that is true. That is a good way to look at it!

 

Exactly. I'm a senior mechanical engineering student, and I've learned in my material selection in mechanical design class about "Miners Rule", which basically states you only get one life...it has to do with materials failing in fatigue.

Basically, say your axle has a life equal to the number "1000". (This is an extremely simplified example by the way). Everytime you launch your car, or put any kind of force on it, it will take a little chunk away from that 1000. A 10 second car launching may take away "20" every launch....an 13 second car may take away "5". You could drive around on the street, just accelerating normally and take away ".0001". Either way, drive that thing enough under ANY force and it will fail EVENTUALLY. Just pounding on it harder will kill it quicker. You can have a tranny rated at 450ft-lbs and it IS possible to kill it with a car putting out 200ft-lbs, eventually.

 

yeah that it a very true statement, but for most FWD imports, lets rate their strengths at 100 and making a 12 second pass launching hard is about a 20. Eventually everything will fail, but the longer it can hold out, the more durable it is, and American V8 parts can hold out a damned long time even under adverse conditions, but that's what they were engineered to do. Hondas were engineered to get around town and not have any realistic high performance applications but some people seem to think that and they will be breaking half-shafts and motor mounts frequently just to run low 13s in thier honda.

 

you also have to look at buying stuff at non **** prices. you start going out bying something on the **** idea you are going to spend lots of money
try this
upgrade toa t04
add a little more fuel
boost controller
intake/exhuast
and you can prolly hit low 13's high 12's at least I would assume
and that is maybe with 1000-1500invested

posted by jokerman
already covered that one with 25thrs

350vs302
lets say the 302 came stock with a turbo
now since the 350 has more displacement lets show how good more displacement is better by adding a turbo
but then again some say the turbo option is better and lets show how much better the turbo motor runs by making it a 351
who's right?
the guy who said displacement is better and showed that by adding a turbo
or the guy who said turbos are better by adding displacement?

Black363IROCZdepending on the turbo it make a huge difference
stock turbo on the rx7 is only 6 psi
my friend is running 11psi through his turbo right now and puts 380 to the ground
another guy is running 16 psi on a different turbo and only puts 320
both have the same motor setup
only real difference is the turbo/exhuast for the most partthats kinda bad comment
you can easily do it a lot cheaper then that


posted by x-wolf
lets think of this though
car that makes about 213.2hp@3500rpms but uses 2.73 gears makes about 873.6lbs/ft of torque at the wheels
car that makes 228hp@6000rpms but uses 4.3 gears will make about 860lb/ft of torque at the rear
the first car has more torque rated at the motor but when you get to the rear wheels they are about equal due to gearing.
also what about racing a car that has a curb weight of maybe 1600lbs but only has 150 lbs/ft and about 180hp vs a car that weighs 3400lbs and has about 220hp and 320lbs/ft
who would prolly win that one? but what won the race? torque? I wouldn't say so. but weight.
you can't just pin down what is good down to one thing
torque =good
less weight = good
hp = good (IMHO better then flywheel tq being it gives you a better idea as to how fast the motor can run taking into account gearing)
another thing to look at if torque is kind
why did nascar build 900hp cars rather then 900lb/ft cars?
why did they build the power at 9000rpms rather then 4500rpms?
hp can equal more acceleration when you take gearing into account
also read above for displacement vs boost
which is better there?

[QUOTE]hmmm sounds like ricers [/QUOTE
you might want to watch how you throw that word around.
import doesn't equal ****.

try the 300Zx,RX7,WRX,ferarri,porsche,lambo,silvia,lancer evo.
also looking back now saying a lot of imports are slow when quiet a few of them already surpass what the 305tpi did and are going into 350tpi range... whats that say about those motors?


I donno
my low high 15 second car (least I hope high 15 now) beat an LS1 vette before
he stalled the car. simple as that
other things can happen like broken parts, missing a shift and so on so it is believable


supra is a bad car to point that out
also take into account torque on the supra. you didn't give me the rpm range that hp was made so I will just use static 900hp at different rpm ranges
if he is spinning at 7000rpms he makes 675.2lbs/ft of torque
even at 9000rpms he makes 525.2lbs/ft
or lets say it was done at 5000rpms that would be 945.36lbs/ft of torque
research things just a little more before you post them
supra is very good at putting down some nice sweet hp/torque numbers...... but..... alas they can't run down the track worth a darn (stupid d<x>amn swear filter prevents me from saying the bad words)


zepher that is a very very nice TA... me likes alot


posted by mdricken
I think the 89 TTA came with a turbo as well as the 81 TTA
correct me if I'm wrong guys
also you say that it is unfair for a guy to be running a turbo in his inline 4 cyl
but then again is it fair to run an 8 cyl vs a 4 cyl?
what do you think a turbo does anyway? pumps more air into the motor as would more displacement.
then if you really want to look at a fair playing field we would all be given the same car with the same mods the same weight and only thing would matter is driver... doesn't sound all that fun to me
I would rather un equal playing fields just to be able to have different cars
supercharger/turbo/nitrous vs N/A is fair if you don't think it is don't race him and don't complan about losing if you do race him
then again I also live by the phrase "run what you brung"


posted by Traveler
and what does that prove?
driven quiet a few 4 cyl as well as some 8 cyl (hell my first car was an 8)
I push the pedal down about the same on all of them...

and talking about lack of low end.... you have no idea till you drive an N/A rx7 power below 2500-3000rpms.... LMAO now thats funny but still just as much gas pedal for cruising as my camaro.... and a HELL of a lot better gas milage even though they both used 4.10

you make it sound like all imports are going to break something when they run 12's
it's not so
and being in stock form most imports will easily do what most domestics can if not better

 

yes long post

but at least I broke my habit of making one post for each reply


also inwo isn't the title of this forum theoretical and street racing
a lot of what is discussed on this page is theory/appliaction in street racing
would that fit?

 

now to answer your question

smaller displacement motors tend to make there torque up high
since hp = (tq*rpm)/5252 you can see that two motors given the same torque but made at different rpms can make two vastly different hp numbers
another thing is look at power. it is made by air, fuel, compression, and spark. lets take a 100ci motor vs a 200ci motor
at 8000rpms at 100% filling of the cyl the 100ci motor is taking in 231.481 cubic feet of air a min

now the 200ci motor is taking in the same 231.481 cubic feet air a min....

and just to show my math to make sure that I got it right
md = motor displacement
cfm = ((md/2)/1728)*rpm

now we are cutting out things like pumping loss/rotating wieght and all that but get the idea they are sucking in the same amount of air which would allow them to make close to the same amount of power. but being that motor one 1 is sucking would make that power up high means more hp even though the torque might be the same

and with the previous thing adding boost adds more air to the fire. if you read my last post (a.k.a. rant) you will see that I said boost brings in more air just like displacement brings in more air.
so even though the motor might only be 2.0L he might be pushing enough air in there to make it lets say 4L
there are other things here but man I don't feel up to another rant page.... *UGH*

oh well take care guys I'll be back as you all know to ***** this thread up some more

 

I'm not against imports...I like...

 

...Subarus...

 

I know this isn't thirdgen related, but I do think it's an important discussion to have. Now that I have a DSM as well as my thirdgen, I frequent the DSM boards as well. One thing I really like about their message boards is that they don't have a strict "DSM ONLY" policy like our strict "THIRDGEN ONLY" policy. I honestly used to be all anti-imports, but that was because I really didn't know a damn thing about them...all I knew about was retarded rlced out honduhs, and I'm getting the feeling that a lot of the thirdgen guys in here are the same way. It's more ignorace than anything else (and I'm not trying to say that in a demeaning way). The only reason I actually considered a DSM or ANY import was because my friend was going to buy one....he doesn't know crap about cars and asked me to look into them for him. When I saw "little jap 4-bangers" running 12's with less than a grand of mods I crapped myself.

I think it's easy for you to say, "Imports SUCK" when you don't really know anything about them. I think it's a common problem, which gives thirdgeners a bad rap. We come off as being "domestic or nothing, get your jap crap outta here", making thirdgen owners look like a bunch of white trash morons. Again, I'm not trying to be demeaning, I'm just telling you the impression that most non mustang/camaro owners have of F-body guys (esp. thirdgen).

In all seriousness, if you were to go to any other message board, you wouldn't see someone post, "How can this turbo 4-banger POSSIBLY have 200hp and beat my V-8?" People are just more aware of other platforms.

While this has definitely gone off topic of "Theoretical and Street Racing", I don't think it should be locked just because it's not completely thirdgen orientated. I think that just perhaps moving it to a more appropriate forum might be more productive.

 

I agree...I think this post should be kept open, because it is more informative then 99% of the ones on this board!

 

Totally agree. I want to be a bigger part of this site, but even if I got a 3rd gen f-body, it wouldn't be the only thing I drive, race, and think about.

Here's one...or two in a way...hehehe...votes for a more liberal street racing board.

By the way, Inwo, I completely understand about conserving space. That's one thing I've BEEN worrying about in starting my website. Which I think I can do in a few months...

 

Agreed. I think it's hard to have a board about street racing when you can't talk much about anything on the street other than thirdgens.

Ex.-
"I have a 92 Z-28 w/ this and that done. Can I beat this (other platform) with this and that done?"

Then when someone starts talking in detail about the other platform the thread get's locked, or they're reminded that speaking of anything other than thirdgens is taboo. It can become rather frustrating. I agree with every other forum being strictly thirdgen, but I think having this one be more open could only make this site a better resource for it's members.

 

Here's some preachin':

A vehicle is not completely its own. It is an attempt to compete with the competition. We NEED to know about the competition. In detail. We know our engines are good. Or rather, you know your engines are good. Why? There's always a basis for comparison. Even if you don't think there is, there is. So...in short, if something we have is superior (or not) we need to know why. No one here wants to go at this blindly. "GM is the best just because..." Why?

And you also need to know what you are up against. If you are going to be so strict with the board, why not just ban every non- 3rd gen owner. Isn't it kind of like discrimination.

This is a great site with some great people. Why do that?

 

is that right? 10000? My buddy bought a Greddy Turbo w/ a type 24 FMIC used for 1200 bucks. He's running 10PSI and hit a 13.66 @ 106.XX on street tires. I could go all motor in my SI and pull off a low 14 NA with weight reduction, cams, cam gears, and some beefy internals to hold the more aggressive cams for around 2000 bucks...Now that is expensive.

 

but question is how much do you really know about imports to like/disklike them?


not trying to flame so far this post has been kept on good terms I think we should keep it this way


second another thing I wanted to add to my comment about 200hp and 2.0L and boost to get it but too lazy to go edit

most boosted cars use a mild cam least duration/overlap wise.
you get too much duration/overlap and a lot of your air/fuel mixture will go out the exhuast
so with the mild cam it helps low end a little bit even though compression is usually a little lower


then getting into honda they use vtec which allows them to have a small penut like cam a lg4 but then as the revs get up switching to a high performance cam after a rpm point is reached.
with doing this they can put a cam in the car that normaly would only give a lump lumpy lumpy 1200rpm idle and 6 inches of vac... but since they have two cam profiles they can get away with it

 

Dude...RX7speed...it's me. It always was me. All of Traveler's post are mine. So how much do I know. ALOT.
I like old Subarus, because my family has owned 1 or 2. My uncle owned a Stanza. My cousin owns a 95 Eclipse, an 87 Sentra, and a 00 Altima. Another uncle owns a Nissan truck. Another cousin owns a newer Sentra...I am fond of most of these. I loved the Subaru, the Stanza was cool, haven't tried out the Eclipse yet, the 87 Sentra is cool, the Altima is cool, the Nissan truck is cool, haven't tried the new Sentra...

Anymore questions?

By the way, read the post directly AFTER the post you quoted...you'll see that IT and the post you quoted are connected...

 

suddenly I am very confused!

 

you sure?

 

Well, good, now I'm confused...

And what are you asking me, "Are you sure?" about?

Traveler--- "I'm not against imports...I like..."

Abel Kane--- "...Subarus."

Get it?

 

as he said are you sure???

 

Yeah, I'm sure...hey wait...we better stop this or all 4 of us will be in trouble.


Actually I think I'll fix up this profile for my cousin. He'll be online soon. He has a Camaro with a 330 Olds, an S15 with a 350 sbc....and MANY more cars and trucks. I think the number is over 20.

 

Huh? I said what now?

 

im kinda confused by your statement.So heres the way i comprehend it.the guy who took his 302 turbo motor and made it into a 351 turbo motor would be better off.there is no replacement for displacement.more power available below the "boost threshold"

3.8 gn motor vs 502

both these motors making 500 hp.the 3.8 gn motor needs to make lots of boost to achieve 500 hp.the 3.8 needs to run on race gas ,the 502 doesnt.its alot easier making power with displacement.

 

When I said "you" I just meant people in general....I wasn't talking about YOU. Sorry.

 

Some people, believe it or not, care about weight as well...and don't just drive in a straight line. If that 3.8 is making the same power as a 502, in the same car, it'll weigh less. Not THAT big a deal on a drag strip, but all that weight in the nose of a road race car is just detrimental.

You'll always be better off in a road race car, or any racing where you care about handling, with a smaller displacement engine putting out the same power as a larger one would. Often times a car with a smaller, lighter engine can destroy a similar car with a heavier, larger displacement engine putting out more power. Displacement is not always the answer...

 

well that may be true in a roadrace car.i was talking about making power in general.when power is your objective ,making power thru displacement is alot easier.

 

Good fregin lord, its not that hard to understand.

A 2.0 liter Turbo is as fast as a 5.7 liter chevy

I would say that the turbo definatly MADE UP for, or was a REPLACEMENT for displacement.

Jeezus, its not rocket science.

 

lol wow this post turned out to be ALOT more then I thought it would be. I have been busy with school lately, bought some car books, and started hanging out with poeople that were into both imports and domestics (when I talk about imports, and through this whole entire posta ll together, I am talking japanese imports)

so needless to say I have learned alot. I STILL love V-8s and love how much power they are capable of without changing them too much and doing it inexpensively. Not to mention the sound. DSM's have gained A TON more respect in my book as far as what CAN be done with them but there is still that issue of reliability and driveability. Honda's, nuff said. I think its amazing what some tuners can do with a 2.2 SI prelude engine in a CRX, but that requires a pretty penny and a crap load of know how. That little new WRX is pretty powerful little car, just dislike the fact of how long turbos take to spool, anyway, I have learned alot about imports and domestics and can now understand alot more about both!

hope this post doesn't go for too insanely long!!

cheers all, keep up the work on any car you like, cause YOU like it! All I know is my RS is getting a new engine soon! and that'll be fun to put in!

laters

 

read the whole thing

I always hear the arguement no replacement for displcament
think of if you add bost to a v8

most of the time this is in reference to an import though

which is better
the guy with the 350 who thinks displacement is better and proves it by adding a turbo
or the guy who thinks boost is better and proves it by putting more displacement



again this is to those who say no replecement for displacement cause what would happen if I add a turbo to my v8 vs your I4

so what I am doing is taking that arguement and making it two v8 vs one another


more power below boost threshhold?
that depends on a lot of things
and that still doesn't make for no replacement to displacement



also I'm a guy who likes to road race


you think I want that huge a<x>ss 502 in the nose of my car?
sorry but I like the idea of what is it 300lbs or so for full motor rad intake turbo and exhuast manifold plus a full thing of oil in for my motor weight

light weight is key with my thing


so in my world
again there is replacement for displacement
less weight

 

try telling that to the DSM guys running 12-13 second 1/4 miles for pennies


or GN/TTA guys who with free mods are almost in the 11's

boost is so much easier to make more power then with big displacement




also being easy..... doesn't mean it is better

 

well sounds like you would make for a very good car person

you know not one of those fords suck because they are fordd

and honda sucks just because it is an import

those people suck
and we have a few of them here


but it sounds as though you can respect a car for what it can do rather then who makes it or what it is


good luck with the learning
and if you ever need to know something just ask here... lots of people to help you out

 

well, you can do alot with all sorts of differen cars. For drag, i still say nothing can beat the large displacement. For road, the lighter cars do do well, though alot of the smaller displacement cars mainly hondas are not tuned for good road suspension. Those subies are though!! Wrx rally cars, insane road cars!!

I am trying to keep an open mind about things. the thing that REALLY bugs me about ANY car lover is when they say that a car can do what it can't. for instance that friend that started this whole post with his eclipse, says that there is a honda RSX type R or somehing integra over in japan that can do 200 mph on an inline 4 WITHOUT turbo/nitrous and its street legal. THATS the stuff that bugs me. INSANE claims on the smaller displacement engines!

Mistu, Subie, and ALOT of the european model cars now get my props!! Those RX7 cars are quick too, that rotary idea is pretty neat!!

take it easy and thanks rx7speed.

 

Though, how much does a DSM engine cost? I mean if you were to replace it or something

I mean you can order a $1500 350 from Summit that make 240 hp

 

well a NEW DSM engine wouold run you about 2500 - 3K around here.....used about 900 or so, depending on mileage and application.

They aisn't cheap!!!!
thats for darn sure. I HAD a prelude. I got rid of the sucker for this very reason. Though my third gen has its issues, adn that car did not, I KNOW for a fact that when that thing had a problem it would cost FAR MORE to fix then fixing my camaro My clutch went out in that little 4 banger and BOY did that cost me. Part alone was 550 bucks, and trust me I looked around! Stupid front wheel drive

 

thought we were talking going fast for the least amount of money
not replacing parts when they break though

and generally you don't have to replace the whole motor just pieces.
and the motor itself is fairly stout..least enough to get it in the 12's

 

I wish I'd gotten in on this sooner. Now I just don't feel like reading all the posts.

 

Yeah it was proboly a sstretch to mention origl engine cost. So what has this post taught us?

DSMs are better than thirdgens?

I mean they are faster for cheaper, get better gas mileage . I mean I guess we got looks, but thats a matter of opinion....Oh yeah...that V8 rumble...ah

 

Id say sound, raw power, and the fact that we get torque right from idle. They have to wait for their turbo

cheers!

 

WTF? You aren't going to beat an AWD turbo car off the line on street tires

 

AWD no. Not all DSMs are all wheel drive. They still have to wait for all their torque though till the turbo kicks in

 

Well sorry this has turned into a great discussion but its strayed away from its original intention.