the dash that I assume interfaces w/the touch screen and makes a PWM output for the blower motor(s)? They replaced that three times and programmed it 3 times. They changed both blower motors (brushless, of course) and when through both wiring harnesses from end to end...then they gave up and left. At that point the fans would run on LOW, 100% of the time, key on or off, and run the batteries dead, unless the master sw was shut off.
We fixed it by installing two, brushed fan motors, a 4 position heater fan switch, home made harnesses, and two resistor packs...all parts sourced from the "other brand's" parts bin. That got the cat up and it's worked flawlessly all winter, since our retro tech mod. And for all that, what's the OE system get you? Touch screen ($5000), ACU ($3000+tech time to program+travel time$1500), not one, but TWO brushless heater motors($1025 ea)....and is the heat any better than the systems that came before it? NO! No it's not! In fact in this case, it was worthless and the cat was down for a over month, unusable b/c it had no heat. This stuff makes zero sense, and it's totally NOT WORTH IT. I'd really like to hear an engineer explain the ROI on implementing the system above.
We got this chevy truck, a while back something went wrong w/the RAP. You'd shut the truck off, remove the key, open the door....radio keeps playing. RAP never shuts off. Door switch, right? We tested the door switch, good. Door harness, good. Right side door switch and harness. Good. Tested the dash/door harness and switch from the BCM to the door switch and back. Both sides. The whole circuit was good, both sides. Three of us tested to make sure. What comes after that? WE don't know! Send it to the dealer. Dealer put in 5 hours of labor (with factory support, we were told) and finally diag'd the....what? What did they diag?
Well, of course it was the wiper control module! Right? I mean, shouldn't the wiper control module be your first check when the RAP stays on?? Sometimes when you get help like that, you hear the root cause, and think, "Ohhhh damn, yeah, that makes sense! I should have known/checked that!" Not this time. My whole shop was like, "Damn...how would one ever get to the wiper control module, when chasing a RAP issues??" We never would have. Remember when wiper motors worked off of a fuse, couple switches and maybe a relay or two? Yeah....that worked pretty good for about 60 years or so, but we had to go and F THAT all up!
I can put an end to this rant very easily, but it's so enjoyable that I'm going to add something really spot-on!
I'm 70. My wife is coming up on 65. We've been married 36 years.
Almost every morning, when making toast, we use a GE Chrome Toaster, all Bakelite ***** and handles, original cord and plug. Never fails us. Makes perfect toast.
It was a gift to my parents on the occasion of their wedding. When, you ask? 1950. The toaster is 74 years old, and continues to make perfect toast. No electronics, no circuit boards. Basically just a variable rheostat and coils.
I have no doubt that other's have their own opinions about the kind of tech that I'm sharing here, I figured this thread had about a 50/50 chance of being well received and enjoyed, or I get flamed...."Shadap...Boomer!"
But let me share something that is pretty shocking (to me) ...and compelling. Now this is only related to the heavy equipment (snow cats) in my rant....it doesn't pertain to general vehicles (cars), and I haven't gathered enough data in our fleet to make the same comparison w/ pickup trucks yet....I'd guess our newer trucks are about as reliable as our older ones. But w/regard to my whinin' ambition about the snow cats, I have a legitimate point; it's not just bitchin'.
Why do we turn over/buy new snow cats? To reduce down time and maintenance cost. How's that working? Well, our fleet (16 cats) is starkly divided into two categories: "old" cats and "new" cats. The old cats are all a 20 year old platform and hover around 10,000 hrs currently. The new cats are all the most recent/current platform, and average around 3k hrs or so?
*This season, our "old cats" are running slightly less $/hr in maintenance costs ($16.56 vs. 18.30 $/hr), than our "new cats" -data generated by our fleet management system. What gives?
*There is also down time; Our “new cats” have averaged 509 hrs, while the old, "hi mile" cats have averaged 144 hrs of down time, this season .
*Finally, just gettin' back to the barn!....the "new" cats have been “Down on hill” (meaning, we show up in the am and there is a cat broke down/stuck on the hill) 5 times more than our “old cats” (15x vs. 3x), this season.
This trend doesn't make for a compelling case to buy $500k new cats. Quite literally, the old skool, high hour machines are gettin' it done while the new one$ are $itting in the $hop, getting fixed and con$uming resource$. Or, we're up towin' 'em off the hill, instead of doing PM. Aside from the humor of it, it's really quite frustrating and why....
So spot on about every aspect of newer stuff in general.
The newer the vehicle, the worse it's gotten. Everything seems to be tied to everything else and it's like a old strand of Christmas lights. One fails, nothing else works.
So sick of having to to dig through everything electrical on the car to diagnose what's wrong.
Older vehicles are easier to troubleshoot, it's easier to repair and keep on the road. I don't think newer vehicles will have the life that older cars do because they'll be unfixable. Too many very specific components for the aftermarket to deal with. And replacement parts will need to be flashed with the correct software which nobody will be able to do.
I have a 2012 F150 and my dealer has already told me they won't work on it because it is too old. Still an awesome truck, but it's going to become un-repairable and I won't be able to keep it as long as I would like.
I've had one BCM fail and replacement had to be scrounged from a junkyard. Could not get a new one and the vehicle was only 10 years old at the time. Multiply that by however many controllers are on that truck and you've got a serious problem festering.
Thanks for saying what I've been thinking! I recently rented a new Jeep Wagoneer since I had visitors and needed more seating capacity. It took me over 5 minutes just to program the dash to look "normal". And to change heater/fan speeds having to use a touch screen to do anything-while you're driving...how did this crap ever pass a safety review? With all the laws on cell phone/distracted driving it's unbelievable that they have added all this crap! I will never buy another new car again.
Was a GM dealership mechanic right out of high school in 1966, first for an Olds dealership and then a Chevrolet dealership. When I look back on those times, I LOL @ how easy it was to diagnose any problem that came in. That all started changing in the mid-'80s and has gone straight downhill since. While modern automotive electronics technology---and all the control modules (in some cars even one for just taillights), computers, CAN buss, et al---has provided easy access to 4-5-6-700 hp cars that still get 20 MPG on the highway and idle calmly in traffic with the AC and stereo blasting, it has also brough along a nightmare list of potential troubleshooting problems, the most severe of which seem to occur at dealership level.
Almost on a weekly basis, stories of wholesale recalls for hundreds of thousands of vehicles for often serious technical problems are seen on the interwebs from one marque after another. Even high-dollar scan equipment---along with a paywall to the manufacturers' tech lines--- can only provide a rough direction in which to start looking for a problem. And even with 'right-to-repair' laws in most states, they provide no guarantee that the manufacturer will provide any help to joe average.
Where all this is headed is IMO, to throw-away vehicles that have no soul or any defining character from one brand to the next. We just witnessed the demise of the Camaro carline; who's next?
The short of it.......DO NOT buy any new vehicles. Between the electronics, soybean covered wiring, and lack of qualified techs coming INTO the maintenance arena........in 5-10 years there will literally be NOBODY to repair this stuff! I have my older projects sitting and will be perfectly happy to completely restore and enjoy driving those.
Sidenote......I'm certain less than 500k could completely refurbish an older Cat or 2. Analog reliability.
There were crappy cars then, there are crappy cars now.
but if you think modern cars don’t drive well you’d be wrong there. On average modern cars have performance envelopes significantly better in all aspects.
My Focus RS is boring, said no-one who ever sat behind the wheel and chucked it through some curves or ran it through the gears. It’s hands down the most responsive and rewarding car I’ve ever driven. Does everything you ask of it and through the steering wheel you can feels the difference between road markings, and pavement. It is alive.
Drive a friends 22 1LE SS for almost 100 miles on a road trip and came away seriously impressed and contemplating a purchase.
Drove a GT350 at Road America. it was a riot, and the 8200rpm redline was addictive. Superb handling. Softer than the 1LE. The 1LE is the better driver’s car.
My Tesla Plaid? I’ll agree there. It’s soulless, no matter how fast it is. Numb steering, poor seats, understeer city. But it is mind breakingly fast. On a 0-60 run it maintains almost 1.3G acceleration all the way to 60. I clocked a 2.13 second run to 60 just yesterday on my way to a 9.61 @ 144. All on an unprepped surface.
I get the touch screen hate. It’s great for some things but **** poor for tactile feedback MFGs need to rethink touch screen only.
I bought an '06 'Vette, brand new. It was the boringest fast car ever made. Yep, it was. THEN....there were all the insanely annoying "features" that it had as baggage. I don't miss that car at all.
Haven't driven a GT350 or a late Camaro and never will.
I bought an '06 'Vette, brand new. It was the boringest fast car ever made. Yep, it was. THEN....there were all the insanely annoying "features" that it had as baggage. I don't miss that car at all.
Haven't driven a GT350 or a late Camaro and never will.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone describe a C6 Z06 as boring.
considering how everyone is waxing nostalgia about Analog cars the C6 is still an analog car.
And though at its core my RS is practically a rolling supercomputer, every single clock cycle is dedicated to driver enjoyment. The driving dynamics are transcendental. It always begs the driver to push that little bit harder. Brake later, turn in harder, get in throttle sooner. Nailing a perfect double clutched rev matched downshift before diving hard into a corner and getting on the power while exiting at seemingly physics defying speed.
Car just knows how to put a smile on anyone’s face.
I don't think I will ever own a full touch screen vehicle. I purchased a 21 Malibu RS for the wife. Specifically bought the RS cause it had less tech. Funny thing is GM forgot about the performance part and you get the same 1.5T as in every model... makes no sense. It has some driver assist which never gets turned on. Still has real gauges and *****!. I too have experienced the full screen control panel (screen) and just think it's dumb and will cause more crashes.
My daily is an 03 Silverado that I have owned since new. It was my turn for a new vehicle, we like to only have one payment, and I passed. The new Silverado has the full screen and digital gauges with some AFM witchcraft. I cleaned up and wrapped my 230K sunburn Silverado so it kinda felt new and bought a Vette!
I bought a 09 that has a lot of electronics but still has the old feel with analog gauges and a pretty cool old school nav that still works and uses a CD to work.
And though at its core my RS is practically a rolling supercomputer, every single clock cycle is dedicated to driver enjoyment. The driving dynamics are transcendental. It always begs the driver to push that little bit harder. Brake later, turn in harder, get in throttle sooner. Nailing a perfect double clutched rev matched downshift before diving hard into a corner and getting on the power while exiting at seemingly physics defying speed.
If nothing else your prose is delightful to read! Well done.
Writing skills aside, I still stand by my computer deleted 86 Camaro coupe complete with a full suite of analog old school gauges.
PS, that machine is missing absolutely NO guards or covers, as proven by these advertisements for it from back in 1957. I guess we really were smart enough back then to not go sticking our important bits into running machinery, VS today's people who need anything with more than 1 moving part plastered with "don't put your pecker in the fan" stickers. Recoil starter? Hell no, just wrap the rope around the pulley and pull it like ya got a pair....
My dad had a mower exactly like that when I was a kid. The "recoil" or rope start pulley scared the **** out of me...and I shocked the bejeezus out of myself trying to shut off the motor with the ground tab, once.
My C6 wasn't a Z06. It was a base/Z51. Went 12.86/112 in this rarified atmosphere...high 13's in my '92 are more fun, more satisfying and more rewarding.
For evidence of that, read THIS, and THIS TOO (same thread, just further down)
and then THAT
You can probably "feel" the difference in "stoke"?
Since the C6 had a goofy e-throttle, it wasn't "analog". It was like driving a robot. :vomit:
VS today's people who need anything with more than 1 moving part plastered with "don't put your pecker in the fan" stickers.
^^^^This.
One of my weight benches in my home gym has a tag on the back that states: "Contains urethane foam. Care should be exercised near open flames or with burning cigarettes."
One of my weight benches in my home gym has a tag on the back that states: "Contains urethane foam. Care should be exercised near open flames or with burning cigarettes."
I kid you not.
Well you know have to be extra careful while taking a blunt break during bench presses!!
I remember very well back in the 80s/early 90s the older crowd didn't want anything to do with that new fangled "fuel injection crap".If they didn't see that familiar round breather sitting on top of a carburetor when they opened the hood, they'd shake their head with a look of disgust. Any little issue was always "the computer is bad".
That's true, and an excellent point. I remember that also. I probably even thought that, myself. I remember parents, friends who thought that too. I also remember AC, power windows/locks, cruise, tilt, full gauges, good cloth seats all becoming attainable/affordable around that same era. Those features made cars a LOT nicer. Those features made a big difference.
I try to audit my own thinking on the matter....maybe it's me? Maybe I'd have thought the same thing in the 80's about ___________fill in the blank, w/80's "new" tech. Maybe. I can't remember what *I* thought about EFI, I recall it was a combination of hi tech/black magic, fear...and lust, b/c of the increased performance and cool appearance. What ever I thought of EFI in the '80's, there is a difference and that difference is found in the merit of the tech. Did EFI turn out to be better than carbs. Yes. Meaningfully better? Yeah, for a plethora of reasons; Your mom being able to start the car on a cold winter morning, every time....w/o flooding it, starving it, stalling it....that's (one way that it's) meaningfully better. Engine life went up, power went up, tq went up, maintenance (bi-seasonal tune ups) disappeared, Clearly better. Conversely, how about putting HVAC controls into a touch screen. Is that better than ***** that you can feel and turn with your fingers? Debatable, but I say no. Regardless of my opinion, the benefit is dubious at best, and it's a handicap/hazard, at worst. So is it meaningfully better? No. So now we got this gizmo that does what to cost? Drives cost UP. And the benefit is? Dubious...at best. Worth it? No.
^That was one example (using EFI that you brought up) there are tons of others. I kind of covered that thought in post #1 when I said:
new tech made a substantial improvement in the vehicle. Substantial. 80's cars getting OD? EFI? Tires that weren't 65 aspect sidewalls? Rear disk brakes? Less corrosive metals? Those changes represent substantial improvements.
I don't see touch screens, modules, programmable door window switches, etc....providing the same level of benefit to the operator, today. Many (not all) of today's tech "benefits" are relatively marginal, while the costs are exponential. Not worth it.
Anyway....that was a lot more blah-bitty-blah than I was thinking when I started typing.
Its all about the money. All of this tech and emissions stuff is what fails most of the time and there is money replacing it, The EPA is driving this country straight to the ground. People think the mechanics are the bad guys but theyre not... They dont like working on all that chit either. I should know, Ive been doing it 28 years now and I know several techs...all of us no longer surprised the next model of Silverado is dumber than the last. 4 banger turbo full size truck anyone? Cars are also too expensive and nobody wants them... and whats coming is worse. I just saw an ad for an Electric Vehicle 4 door CAMARO yesterday. I think were either being trolled or someone needs to be fired.
. Im so tired of idiots with short sighted inspiration leading the charge. Idiocracy is now reality. We should be solving more complex issues than talking about having stupidity being crammed down our throats 24/7.
We were poor when I was a kid in the 80s, so we always had old 70s land yachts like Thunderbirds and LTDs. When I'd see cars with multiport FI I thought it looked so modern and advanced and dreamed about owning one someday. I guess that's why it baffles me why people still take it off and replace it with a carb, it's like going backwards to me. But, on the other hand I don't like seeing third gens LS swapped either, but I understand some see the TPI as old and dated, just as I see carbs being that way.
I'm trying to remember when the first touch screens came out in the Buick Riviera, maybe '89 or so? It was somewhat video game like, but still amazing for the time. If that stuff messed up today I don't know how you'd fix it. Even the GTA with the digital dash and push button HVAC controls, I'm assuming must use some type of actuators to move the blend door, etc... similar to todays cars. Of course back then the commands didn't get routed through the cars computer, because the computers and OBD1 weren't quite advanced enough to handle the info.
It's not just you Tom that feels this way about the advances the automakers are shoving at us. I to feel the same way in that I would like it to be up to ME on how much of this I feel actually benefits me and how much I want to consume. Unfortunately for us who feel this way it's just going to get worse. I had a thought the other day, they now make senior pretty much everything, cell phones, remote controls etc. You think there would be a market for senior autos? New style, older tech?
Tom's having a rough day today. [/Rant-off]
No electronics anywhere on my little 30HP Chinese made bulldozer from 2000-suspect metalurgy, but always starts right up and works when needed. 
Sometimes when you get help like that, you hear the root cause, and think, "Ohhhh damn, yeah, that makes sense! I should have known/checked that!" Not this time. My whole shop was like, "Damn...how would one ever get to the wiper control module, when chasing a RAP issues??" We never would have. Remember when wiper motors worked off of a fuse, couple switches and maybe a relay or two? Yeah....that worked pretty good for about 60 years or so, but we had to go and F THAT all up! 
. 
