Seems to me, that the third generation (my favorite, best looking gen) was sadly the slowest one. We got shafted with the economy trend. Even our most powerful V8 the l98 kinda dissapointed... just m/o. Dont get me wrong i love the 3rd gen... but aint i right?

 

How does the L98 dissappoint you, you have to realize that the technology wasn't the best at the time like with the LS1s, but I think the L98 performs quite well, and with just a couple bolt ons and be a real performer. But yeah, stock most sucked, especially the LG4 and L03.

 

Well if you take a look at pre-emissions reg cars, those muscle engines put out so much torque! I just cant see why we had a 4cyl, and two small 6's as well... a 4litre 6 at least. I dunno, the l98 was good, youre right bout the technology thing.

 

From what I hear, a L98 can hang with a LT1 until about 80 MPH. Then the LT1 starts to edge out. I think thats good


I also heard of a slightly modded L98 hanging with a LS1 until 3rd gear.


All that is good if your gonna street race till about 70-80



Lets not forgot with the $ you save with a 3rdgen, you can make your l98 a LT1/LS1 Eater :lala:

 

pretty much so the 80's was a time that the car companys expecially GM had the struggle to get there stuff going, all the way up untill 81' gm was still all divided with all the companys still making all there own engines, most all the cars were completly diffrent in design and what not, also with GM going "corprate" to pinch pennys and with emmissions cracking down FI was the only thing they could do to get at least a hint of power out of the cars, you can see how its evolved from the CFI which was the first attempt which wasent the hottest and TB and TPI not bad, to the lt1 and the mighty ls1 bringing power back in full force. the 3rd gen really was un charted territory to GM from the past "put a big *** engine in it and make it go fast in a stright line" to having to really make power out of FI and things of the sort. sorta the learning years for GM you could say to make a car that can pass emmssions and still haul nuts which you can see with the new LS1 cars, but unfortunantly yes the 3rd gens were the slowest and had the weakest parts of all the gens stock,..but no fears, theres allways the aftermarket to fix that

 

What I don't understand is why we're falling behind. People (even a lot of LS1 drivers) don't generally write off fox mustangs for straight line performance. Why? Because a lot of them are modded and keep up with today's cars. Why are so many of us stock or near stock (myself included, although I'm on my way to remedying that problem)? The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with sbc's so put a little bit of work into them and earn some respect. Whenever I tell anyone who knows something what car I have, I usually get a response that goes something like, "Well, they are great handling cars..." (And I realize that the fox mustangs can't claim that) And also, the fox mustangs were either nothing or a 5.0; no TBI and TPI 305 (wish I had a 350 ).

I guess what I'm saying is that while we may not have the best stuff stock, it doesn't take a whole lot to make our stuff decent. It's like Mark is saying, with a couple of bolt-ons, our cars can be performers. I'm saying that most of us need to do those bolt-ons.

Something to consider: Compare the street racing board on this site to the kills boards on other sites like corral.net or cz28.com (LT1 is sbc with only a few differences). Our kills board is just not very exciting. Either we are smart and mostly race at the track , or most of our cars are not big performers compared to a lot of the other cars that are out there now. MOD YOUR CARS, PEOPLE! (Having said this, I know that my car will never be fast. It's a two edged sword--my 305 only has 20k miles and will be reliable for a long time; my 305 will last a long time and I'm not sure I want to spend the money on heads, cam for a 305, and I can't justify pulling a perfectly good sort-of-ok (performance-wise)motor to swap to something more fun.)

 

Let's not forget that there were some VERY slow 2nd gens as well. And some of the 350 1st gens are not as fast as some people would like to think. I'd put money on a stock 91-92 L98 with 3.42 gears over the stock 350 1st gens.

Compared to new cars, no our cars are not as fast stock. That's b/c of better technology and more efficiency, it SHOULD be this way. But I like knowing that my car looks better than 98% of the the new cars and performs better than 98% with just a few thousand dollars in mods, which are cheaper for our cars than new ones (ie. LS1's), not to mention that I don't have a car payment and my insurance is much lower. Also, I have a new engine and drivetrain and my engine is more powerful and about as efficient as an LS1, but cheaper.

 

all the gens had the slow and fast cars, yes the 1st and 2nds had **** slow ones also, they were a bit more diverce you could have your camaro or bird be a tame stright 6 or 3502bbl with a wonderful 2-speed power glide and 2.xx gears that would run 17's on a good day, same with the 2nds and 3rds with the mighty 4 banger and 6's,....as for corts comments, really what GM was going after with the 3rd gen was they knew no serious power was going to come any time soon so they wanted to focus on other areas in performance such as handleing, aerodynamics and braking, the other companys really were not doing alot about, as for the lt1's and ls1's and the kill storys really they are amazing cars, just the minor bolt ons like a cat back, k&n and mabey a converter and your running low 12's some full lenth headers and a dry shot of NOS were talking 10's something that can no way be achevied on a 3rd gen, or really any other gen expect the early monster big blocks, even tho the 3rd gens wern't the powerhouses in history dont get too down, GM knew what was going on with another car in the 80's and one of the best to ever roll out of detriot, if the ford guys give you and **** dont forget to tell them about the 3,800 lbs. black thing missing 2 cyls

 

I think the thirdgen had a special place in Scott Settlemire's (sp?) heart. Isn't funny how just about anything from a 4th gen will work on a 3rdgen? Think about how many parts can be swapped. The rear-ends, motors, the T-56 is prolly the greatest one that can be swapped. They may have not been the best factory performers but certainly not the worst. And GM helped alot with the 4th gens because all that stuff goes in like it was meant too.

also don't forget about the mid to late 70's when the 150hp 350 was out roaming the streets

 

Yes, actually you are correct. Stock, or stockish Thirdgens are pathetically slow, even the 350's. When I go cruising I never take other thirdgens seriously to race because except for RARE exceptions (Tim burgess and maybe Willie, but no offense guys, you never bring your cars out anymore and even when you did you NEVER cruised or race anyone) every single one I've seen on race night or at the drags would be a complete waste of my time. Its fun to play with them tho....cruise up in my formula next to some U of A preps in an 89 GTA...he sees the Formula badge and gives me the look like......"yeah buddy, but I've got a GGGG TTTTT AAA!! that means its FAST!" Basically, thirdgens are a good foundation to build something ELSE......you practically have to replace every part on the motor to make it perform, so really in the end you have an entirely different motor than the factory put in the car.....Not to mention the drivetrain....the T-5 is an AWESOME tranny in my book...still holding up strong in my firebird..however the 700R4 IMHO is TOTAL garbage unless its one of those 3 thousand dollar aftermarket jobs. And the 1st to 2nd gear drop in a 700R4 is just not good for drag racing..you need close ratio. Thats why I dropped a Th350 in my GF's camaro after the 700R4 took a crap. Not to mention Th350 are dirt cheap. Even tho 1st gear got slower, overall the car was setup better, and when I swapped in a V-6 3.42 rear, the car really hauls but now.

However........slow as they may be stock, if you've got half a brain, you could easily make one perform, I just turned my girlfriends 17 second 305 R.eally S.low into a 14 second screamer in about 2 months time.....and thats with a 305! That car is SOOOO *** damn fun to cruise cuz it looks even more innocent than my firebird and when I tell people its a 305 they laugh.

 

i'd have to agree with Chris, rarely any Thirdgen around here poses a threat. Don't get me wrong, i love my car, but GM must have had there heads up there asses in the performance department during the 80's. They tried to mask a weak motor by putting an OD tranny in (look at the first gear ratio) and bumped the rear gearing up a bit. Main problem, tranny is weak and the 7.5 is a tiny passenger car rear. To make matters worse, to do the time tested upgrade to a Ford 9" or even 12 bolt now costs an arm and a leg thanks to the peachy torque arm set-up. Gotta love those single exhausts too. Just to prove the point, look at the 80's mustang from a performance stand point. Factory forged pistons, roller cam, and at least Ford realized there 7.5 inch mistake and brought out the 8.8" rear in 86. I like all makes of cars and I'll stick with my Camaro, but goddamn, for a car i love, it costs so damn much to upgrade to QUALITY parts that will stand up to abuse.

 

Nah, all Gens had their own problems and slow and fast cars. There were 2nd Gens that were unbelievably slow for their ci. I wouldn't call 245HP, 345TQ, and 14.1-14.4 for the top models in the 80's slow. I mean they were faster than or right there with some of the 1st and early 2nd Gens top models, with more ci. even. (I'm talking L98 and LB9 5-Speed) They can hang right there with many of the faster cars today stock, (although LT1's and LS1's pull away on the top end) also and have incredible low RPM TQ, and many more positives. (handling, braking, coefficiant drag, looks, OD, pretty good gas mileage, and so on..) They are cheaper and easier to make fast for the $ obviously. So start modding and go beat some LT1's and LS1's.

 

I'll admit later model years did have decent power output, but from a strength aspect they shot themselves in the foot. Even some of the slow 2nd gens at least had 8.5 diffs, could put true duals under there, even swapping trannies were easier as there was no need for a "torque arm mounting kit". I guess as a serious "drag" or high horse application, it is just a poor platform to build from, from a $$ stand point at least. If the Camaro was the "performance" car, why did GM reuse a puny 70's throwback rearend that started in the 4-banger Vega's and Astres?

 

The 9 bolt was the rear to have, theres a few here running some nice times with them too.

 

Why does GM do the **** it does. Profit and regulations. Most of the reason why the 4th gens are excellent performers and have efficient engines is from experimentation on the mid/late 2nd gens and third-gens. GM had to somehow combine emission regulations, efficiency(mileage), and still have performance--and still turn a bit of a profit.

 

well "nice" times are relative. No matter what you throw on a 7.5 or a 9 bolt, i wouldn't count on them last for a 11 or 10 sec ride. As far as i know you can't even get a spool for either rear, and i'm not talking about that dirt track mini spool junk. Also from what i gathered from reading the board, aren't the Borg Warner 9 bolt parts expensive AND hard to come by?

 

Yeah they are, and the "nice" 1's are in the low 12's-11's.

 

I have owned everything from Mustang's to Vette's to Cadillac's. I can say that I have owned faster cars.....

The 3rd gen has the TQ that I want to drive around town. It may not be a race car, but it sure the h e l l gets around traffic.

It's nice to know that our biggest competition out there is the newer generations of our own F-Bodies. The new Mustangs are a challenge, but any 3rd genner with bolt-ons knows that a late model Mustang is easy prey. Line up agaisnt a Cobra, however, you'd better be ready to have your @ss handed to you

Third gens are what everyone expects them to be.... old, nice looking, decent handling, and lacking serious power. If I wasn't a TQ junkie I'd do away with the long runner TPI setup and just go carbed.

The positive points have been made- no car payment, cheap insurance, classic looks, and decent performance. Let's focus on the bad points. They rattle, creak, squeak, leak, and they are restricted by the TPI (when equipped). They have heavy doors that droop after years of use. They scrape on almost every driveway you approach. They cost big $$ to mod the TPI intake and they still are slow by comparison when modded.

My point is this..... I am used to being the underdog now because of the vehicle I choose to enjoy.

 

I'd probably be grabbing my posterior if driving the old stock TA, but it's really pretty easy to make a Snake go limp with a few mods in a beater. The newer Cobras with the tinkertoy 4.6 Romeo engine are no match for a few machined parts. They take the first 50-60' by shear weight advantage, but then...



At least I can store a lot of them in my trunk for extra traction.

The same modifications for less than $2K in a ThirdGen or 4th-Gen 'F' car will skin "Snakes" all day long. You could feed the hungry on snake meat forever. Just think of the societal benefits, thus the justification for having all those Dorfs cruising around on the roads, like the lower elements of the food chain that they are.

Even the guys who drive these POS cars admit that to keep up they need to revert to the old 302, and then stroke it to a 347 to make enough power to compete. This doesn't begin to mention the nice flexible bodies, poor durability overall, tendency to rot out from the bottom up, poor weight distribution, etc. Try to get one of these to slalom with even a stock ThirdGen and not lose it. O.K. - our cars were not "all that" right out of the box, but it certainly helps to start with a better platform. Think about it - would the world speed record attempt have been made with a stock body that wasn't superior? Why then, was a ThirdGen Formula used instead of the Mousetank? And it STILL holds the record, ten freakkin' years later! Bring it on, Horse-Boy...

And don't even start with me about the fact that more people buy the Dorfs than 'F' cars. More people buy Stupid Useless Vehicles than Corvettes, but not many knowledgeable people would argue that the SUV is technologically superior, or even safer. The motoring public just isn't that well educated, and decide more often on the radio, color, and cup holders than real design superiority. How else could anyone explain the Mitsubishi? I'm done.

 

Well said Vader!

 

what the big deal with beating 4th gens......seriously they help out ALOT when it comes to rice eating.....I think there is a hidden issue here.....you see the 4th gens as better so you want to show them up.....why don't you try to make friends with them...(that sounds really gay) they could be useful tools to help promote the f-body line. We should be concentrating on beating ricers not each other....included the 'stangs.

 

i did mod my car.:hail:

BTW i'm moving to this board cuz i'm tired of the 4th genners at camaroz28.com lol

 

This is sort of what I was saying (although I don't think I said it very well). Our cars look and handle great and it's great that GM made our cars shine in areas other than straight line performance, in which GM knew the cars would be lacking. And yeah, obviously as the some of GM's first FI systems produced, our cars were the experiments. We just all need to mod our guinea pigs so that the street racing board is not filled with cam/bird vs. econobox posts.

BTW Vader and IROC57TPI, there are some fast cars at corral.net, mod motors and 5.0s.

Edit: TempestT68, I don't think the fourth gens have any slow cars

 

IROCZTWENTYGR8..........i said 10 or 11 not 11 or 12 sec. That 1 sec difference accounts for quite the difference in power. My point is, yes you could run the number, but I'd like to see how long it lasts behind a powerful motor with a high stall and slicks. I cringe every time i leave the line, just hoping one of my wheels doesn't pass me. :P. Why don't i upgrade? well when the mustang guys i know can buy 31 spline axles c- clip eliminators and a spool for $1000 Cdn here and RELIABLY run low tens (10.06 on nitrous i do believe) and a complete Moser 9" with nothing fancy is going to run me a hair under $3000 CDN MY COST AT WORK...you do the math....my pockets aren't that deep at this time. I love the way these cars drive and handle, but put any SERIOUS power into them, pretty much everything needs to be ripped out. Guess i just like being the underdog

 

I like to see a stock SNAKE hand me my @ss. I have a total of 4000.00 in mine!!! The only complaint I have about the third gen is the RIDE. I currantly have 2nd gen also. You guys think these cars are pooches? Should have had the mighty mid 70s T/As. 400 ci pontiacs or the 403 olds. Most had all of 180/185 hp. Hey but they would run with the vettes from that era. If you had the mighty 220 hp T/A, with 323 gears, THAT WAS PERFORMANCE.

 

Like low 12's-high 11's aren't good enough for the street, and like M*****gs don't need all kinds of s**t too.

 

The best selling models of z's and Trans Ams were in the "disco" era of 78-79. They were no faster than a 305 TPI car, even with 400's or 403's. Maybe slower. Followed by the same whale body style with early smog 305's in 80-81, but early 80's Mustangs were certainly no better.

The Third gen cars were much lighter, much better driving, handling and just generally better cars to live with, but also the first Camaro/Firebird to come standard with a 4 Cylinder!! (not for long, it was killed later)

What we have with the third gen cars is a great canvas to paint on. Very well balanced with a Small Block, all kinds of creature comforts, and the lightest F bodies since the 1st gens, which were definately not great handlers stock. Yes, we have to deal with the engines, but the 4th gen cars were taken directly from the 3rd gen drawings and modified.

And the irony is, now that the 4th gens have the best of all worlds (except styling, in my opinion) nobody will buy them. The slugs of '78-79' sold more units by far than any other year, and were some of the slowest. The fast cars are being discontinued.

 

correct on the best selling of all time was the 79 t/a with over 225,000 T/a's alone were sold not to mention the rest of the firebird line. the 77-79 birds with the 400 4-speeds were solid 14 second cars, forsure no slowpokes in there time

 

The early 4th gens were FUGLY! The later ones much better looking. But our generation is indeed the one with the most style... damn, didnt expect this thread to catch so well.

 

high 11's low 12's AREN'T enough for me. We have street cars here running mid 9's. You seem to be missing my point. ANYTHING factory on these cars cannot be upgraded WITHOUT spending a crapload of money. I know strength, and durability cost money, but why is our car priced so much MORE than other models. Also you don't necessarily need to change everything to go fast. Buddy here has a mustang GT that ran 11.80's on nitrous COMPLETELY stock motor with 200 000 kms. Motor has never been opened, damn, he even had the stock airbox and a crappy paper air filter . He ran like that for 2 years, he's building a 408 now, and the original 302 sits happily in the corner of his garage, still running perfectly. He also drove 2500+ miles to bowling green for a show, made numerous sprayed passes then drove home. Only problem was tire blowout. Now try that with a carbed 305. Either your engine tranny or diff is gonna go. I like upgrading FACTORY parts and try to save some money but still have a reliable car. Yes a 700R4 can be upgrade, but price wise it makes more sense to drop a th350 or 400 in. Same with the 7.5, you can drop all you want into it, but in the end it's still a puny 7.5. Having a roof over my head and paying bills eating etc. takes priority over having a fast car. I enjoy driving my car and couldn't bear to have it parked for a whole summer just cause I'm saving for a completely overpriced rearend or what have you. Keep in mind I'm also in Canada, so prices are like 100X what you guys pay, and that's with even getting my parts at cost through work.

BTW, there is never such a thing as "fast enough"

 

I would like to quote SA design's "How to install and use nitrous" book. One section they demonstrated a buget street car buildup.

Thirdgen Fbodies are great if you want to go decenly quick (12's- 11s) for cheap. You can easily do it for as cheap or cheaper than a Fox stang. Besides that, they look better, cruise better and are still an excellant choice for 'being different'
Everyone takes notice when they see a clean thirdgen roll by.

Once you start looking to go real fast like crazy rob is saying, then yes thirdgen lose their cost effective appeal.

 

<b>ChrisFormula355:
Basically, thirdgens are a good foundation to build something ELSE......you practically have to replace every part on the motor to make it perform, so really in the end you have an entirely different motor than the factory put in the car...</b>
A point to build on. And to be proud of... It may seem difficult but its really NOT all that hard to rip out the old, rebuild, and drop in a new one. (engine) same for the tranny. Th350's drop right in with a driveshaft change / little torque arm welding. and the 9-Bolt IS hard to get parts for, but will hold its own in the low 11 runs, but slicks seem to eat them up.
A set of sub-frame connectors is all you REALLY REALLY need to keep from tearing **** up, but obviouselly if you want traction / performance you need new suspension.
thats about it, I did (am DOING) mine for around $12,000...
And it will run low 11's / was running low 12's before blower / forged internals.
Now compare the COST factor. I said 12,000. Most of you can BUY a REALLY NICE thirdgen for less than 3/10th that price. Keep in mind my car is streetable, gas mileage conservative, street tires, etc... and compare that cost to all your other "fast factory cars"
My friend prices a 2002 SS camaro today. $31,000. this is a STOCK car we are talking about, running mid 13's! now look at the Import sections. Eclipse TaLoN TSi over $25,000... UPgrade your turbo T3/T4 hybrid after everything over $33,000 Invested. Still running high 11's. The magical LS-1 engine, nitrous, gears, suspension, drag radials, cam, heads, chip later still running mid - low 11's. and that stuff is EXPENSIVE.

I say our thirdgens not only have more POSSIBILITY built into them, they are more versatile, better looking, and overall CHEAPER to deal with than ANYTHING out there. Name a car that meets all of the above i mentioned, for less than a few grand.

 

i don't see how you can compare a NEWER car to a model that started 20 years ago. Anything new in the after market is expensive first off. 4th gens have awesome engines, but they still could use a little work, then again what couldn't.

 

Yeah, mustangs are so great to make relaibvle power in. Sure they have forged pistons so you can spray the hell out of. Nevermind that the block splits in half at 450-500hp. Details details.

I don't think i'd like an 8.8 in a 9 second car either.

And of course suspension stuff for an f-body is more, it's a true GT car, not a gay escort body kit on a sedan unibody.

And if i was trying to build a hot motor, i'll take chevy longblock parts prices over the ford, thanks.

Damn, why do 4th gens go so fast for cheap. Hmmmm, maybe it's cuz they come stock w/ great heads and intakes, negating 2 big ticket items that we need. Hmmm, i wonder why it costs more to run w/ 'em?

Ford auto trannies, i'll pass. Electonic 4L60E, i'll pass. Mustang T5s are super. I once heard of a guy who ran low 10s w/ one. Everyone else blows up way before then - Wow, when you take an honest look at trannies, thirdgen isn't so bad. Unless you just want to be a hater.

 

Kingtal0n, the new SS cars can go a lot deeper than mid 13s. I know everyone hates to hear magazine times, but Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords got a new, stock SS to 12.90! (I got that info from corral.net, where they also said that the guy that they had driving the SS was a pretty good driver. Also, a fair number of people on LS1.com are running low 13s/very high 12s. Also, those times are only for the 01-02 cars since they got the LS6 intake.) The other thing is that some people just like the fourth gens. You can build a faster thirdgen, but if you wanted a fourth gen, you wasted your money.

Also, don't get me wrong, because I'm not a big fan of the fox mustangs (I CAN NOT get past the looks and high driving position), but check into autocross info at www.corral.net, www.stangnet.com, www.cornercarvers.com (maybe its www.corner-carvers.com). When they want serious handling, they put in a torque arm and panhard, readily available from the aftermarket. So while we have that "advantage" stock, how many of us replace our stock parts with aftermarket parts anyway (hence our "advantage"). I think that an aftermarket-supensioned thirdgen would be superior, though, in terms of handling (we have that advantage over just about everything ), but still. Also, Ed is completely correct as usual in saying that the stock 5.0 blocks don't hold up, as a lot of people at the aforementioned mustang sites aren't using stock blocks. However, while I doubt that the 8.8" would be anyone's rear end of choice in a 9 second car, the 8.8" seems to take 11 second runs, which is better than most of us are doing. (That really goes back to what I was saying in another post about us needing to mod up our cars because we're falling behind in terms of performance.) So you could do a 5.0 mustang for a few grand, although you'd be behind a thirdgen in handling I would think. And the other thing is that you can make a fox stang very light: while this is an extreme, a couple different people at corral.net have 2400 lb (race weight) notchbacks!! You can do a lot more with any given motor and handling setup when you're 1000 lbs lighter than other people. (The Cobra in sig weighs 2200 ) I guess the question there is can you make a thirdgen with something like GT Auto's "notchback" comparably lightweight?

CrazyRob 75 and Jer82Z28 are saying that thirdgens are great until you want to go fairly fast, at which point "they lose their cost effective appeal." What car can run 9's inexpensively?

What I'm saying is that thirdgens are great and fairly inexpensive to mod, but they are not the only cars out there that fit that description, as some of us seem to think. They have their strong points and their weak points just like every other car.

And as for the original topic, thirdgen=slow gen??, so what if our cars aren't the quickest right off the showroom floor? You want factory performance, buy a Z06--11's bone stock in some cases With thirdgens you get some of the best-looking cars ever made and an extensive aftermarket that enables you to make your car into just about anything you want. And hey, if you decide to keep your car stock (I don't understand that either ), then you have a really fun car to drive that still handles better than almost every car out there (assuming that you have a well-maintained WS6 or at least the perfermance suspension, an IROC, a Z-28, or 1LE ).

 

ok, obviously people are writing without reading. 4th gens are different gen. YES the cars handle and drive great. Are they slow? that's relative, but too me yes. As for drag racing, no duh it cost money to modify a car run a fast time, but you guys obviously missed the part about the $1000 8.8 set-up as opposed to my cost $3000 dollar Moser set-up. All i'm trying to get at is there are no cheaper middle of the road alternatives for our cars. Either cross your fingers and run with the 7.5 or your only alternative is a pricey 12 bolt or nine inch. By comparison, a 12 bolt spool c-clip eliminator and choose of gears would run about $1000 here. Gone are the days of pulling a junk 12 or 9" from the junkyard and welding the brackets on it and going for it. Thank you torque arm. For those that like handling, yeah its great, but for straighline racers, damn the costs really start to add up. What's the prob with the FOrd 8.8? factory they are roughly the same as a 8.75 12 bolt. I'd rather do the $1000 stuff, then $3000 for the whole rear end. I don't even know if Currie still sells there torque arm bracket for the 9" inch. At least yu cold still do some work yourself. I like the 700R4's, but again, to rather put less money into a th400 and still be able to buy a couple beers after.

My point is, pretty much everything on our car from the factory is useless in higher horse applications. Therefore, it's gonna cost a helluva lot more to modify it for RELIABLE performance. I'd love to see someone yanking the front wheels WITH a 7.5, then still drive the car home. Even the second gen 8.5 10 bolt can be modified to handle tens happily for less than shove a 9" in your cars. Basically that point where you have to start dropping BIG money into your car happens alot sooner on ours then some other makes or models. If you like a 300 horse handling car, fine, then keep your factory junk and enjoy. I want my car to be all it can be (i prefer the 1320), and unfortunantly I'm gonna go broke trying to do it.

One other point of interest. Wanna swap a BBC in your car? The good old yank the sbc and stuff in a bbc swap that's been done for decades? guess what, your screwed. Hooker at the time i did mine made the only headers for the swap. $1200 CDN. No thanks. I'm not spending that much for poor fitting headers. I hear Lemon has some really nice headers for the swap now, but unfortunantly i here they are MORE then the Hookers.

 

The forth gen's have the privilage of of using the hind sight and technology from the previous 3 generations and they are quick and sharp. Look at what the third gens do have. More space under the hood for one. A quick and sharp 4th gen will cost roughly 20 Grand and up for the higher perf. models. Take a few thousand bucks and buy a third gen in decent shape, scrap the stock engine, build an engine or buy a crate one and "whala" your talking a sleeper! Most 4th gens are mainly stock or the lower performance models have a few bolt on's, put them up against a thirdgen w/ a decent crate or built up engine and they have no power advantave at all. I would rather be the under dog with a sleeper personally. Plus its a great feeling to spank an expensive 4th gen or vette with a thirdgen thats 1/2 of the price and inferior in the minds of the vette and 4th gen owners minds!

Juat my two cents!

Bruce (70GTO)

 

A lot of the first low 10 and 9 second LS1 cars were still using the stock rear. They realized (wisely) that the 7.5 eats less power. And since they were in search of being the true first LS1s at those ETs, every bit counted. I don't think any of 'em were drivers, but i can assure you that there are plenty of wheels up 4th gens on stock rears. I tried to find soem pics real quick, but had no luck, but i do distinctly remember this fact. Also, i am dead positive that auto tranny LS1 cars can run way into the 11s all day on the stock rear.

As far as not being able to just get a 12 bolt and weld some brackets on it....ummmm, it's been a while, but i know i've seen the torque arm bracket available as a seperate piece to weld onto the rear of your choice. And thats not even counting cutting it off a stock rear and fabbing a way to use it on a 12 bolt whatever.

In short though, if you can name one car that can run 9s w/ replacing the entire driveline, i'm all ears. And sure a big block chevelle w a th400 and 12 bolt has all the goodies, you still have to sink coin to get it all beefed up. And if you're complaining that why can't everything be as cheap to beef up as old school muscle I mean, isn't that obvious?

 

again your refer to the 4th gens NOT third gens. 4th gens are pretty damn impressive out of the box ,but the post started as "thirdgen=slow gen?". The reason that i refer to the old muscle car days, when they came out in 82, basically they were no different that an older model drivetrain. Carbed v8, auto or stick, and a rearend, no fancy voodoo. I wsh old school technologies could still apply, at least when swapping in better parts. AS for that weld on 12 bolt bracket, if i have read correctly, it was discontinued cause welding it to cast iron, it just wasn't strong and guys were snapping it off under a bit of power. As far as I know currie has a bolt on bracket, don't know if it's still available. Yeah if i wanted to do away with the torque arm, i could go with a ladder bar set-up or get the SSM liftbar kit. That kit alone is over $1000 CDN. AGAIN, my point is that especially with CANADIAN prices, these cars are MORE expensive to upgrade. Just also curious, you won't take a beefed 8.8 on a ten 10 ride, but yet there are plenty of 4th gens running 9 and 10 secs? I'll take the beefer rearend thank. I guess the only saving grace is that 7.5's are dirt cheap here ($100 from the boneyard) because noone wants them, so if youy blow one, just slap a new one in. Then again constantly changing rearends can get really old really quick.

I'll definantly agree with 70GTO, guess the reason i choose to mod her is because for some reason, here at least, thehy are considered "sleepers and slow". Strange to consider a Camaro a sleeper, but most are 305's or junkyard 350's here. People's jaws drop when they see a 454 in there. Even in a street race i don't bs, i tell them i have a bbc and they don't believe me til i pop the hood! i honestly don't see why it's such a big deal, it's just a simple motor swap. I guess i'd rather just fabricate stuff than buy something complete in a crate ( IE rearend) i enjoy BUILDING stuff, not just swapping parts, plus you learn a hell of alot more.

 

Not trying to pour gas on fire here folks.. but I just have one question. the beginning of this thread is basically saying that third gens are pathetically slow etc..
everyone seems to agree with this theory excecpt for me.
These cars weren't that expensive to buyy brand new in comparison to cars that yiou mention are fast such as the Corvette, or say a Buick Grand National.
Therre is a large market out there of performance parts available to hop up our cars, and I would think GM figured that we would do that. Why do you think they gave us such a large engine bay folks? it wasnt just cause they wanted to have a long hood like a corvette.. Sleek design was in their heads.. but they maded the engine compartment large so we as consumers.. can play with our toys after we get them.. how many of the ricers buuy an import and just drive it stock.. as soon as they get the things.. they go out and buy the coffee can exhaust pipe, and all the mods.. and NOS...etc.. you think the rice cars are fast stock??? HELLLLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOO.. but HOnda is riding with the fact that consumers will buy all the hop parts available on the market which when done, and driven on the streets, sell their cars for them.

 

I only refered to 4thgens cuz it's the same rear. Max effort thirdgens don't waste their time biding time on the stock rear. Nor do most of the fast 4thgens now. My point was, it can be made to work. And like you said, it has the advantage of at least being cheap so you can pop 'em and replace 'em 2-3 times a season and still be ahead almost.

Good call on the hypocrisy on the rears though, but this is how i thojught like that. When i think of most fast mustangs, i think of manual trannies. When i think of fast f-bodies i think of auto trannies. Autos are easier on rears than manuals obviously thus the strength advantage of the 8.8 is sorta negated. But still, you're right, if you built a mustang to not shock load the hell out of the rear, it is indeed a stronger combo.

I guess i just don't understand your beef. I sure wish i lived in the good old days when a kid could run 9s working at the carwash for the summer. The way i see it, it costs so much to run 9s anyway, an extra 2k on a rear is just another drop in the bucket. Basically yes, these cars did come from the factory hamstrung in every way for max performace. Sure an old big block muscle car already has the rear and tranny to do it, but they still need to be completely reworked for 9s. And 4th gens at leats come w/ nice heads and intakes on 'em so that eliminates at least a little of the cost of making power vs. athirdgen. But that IS the sleeper appeal, you can't have it both ways...

 

Bluebird, great point. You're not pouring gas on fire, you're bringing this thread back into reality and focus. I'm sorry but adebate on the cost effectiveness of running 9s in a thirdgen is retarded., of course it can be done cheaper. And it can be done w/ stock trannies and rears if you're not building for ultimate reliability (which in itself is a silly concept for a 9 second car in a way)

Stock for stock, the top model thridgens were always great. Period.

- Sure the early CFI thirdgens were slow. But i'd take it over the POS the mustang had in 82/83, it wouldn't even look like ar ace vs. a carbed TR, and the cease fire vette was just as slow really.

- L69. Yeah, i'd take that over the 84-86 mustang plant as well. 15 flat / high 14s stock off the showroom floor was a nice number for it's day. And L69s can be made to run much better w/o too much more work.

- LB9 important to note that ONLY the good cams cars count in this section. Stock for stock, a G92 5 speed 305 can easily hang w/ the oh so vaunted mustang 5.0. And the SD 305s aren't too shabby either. Do you really think a 92 mustang GT convertible w/ all options and an AOD could even hold a candle to my vert? Sorry, but there aren't that many mustangs that ran 14.3 basically bone stock w/ stock gearing.

- L98 should always be a step ahead of the LB9 for it's year.


The reason thirdgens have a rep as being so slow is simple. Basically all the V8 thirdgens were low output cars. And even among enthusiasts of other gens / cars, they don't know what the difference is between an 88TBI car and a 92 1Le 5 speed. It's just, man i smoked a thirdgen, it was even 5 speed and he still sucked, they're all slow.
Couple that w/ the *** forsaken penaut cam MAF 305 TPIs. Ugh. WTF was GM smoking to saddle it's high output engine w/ a flat buympstick. That one move is perhaps the biggest black eye the thirdgens have, cuz most non-retards understanhd the concept of the TBI cars sucking, they just don't know how to tell what has what. I'm sorry everybody, but the MAf peanut cam cars are pathetic, and at the track, say you're in staging and a few folks see you wit hthe hood up and they see TPI. Then they see you run a 16.2. They now think it's normal for a TPI 305 to run 16s. That is ****ed. So much so that even when a mid-low 14 second 305 TPI is around it's treated like a freak. I don't think of my car as a freak, plenty of SD 305s run much better than mine does.

Couple that w/ the ******* stereotype and the element of truth it holds. These days, even cars that should run pretty good someteims don't. This is due to lazy owers that don't even bother to keep their car in good basic maintenance and tune. I guarantee if you look at a a grand national or a mustang that isn't well maintained, it'll run just as pathetically as a 15 second L98 w/ the same ails.

 

Basically yes, these cars did come from the factory hamstrung in every way for max performace.

that is basically all I'm saying. I wish i paided US prices....ALOT cheaper. I'm also 26 and a mechanic at a local speed shop, so even though i get my parts at cost, it still hurts the pocketbook. I don't intend to run 9's i'd be happy with a 10 or even a low 11 run, RELIABLY. Agian, with the cost of good aftermarket parts, i want to swap things in ONCE and not worry about them. I mean there just isn't a happy medium with these cars. EIther put a good gearset and say an a locker in the 7.5 ( about $800 for both) then pretty much the only next step is an all out 12 bolt or 9". Maybe it's also the fact that I'm trying to paint my 72 Cutlass that's been sitting in my garage for the last half a year. i also wouldn't mind swapping a V8 in my rustfree 84 S10 daily driver. I promised myself i wouldn't mess with the truck, but it's in such good shape, you know how things go . That's why i prefer to build things. It saves me more money that can be put into my other toys. *** help me, everytime i read the local Buy and Sell, i want to bring at least 2 or 3 more toys home. Guess this is just a money sucking, addictive hobby.........but I'm a sucker for a pretty face...errr car

EDIT just curious as to how "9 Seconds" became the magic number?

 

another thing i just thought of. 1986, MUstang gets a beefier 8.8 rear, also instead of the passenger 7.5 grand nationals get the 8.5. Why didn't GM think about our poor little f-body? I believe the horse output of the 86 stang was 215 then 225 in the later years. when the 350 came out in 87 wasn't it 245 horse and 300+ of torque?? it would have been a nice upgrade. I haven't met a person that like's the Gov lock posi. They had a good thing going when they started, but they only concerned themselves with the motor and kinda forgot about the rest of the car . At least they redeemed themselves with the 4th gen (not the price tag albeit). If i could afford one, i'd love to bring one home.

Did a third gen every come from the factory with an Auburn style posi? or even a Detroit locker or something like that? Not sure of this.

 

I don;t know how this got to 9s. It seemd to me at some point this turned into a discussion of ultra high end cars. Beats me, i don't feel like reading all the old posts, lol.

As for a rear, if you're only going for 11s, if you're footbraking an auto tranny the stock rear will live. It's not ideal, but if you don't hav ethe cash to go all the way, you just have to make do. Also, the 9 bolt rears that came in these cars are definitely a step up over the 10 bolt. That was the upgrade these cars got and it is indeed a real one. The mistake GM made was too not make the parts readily available, thus high priced. In australia they have everything you need for a 9 bolt though.
As for what to do to beef it up, you won't spend near 800 to do it. The cheap trick set-up is to get a take-off torsen posi from SLP for $100 and some 28 spline axles out of a late thirdgen.
Funny you mention the eaton gov-lok. Actually, it isn't correct to even call it a thirdgen rear choice. They only used the eaton's for a period in the 84-85 span when they ran low on the normal auburn units. Yes, thats right, the stock posi in a 10 bolt thirdgen is an auburn. Not the egg-sheel eaton. I have an eaton in my car temporariily as i swapped to a 3.23 rear. I have a torsen, and my old 28 spline axles are going in after i get my tranny sorted out though. No doubt the eaton is junk, looks like the carrier is made out of sheetmetal compared to my torsen.

If you check out the tranny and drivetrain board there's at least one or 2 big block guys running 9 bolts over there and doing OK. A 10 bolt would definitely be a crapshoot for you, but at least they're cheap, lol.

 

well i did my motor swap last year, and for some strange reason the rear hasn't blown. 3 guys i know with mild 350's all crapped there's out. Guess I'm lucky, and i'm gonna keep my fingers crossed. UNfortunantly i AM running the gov lock in there, so when it goes i hope i at least get a few good pics . Sorry, i completely forgot about the 9 bolt rear. I know Miles is runing one, i though Stephen was running a 10 before he switched to a 9". Hmmm...i might have to go look again. Actually did look into a torsen posi set-up when i put my posi and gears in. $600 here, but the 28 spline set-up COULD be a possiblity. My buddy ( one of the guys who mangled his rear end, shreded the pinion gear) bought his detroit locker for $650 alone. I wish our Canadian money was worth something. I'm still perplexed why my rear hasn't popped. I beat the crap out of the car regularily, launch it off the convertor most of the time. One thing i did do when i set my rear end up was to run the backlash at .005. NIce and tight. I'vee run the gears and posi for 2 years, the last year being with the 454. Hope it lasts another season.

 

seems the problem with our "slow cars" is that people seem to go ALL OUT or not at all.. and the not at all are the ones who make us all seem slow..
now.. i put my car in the slow catagory because i'm an "all out or not at all" kinda guy.. just don't have the $$$ to go there yet
i'm pretty sure a non penut camed 305 TPI SD with some headers, gears and a chip could do decent.. and for all the ealier years.. MAF is.. not too good.. convert to sd or go carb with a good base and a good exhaust.. some gears.. but then converting is "a big job".. kinda thing.. what can you do, eh?
another point.... modding u'r engine and keeping the 2.73's is.. dumb.. unless you dive on the hiway alot.. but face it.. on the 1/4 or at the light.. you got nothing with 2.7x..
neways..
Rob.. you going to be at the world of wheels next weekend?..
i'd like to meet you and talk to you about u'r 454 swap.
(btw.. i look like just a punk kid.. so.. consider your answer carefully )

 

lol....i look like a long haired unshaven biker! choose YOUR answer carefully :P. I religiously go every year. I might even have to end up working it if there aren't enough people for the Rivercity Performance display.

Shoot me an e-mail and I'll let you know what day and time I'm going

Rpelc@shaw.ca

 

All i have to say about the mustang/camaro comparison is this. The newer camaros spank all mustangs. (POINT: Camaro). My family currently owns a 1988 Camaro (mine - 340hp, 355cid, lotsa suspension work) and a 1984 Mustang GT (400hp, runs 13.1). The mustang has WELL over 10,000 into it. Including the motor, tranny, purchase price, and other misc. stuff and it only runs 13.1 in the 1/4 mile. I'm about $5,500 into my camaro and once I kick some nitrous into it (i would have done it all w/motor but my comp. controlled TBI is gay) i'll run 12s and i'll only have around $7000 into it when i'm done. $3000 is a big difference for a build up, and the Camaro is even HEAVIER than the 'stang. I like fords and all, but remember guys - FORDS ARE EXPENSIVE! a 302 ford can't sniff a 302 Chevy any day, or a 350 for that matter unless you drop 1 1/2 the money. That's what i think

TP

 

I'm done with the Stang VS. Camaro debate, but if you have a TRUE 400 horse motor in that stang with sticky tires and all your runnig is 13's, then you have obviously done something wrong. We got stock stangs here with gears, sticky tires and MAYBE exhaust that are running that number. sorry, 10 grand invested into a 13 second car is hilarious.