How is it possible for my friends mistubishi eclipse turbo car to have 240 HP?? I mean I know different addons can add horsepower, but what I am saying is how can a little 4 cylinder 2.0 engine, put out around 200 HP.....granted the turbo really helps. Even still, my other friend has a normal integra, and her car has 130 HP stock.....4 cyl 1.8 Ltr. Whats the deal? Shouldn't V8's have MUCH more power???

I would think so!!!

 

how is it possible you ask?
because they are highly tuned (if it does indeed have 240 hp) and it has a big (for it's size) turbo..
you gotta understand how turbo works (and i'm in no way an expert in this) but from what i've been told and read about is that an engine is an air pump.. more air = more power.
now, N/A (naturally aspired) engines produce a certain amount of HP.. now, take a turbo and force air into there and you don't have the same cubic inches going through the engine, you have more.. (this is where i'm iffy on exact numbers, please feel free to correct me or flame me) a 350 takes in about 175 cubic inches of air per full rotation of the crank. add a turbo which forces in another extra 175 cubic inches of air and you have more or less the likeliness of a 700 cid engine.. (<- probably wrong on that.. i dont' think it doubles.. but anyways.. numbers arn't important)
so, stick a turbo on a 2.0L engine, giving it twice or three times as much air as it would take naturally and there you go.. more power..
but then you get into issues of fuel management and spark curve and so forth (not to mention the extra heat that this gives off, that's why intercoolers are good)

make sense?

 

so what would his car have without the turbo? Like nothing? or what? Cause again, my other friend normal car (no turbo, intake or anything) has 130 Hp.....the integra....thats only 40 HP LOWER then my heavier V8....I jsut don't understand how that is!! Thats crap! :-)

 

there are a million ways to build a motor. And as such, there are a million reasons some motors have more/less power than another. Factor in airflow, efficiency, compression, displacement, and it starts to get tricky.

I'm tired, or I'd type more. In the meantime, go to www.howstuffworks.com/engine.html (i think that's the right url...)

 

http://www.machv.com/goinfasenand.html
look there it tell how to make 300 horsepower
and 375hp for them
there are people that have dsm with 400+

 

1991-1994
Eclipse (8 valve, 1.8L, SOHC, 92hp)
Eclipse RS (8 valve, 1.8L, SOHC, 92hp)
Eclipse GS (8 valve, 1.8L, SOHC, 92hp)
Eclipse GS (16 valve, 2.0L, DOHC, 135hp)
Eclipse GS-T (16 valve, 2.0L Turbo, DOHC, 195hp)
Eclipse GSX (16 valve, 2.0L Turbo, DOHC, 195hp, AWD)


in 1995-97 they went to 140hp with out the turbo and 210 with it but it had a smaller turbo

but the none turbo did not have the same 2.0L motor as the turbo ones

 

Granted that they use a t25 turbo on the 2.0 DOHC engine it generated pretty good numbers. The t25 I beleive to be the smallest turbo offered on cars stock(correct me if I am wrong). The DSM were cutting edge when they were released, only suprassed by the :hail: GN and TT/A. Those numbers with a 5 spd, or even an auto and AWD, laid down impressive times back in the early 90s.

The other view is the fact that the stock 305 tpi was horribly made. Compare it to the Mustang 302. The 305 had a shorter bore I think, and the fact that they had such damn restrictive air flows. But after the LT1 came out, the DSM were not as impressive off the showroom floor.

Now when it comes down to the short run and the long run with engines, the DSM will get you into the 13's and 12's cheaper than a V-8. But after that it becomes cheaper to go with a V-8. Notice how the fastest Talon(that I have read about), not even street legal, ran high 7's. When I saw him run at the Quaker he only ran a low 8, and then something in the engine blew.

Now look at that, and look at the numerous numbers of V-8s that run 6's and 7's completely street legal. When turbo cars get into the lower times they become more high maintenace then other cars, because the parts become much more expensive and require more work.

If I made any mistakes please feel to correct me, do not even try to flame me.

 

yeah some of those 4 banger turbo cars are quick!!

but i would think a 8 banger turbo would kill one badly!!

 

Did someone mention V8's with turbos?

http://68.57.97.15/tloutlaw.mpeg
http://68.57.97.15/CHIP.mpg
http://68.57.97.15/brandons_run.wmv

To get into why they can make so much power with a 2.0L, think about it like this...

Combustion requires 3 things...air (specifically: oxygen), fuel, and spark. The more air/fuel in the mixture, the more power you can make. Now then, let's consider the fact that an engine is nothing more than a fancy air pump. Pump more air into the engine (using a turbo in this case), add more fuel, ignite it and you've got more horsepower. Why can they fit more air into the engine? Simple, the turbo compresses the air, therefore allowing you to cram more air into the same space. More air contains more oxygen. See what I'm getting at?

Yes, I know this is an oversimplified explanation, but I think it'll suffice for the situation at hand.

 

Those vids rock

 

Did somebody say nitrous

-Doug

 

oh I understand the concept, but still, it blows my mind!!! Mainyl it blows my mind that alot of v8's like 305's (LO3 in particular) can only have 170 HP....i know adding and modding it can really make it beefier, but still!!!!



laters

 

Try wrapping your boggled mind around this... my slightly modified 2001 Yamaha YZF-R1 dyno'd at 138rwhp earlier this summer. That's a slip-on, filter, and jet kit, nothing more performance wise. And that is REAR wheel horespower, not crank. on a 998cc engine (ie .99liter engine) No boost, no nitrous, just naturally aspirated 12,500RPM limited inline 4 cylinder sportsbike power. With a curb weight just a tad over 400 pounds to boot (380lbs dry)

There are a lot of variables to understand when it comes to internal combustion engines and how they make their horsepower. (Formula 1 cars are making insane amounts of horsepower on very small displacement engines as well)

I'll give you a hint though. The key to these insane horsepower small displacement naturally aspirated engines... horsepower = torque * RPM / 5252. They focus on maximum airflow at very high RPMs to get maximum horsepower.

If you think about it, at about 10,500RPM, horsepower will be twice what the torque is at that RPM. Below 5252RPM torque will always be greater then horsepower. Above 5252RPM, horsepower will always be greater then torque.

 

you also gotta understand that the reason they made the early 305's with lil horsepower is because next to the vette nothing was really as fast as a camaro/firebird so to GM it was UNREASONABLE to make a car FASTER THAN IT HAD TO BE AT THAT TIME...but they can go just as fast with the right type of work done...ANYTHING CAN BE FAST...HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU GOT?

 

My eclipse run's low 15's stock.....my IROC run's about Mid 15's after Intake/Exhaust/Gears and lots of other little things. Of course, most of my friends know nothing about cars so I still TELL them the Camaro is faster, and after riding in it they believe me.

Oh how misleading torque is...

 

What do 1998 Turbo Eclipses run in the quarter? Anyone know?

 

There is a replacement for displacement and it's called Turbo :rockon:
Granted once you turbo a v8 then all bets are off but still :-P

What the 98s run in the 1/4 depends on GSX or GS-T, probably high 14s low 15s depending on who you ask and how good the driver is... The T25 is a real POS.

 

It was stated above that making a GST faster is cheaper comparativly to the V-8. I'm sorry but I'l have to disagree with that. A friend of mines father has built 350 blocks that only cost foughly 3-4K and pushed anywhere from 400HP to 700HP. He was a racer for YEARS. I trust his judgment, and what he tells me. PLUS david Vizard says it can be done and that guy knows his stuff, so I would have to disagree with you.

the stage 2 or 3 setup on the GST costs roughly 5K. TONS of stuff can be done to a V8 with 5K bucks!

 

Exactly, that's why the statement you just made doesn't hold true, and why there is no replacement for displacement.

 

Look at this 2000 Civic Si 4 cylinder.


Now look at the motor,


This car Dyno's over 500HP to the wheels. It's all about the boost.

 

Look at this though. I have driven 4cyl cars before (had a 78 320i for a year or so) and the one thing these small engines do to compensate for the lack of displacement and cylinders is rev. I mean my bmw would nicely reve to 6500rpm. Now that doesn't sound like alot but this was a fairly primitive vacum advance driven fuel injected overhead cam 4cyl from the late 70's with some nasty emissions crap slowing it down to still pump out around 120hp and 110ftlbs of torque. The only problem is that all of that is higher up. Look at the most extreme example out there the S2000. I have driven one. They are fun but they are so highly tuned and such that they rev to 9000rpm+ have 250 or so hp and 150ftlbs of torque all very high up in the rpms. The L03 while it has only 170hp, also has 255ftlbs of torque simply due to size. It has some of, if not the, worst heads and cam combo ever put onto a chevy small block from the factory and yet it still gets those numbers. And yes there is still no replacement for displacement. Take a turbo and put it on a 4cyl and then put a comprable setup on a V8 and look at the differance.

 

turbo hondas have zero reliability. they are always breaking something if it's axles, motor mounts, pistons, cranks, or even blocks. the only thing they aren't breaking is that 12 second barrier, most of them aren't breaking the 14 second barrier. A DSM is a little different, just increasing boost will yield 240 HP on 2nd gen. they boost like 5 psi stock.

 

That Blue one ran 11.80 when he had 360HP at the wheels.

 

I'll agree about the hondas breaking as I have seen numerous hondas break axles at the racetrack. Its quite funny really seeing a civic with a prelude 2.2 in it tuned and turbod......axle goes SNAP! Now are the DSM's built internally well? Every single mechanic I have talked to about DSM's says that those things can barely hold a head gasket for 50K miles. So if thats the case, I would think putting too much boost on those things could easily break internals or axles.

Just a thought

 

I prefer the bullet proof motors of the Supra.
800+hp on the stock internals with no problems.

 

ok but isn't the supra a inline 6? once again no replacement for displacement. Still though you could do that much HP on internals with a V8. It is possible. Though that would require a pretty penny

 

Very true. It's just that on a budget its cheaper to play with a turbo car when it came from the factory that way (ie DSM)

 

Actually it's about 10psi...and yeah it doesn't take much money to get them into the mid to low 13's.

 

They can handle about 450hp on stock internals with the stock drivetrain stuff (IF the drivetrain isn't abused....7000rpm AWD launches can take its toll pretty quick).

 

well this friend of mine (not really a friend anymore) abuses the hell out of his car. He takes off peeling out, and shifts way fast and peels out into second gear. he just drives it way to hard. I warned him it would probably nock out his tranny but he just said whatever. granted his parents pay for everytyhing....so who knows...

 

really? my buddy upped his boost to 12 PSI and ran low 14s from stock, I assumed it was 5-7 because 2 PSI can't make that much of a difference

 

hmm interesting that it is said it doesn't take much money. If you checked out dsm tuners.com (dsm site) they have a listing of the fastest 1/4 mile ET times on there, and most on there, even with lots of workon internals, are barely hitting mid low 13's. There are faster ones but looking at the amount of work they had done to them, it would costa pretty penny......would cost less on V-8

 

Well here's my view of some Japanese cars...

Mitsubishi..........good cars, but most are mid-range, few high performance cars.
Subaru..............very good cars, getting better at the high performance thing.
Toyota..............Supra...yeah, they have some powerful cars.
Nissan..............Skyline...same here.
Honda...............huh?

Also, you need to look at when your car was made. It's old..."modify" it. For performance, look for the strongest, longest lasting cars first. It's something you are going to be putting money into, so make sure it earns its keep.

 

you can get a DSM into the 13s for peanuts, but faster than that it's gonna really get expensive. For honda, expect 10000 to get your Si into the low 14s lol.

 

What? With lots of work on the internals people should be hitting 12's, EASY. Here's what I have done to my car...prices all include SHIPPING:
1G BOV - $40
UICP - $75
Homemade MBC - $12
K&N FIPK - $120
Boost Gauge - $40
14B Turbo - $170
Port Turbo - Free
Ported Exhaust Manifold - Free
Install kit for Turbo - $170
Stainless steel Downpipe and cat eliminator - $200
Ported O2 Housing - Free
Fuel Pump Rewire - $12

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm still waiting for the turbo to come in, but with this setup I should have NO problem with a 13.5. Not bad for under $900. I don't have enough money right now for a catback, but with that and a bigger fuel pump ($100) I'm looking at low 13's. The key thing I'm installing is that 14B turbo. 2G's come stock with a small crappy T-25, they're only good for like a 13.3, and that's with a LOT of internal work, high octane gas, and race weight. If you shop around, you can get a 14B (turbo that came off the 1g's) like I did in mint condition for $170 shipped, and then an install kit for another $170 and have a HUGE upgrade for $340. That bigger turbo is the exact reason I'll be able to hit mid to low 13's with very little work done. If I were to stick with the T-25 I'd be wasting a LOT of money trying to use a turbo WAY out of it's efficiency range.

I hate to admit it, but if you're trying to just break into the 12's, it would be a lot cheaper with a 1g DSM than it would with your average (TTA excluded) thirdgen.

 

I'd say the 12s for peanuts. More than that, yeah, it starts to get fairly expensive.

 

well if the stock 1G unit is so much better, how come the 2G cars are faster and have more (albeit little more) hp stock?

 

2g's have 20 more hp stock, but weigh more, so they're actually pretty equal. The 1G is better to mod for DRAG because of the lower weight, better turbo, and better BOV stock. To get a 1G into the 12's takes nothing, with the 2G you have to get rid of that crappy T-25.

When you talk about handling, 2g's weigh more but have a better suspension design to they're better when modded for handling.

 

Torque is still King.....YES IM AWSOME (voice from strongbad......probably never heard of him :-)

cheers!

 

Amen to x_wolf. The little 4 banger manufacturers always forget to tell you a very important spec - WHERE does the HP occur???

Horsepower = Torque X RPM. From this equation, all you have to do is start with a small amount of torque and simply make sure your engine can rev to the moon, and v'ola - ****loads of horsepower.

Of course turbos and superchargers and anything that will put more air into an engine will make more combustion force and hence more torque.

So IHO its not fair to compare apples to oranges and say, hey I can make more HP than you even though I have a turbo installed and I have to break 10k before it hits

- !!!

Torque will always rule !!!!

 

amen brotha man! I personally don't like turbos as they have to hit high RPM to spool up, and the engine needs high revs as you said for the HP. David Vizard, G O D on engines, says Tourque is king, and I wholhartedly agree with that!
take it easy!

 

Let me know which stock internaled V8 can push 800+hp.
I'll be pushing 500hp with N2O on my LT1 but that is probably not too healthy for my stock internaled motor.

 

I never said stock internals in my statement. But they are sure as hell cheaper then alot of the aftermarket internals for the ricers. sorry if tht wasn't clear.

 

also do some research. you could push MUCH MUCH MUCH more power out of that LT1 then you are thinkin without the NOS. If you do good research and match your cam, intake, and heads well, your good to go. Oh and a stroker helps.

Do that and you could be pushing well over 500HP without any sort of forced induction. Just a good carb, fuel injection setup.

 

Oh, ok.
There are a few people in my area with awesome LT1 cars, but they have built stroker motors and only seem to push around 420 at the wheels N/A.

The main purpose for my car is to hit 200mph, that is the goal I have planned eventually for my 86 Trans Am. I just can't afford all the nice goodies at the moment.

 

nice lookin engine you got there. heres the deal. Most people just think "ok I'll throw a hot cam in there, a new exhaust, and hmm....better TPI, Ramjet intake, and call it good to go.....no....it doesn't work that way. Don't get me wrong, a good exhaust and intake system is crucial.

Things must be matched up according to what you have in the engine. if you have a SOLID bottom end (good pistons, 2 bolt ARP or 4 bolt ARP rods, and quality crank, oh and dont' forget oiling and cooling) all the power comes from the valvetrain. Choosing the right cam, heads, valves, intake can make a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in how your car performs, but the parts must match to each other as best as possible for the best performance.

Torque is king. Get as much torque outta that thing as possible, and that is what V-8's are best at. Torque. Ricers make up for it with high revving, where as V-8s just naturally have a ton of torque.

if you got the money for a book i would suggest David Vizards how to build chevy smallblocks ona budget. This guy knows his stuff and knows how to do it cheaply!! Good luck with your car. Looks like a nice bird!

200 MPH is ALOT of speed in any car if you ask me. Why is it that you are trying to attain this? You are going to be breaking parts if all you want to do is hit that barrier.

 

I'll check out that book, thanks.
I am just a fan of high speed runs, like the Maxton Mile Standing Mile top speed event, Bonnevile Land Speed Trials, Silver State Classic. And I want to be a member of the 200mph Club.

I've got a long way to go though to get my car done the way I want it, probably 2-3 years.
Twin Turbo V8, Targa Top hatch roof, 8 point cage etc.....

 

well that book I reffered you to, has an engine build up list with 10 builups listed, and what is in them and how much it costs....

for reference for you (keep in mind these are not newer bowtie blocks.)


this is a 4 bolt main truck block I won't list all that was done, but with machining work done by himsself and by actual companies, this engine buldup with NOS pushes about 750 HP single state N2O injected, and about 880 HP dual stage N20 injected.


the parts he bought were about 2500 bucks, the labor about 600 so total about 3K. Thats for the whole buildup. That is for the stage 1 NOS though. The stage two was about 3500 probably.

just gives you an idea of what is possible out of the venerable small block V-8.

 

one more thing....TORQUE TORQUE TORQUE. It can't be stated enough. as someone said above (not sure who it was) ricers make HP by revving really high.....thinks of S2000 revving to 9000 rpm. The V-8s make HP by use of torque. Not RPM.

power=torque*rpm/5252.

the more torque, the more power, just as can be said with the more RPM the more power, BUT things generally fail at high RPM's for one, and 2: those cars generally have little torque.

hope that clears even more up. do some research if you don't believe me and you will find I am right!! cheers!

 

uuuuhhhh WOW- that is one perrrty engine comparment you got dude!!
I hope mine looks like that some day.


I'd like to make one more observation - NOT ONE stock F-body has been born with a super or turbo charger. Just think if it had and they became as relatively common as those Mitsu's and other blown foreigh crap!!! We'd have daily drivers with 500HP easily - A 250HP Mitsubishi would be childs play. And without the turbo they really are childs play - I know - my Corsica has ~130HP and it really sucks in the get-up-and-haul-*** department.

Anyway, I'm just a proponent of an equal playing field, and if some guy has a turbo and the other guy doesn't that aint a fair playing field.

Hail to the torque gods!!!!:hail: