7plagues

iTrader: (1)

so its late 1am and i was cruising out with my buddies last night, 4 cars total. we are all heading to wendy's and all make a right hand turn onto a road and get to about 40-45 in a 35, not exactly speeding and it was late no other cars on the road. heres our layout

friend

........|.me|
........|.....|.friend1
friend2

well we get about 3/4 a mile down the road. we all merge into the left hand lane, i slowed down and let friend1 cross in front of me and get over all this about 50yards from wendys when an undercover cop pulls friend1 and i over(letting the others go?!). he walks up to my car and asks for liscense and blah, to which i respond "why was i pulled over?", response "for street racing," "officer i wasnt street racing." response "i call it the way i see it", me "well did you get me on radar?", "I dont have too, i estimated you doin 50." now the catch is, he was not even at the light where i made a right hand and i saw him coming up fast when i was that 3/4mile down the road and friend2 was behind me for a majority of that 3/4 of a mile, so i dont see how the cop saw me, so overall im dumbfounded as to how this happened and need to get a lawyer. also all my friends in the cars are willing to be witnesses. what sucks is this is gonna be expensive. any advice? comments questions concerns ....8points....bleh.....cant have it.
ticket: racing/exhibition of speed.
est 50+ in a 35...

Synapsis

Coming from someone else who cruised in Tucson, don't drive a red car. Seriously, when my car was red I got tickets from exhibition of accelleration to to reckless driving. A stack. I painted the car black and haven't received a ticket yet.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

im starting to feel that way...hmm paint jobs...money.... i hate cops. that and my friend was in a white 240sx.....bleh

gta31

hmmm man i dont know how it is around there but here in pa without a radar I would just say to the judge that I wasnt racing I might have been going over 35 that was a mistake but Ill pay the fine just get rid of the points

19redbird89

I would go with the above statement. Not guilty to streeet racing but admit to going over the speed limit. honesty is the best policy and maybe the judge will see it that way.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

good luck man.....just tell the judge the truth

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

so i was talking to friend1 and he stated he went 50mph and caught up to me, making it impossible for me to get to 50mph. basically this is just complete bull. funny thing is if i was racing, the ticket would of been for way over 50mph.

zz4monte

Something similar happend to my brother in his vette. Some kid in a rice burner pulled up next to him and revved the engine up and floored it and took off, my brother didn't even do anything expect look at the guy and laugh but as soon as the civic took off a cop came out off a side street and pulled him over for street racing. He fought it and beat it if I remember right. I think the cop failed to appear in court, so it was dismissed.This was 3-4 years ago. The cop just assumed he was racing because he had a vette.If I had a dollar for everytime some @sshole in a civic revved thier motor at me, I would have 300 bucks in my wallet right now. I have cops follow me all the time in the monte when I take it out. I have been pulled over twice in the last 2 years and both times I asked why I was pulled over and they said because it was a "race car" or because they said they needed no reason to pull me over, which in the state of Texas is pretty much true. My little 13second monte is a race car, sure. They think they are made of glass and I can't see them following me. I really feel its almost to the point of harassment but it comes along with having a sports car.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

agreed, im not too worried, im going to get a good lawyer and fight it. there is no way im stick with a racing/exhibition of speed ticket that states me goin 50mph... its kind of embarassing if anything lol.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

**** dude. What would the cop of done if I'd stuck around you guys any longer? Worst part is, when I pulled a u-turn on Speedway, me and this fourth gen raced. And there you are, at probably the exact same time, getting pulled over. Man, that sucks. Hope you win.

5678TA

that sucks man.. you could fight back pretty easily i think.. just tell the judge what you know about the situation..

this is what i would say..

"i asked the officer why he pulled me over and he said i was racing and speeding.. he also told me that i call it the way i see it.. i dont have to get you on radar, i estimated you at 50.. he did not clock me, he did not pace with me, there was no way that he could know the speed i was going.. and for racing, the officer stated that i was in an exhibition of speed.. if i were racing, i would be going ALOT faster than barely over the speedlimit of 35.. this, so-called "race" would have lasted for all of 2 seconds.. "


just go to court and own that stupid cop.. my friend slammed a sheriff in corvallis when he fought his M.I.P. case.. i was there to witness the mayhem.. he made the sheriff look like a 6year old playing cops and robbers..

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

yea my friend and i are looking at options for lawyers and so on, i dont wanna take this lightly and screw it up, and i have the exact same sentiment as you do 5678ta it was complete bull. i mean my friend and i didnt even know we were racing lol?!!?!?!?

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

Request the supporting deposition. That requires the office write up the complete information regarding the situation. Right off the bat, if they don't provide you with that, that makes their case almost impossible. I beat a street racing ticket w/ that a few years ago, and I might have gone down for it if that little trick hadn't working out for me. Defintely take it to court, you'll have to apprear anyways for a street racing ticket. (at least in NY you do, its a misdemeanor) They'll give you a trial date down the road, and then go from there.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i got a "wreckless driving" ticket one night a couple years back. ~$350 6 points. coming down the interstate, a unmarked LS1 camaro passed me going 10 over. figured he was messing with me since i had shoepolish numbers the window from the track. so i laid into it and passed him back doing around 95mph with a 4" mufflex screaming at him. lol
went to court, the cop that pulled me over called me into the little room and asked me how i plead. of course i said "guilty". he asked me if i could pay then or if i needed an extension. i was like wtf, am i not going to see a judge?!? "wreckless driving tickets cant be dropped any, and your fine is the minimum".
so anyways, theres my story.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

is the supporting deposition the police report? because i just got that and it hilarious and filled with many errors. it says friend one switched from middle to right(never did) and we lined up and raced to 50+mph, he states nothing of the other cars, or the light that was rapidly approaching. im pretty sure we are fine, i know for a fact i didnt race, and that i did not pass my other friends and know for a fact they werent racing aswell lol. im seeing a free uofa law consulation and getting a lawyer from there.

89Nighthawk

Been in a similar situation, get a good lawyer, you can beat it, I did.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

The free attorney will probably get it defered for you if they do that in Texas. Here if you fight the ticket they usually offer you to pay the fine but have no points. Good luck on it, this guy's definetly willing to lie about you and filled out the report so he'll probably be in court. Just make sure you don't slip up and your story is the same throughout, he'll probably mess his up a few times. You never know how well the judge knows the cop, or even your defense attorney for that matter.

Blownz28man

iTrader: (2)

ok...i've messed with the system several times before... Idea 1. Blow a fuse (on purpose) that goes to your gauge cluster. Re install it. Take it to a repair shop and tell them you popped a fuse. After they "fix it" get the RO (repair order) and submit a motion to dismiss due to the fast your vehical had a mechanical problem. you can do this via fax. Just find out there fax number. They dont know what there looking at on the RO. Sometimes they'll dis mis. Or Idea number 2. Keep re-scheduling about two to three times last min. The officer will start getting pissed and won't show up to one of them..then your off free. I've done both of these.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

hmm your popped fuse idea is intriguing.... im seeing the free attoney consulation tomorrow, but they do not represent in court, so i will be searchin for a real one shortly.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

i lucked out and got out of a street racing 83 in a 45 one night. cop was cool though said since the girl i was racing was a friend of mine and that we werent "going that fast" and that we were honest and helpfull he droped it to speeding 60 in a 45 and i got it dropped by going to driving school you should be fine unless the court system around you sucks

1320_Guy

iTrader: (3)

Cops around here suck, if you drive a fast looking car you are doing something wrong. My friend and i was driving in a 35 and the guy infront of us was going like 25 so we passed him then got pulled over for 40 in a 35 and reckles opperation for passing. We asked the officer if we passed in a no passing zone and he said no.

Let us know what happends.

rx7speed

sorry bud but a monte carlo isn't much of a sports car and 13's isn't a fast race car.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

And you royally suck at sarcasm. I hope you're agreeing with the guy.

twobirds

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

haha, keep it on topic buds

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

update: i saw the school lawyer who is free and doesnt represent, she said my friend and i have a strong case in our favor and as long as we get everything straight with the witnesses and have a lawyer represent that we would have the outcome in our favor.

Hunter330123

last year my brother and his friend we driving, simular to u and your friends and there was a car going slow so they both passed him, cop pulles them both over and says they we street racing, my brother gets smart with the cop and gives him a ticket for speeding and a fine for not cooperating with a police officer, luckily my uncle is real close friends with the cop and he called him and he didnt end up turning in the ticket or the fine, but i dont think cops should be able just 'estimate' you were speeding good luck with ur trial if u go thru with it

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

yea im definately goin through with it, have to because this wont disappear by itself.

80smetalfan

Do some research and get a good lawyer who does mainly traffic and motor vehicle tickets. It isn't cheap, but much cheaper than what your insurance will cost you with 8 points missing.

A couple years back I got 4 tickets in 2 weeks. 2 for test driving my Cutlass on a county road after I had just finished the swap (No registration and a second one related to the car not being street legal, I forget what but I know the car was insured), and 2 in my old thirdgen. One was like a 74 in a 60, the other was from bumping into an old lady who wanted insurance money at a stoplight (striking a lawfully stopped vehicle).

Long story short, paid about $600 for the whole thing between the cost of my lawyer, court costs, and one of the tickets. I basically got out of 3 of them, the only one they got me on was a non-moving violation so my insurance stayed the same, and I had a year of "driving probation" where if I would have got another ticket in that year I would have got convicted on it and the ticket from the wreck.

Anyhow, all of that is kind of embarassing, but I hope it cheers you up.

slohand

OK, first I would suggest your visit the web sight for the National Motorist Association. They have a lot of great info as well as a list of attorney's in your area who specialize in traffic law. I would also suggest your join becasue it is a great organization and they helps us with our driving the way the NRA helps with our Second Amendment. They also have info on how to fight the ticket yourself if you so choose

There are several posts complaining about having your speed "estimated". The way police are suppose to work this is....they observe traffic, then if they think someone is speeding they estimate the cars speed and then use radar, vascar, or a magic 8 ball to confirm the cars speed. (ok, i'm joking about the magic 8 ball but it's right about the same as the others) My point is that him "estimating" your speed is valid and you could be screwed if you don't make your case.

It is illegal for police to run their radars on every car. Yes I know they do it but it is illegal electronic surveillance without a warrant. And no they don't have a warrant but no one works to stop this abuse.

Now for something really important....DO NOT ADMIT TO SPEEDING! You have a 4th amendment right NOT to incrminate yourself, use it. All you need to do is deny, in court, the "racing" charge against you. You do not need to admit to anything. Why do you think police walk up to the car and say "do you know why I pulled you over?" They are looking for an admission of guilt!!!!! Don't fall for it. The answer to "do you know why I pulled you over is"..."ahhh....because your a jerk?". OK, will just saying "why no officer I don't" is a better answer and will probably make your life much easier.

Always remember you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Yes I know it doesn't always work that way and that is why you need an attorney. Now make DAMN sure your friends don't go in there and admit to speeding!!! Remeber this a court and you all could be nailed for speeding if you admit to it regardless of how the "racing" charge comes out. If asked about speeding just answer in true Saprano fashion "I refuse to answer that on the grounds my response might tend to incrimnate me." It's fun and all your friends should try it!! Also don't admit to any drugs you have or underage drinking.

Be sure to file that discover motion. Like he said if you don't get the info the case is closed. You have a right to everything the DA has on this case. Did I mention it takes them time and money to do this? I love payback.

It may be worth your time to take several pictures of the area showing where the police officer was and where you were. Many times it is obvious the officer is sadly mistake (your the sad one here) or just plain lying. Either way it could help your case, if not toss the pics.

And if you really want to have some fun tell the judge you want a jury trial. That will usually make the DA think twice about pushing the case. $$$$$ again.


As for red cars, why do you think they call it "arrest me red?"

Sorry to hear your getting screwed and you have my best wishes.

1320_Guy

iTrader: (3)

Great website, learned alot just looking over it.

jake.sala

over here in juarez mexico our law enforcement its so shitty, if you get pull over for speeding you can easily get rid of them by giving them like 5 or 7 bucks, lol, if they pull you over and find out that you had been drinking, if you gave them like 15 or 20 bucks they let you go.... once they pull me over and seriously i was wasted and i gave them 8 bucks (100 pesos) and they let me go... well i was like 3 or 4 blocks from home...obviously you have to have a nice attitude or they will want more money lol
That my friends are some shitty cops.

Gibson

we need them here, that way i could cruise in my jeep with no fenders and huge tires without worry.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

no, we dont need them here.

zraffz

A cop can only give you a ticket for going over the speed limit without pacing you or the use of radar (which means estimating your speed) if they have qualified via a class/test. It will not be as serious of an offense as a normal speeding ticket is but it's still a moving violation and results in points.
I'd admit to going 45 in a 35 (you don't want to be caught doing 15+ over), and I would most certainly deny street racing... apparently the cop knew you weren't street racing; normally they impound on the spot for that.

CaliChevyLover

he should admit to going 88 mph so he could go back in time to the court date and use your advice

stealthroc89

For future reference dont say " Well officer if I was racing you wouldnt have caught me!!!". That one landed me in the back of a cruiser. He didnt take me in, he gave me a ticket for street racing, but when I got back to my car I found my interior was tore up, he twisted my tach around, knocked my rear view mirror off and cracked my console. I immediatly pulled out my phone and started taping everything. Got to court submited my video and the ticket was dropped, still had the court cost though and in the end thats all they want, what little money they can suck out of your pockets. Cops are BAAAAAD here in Texas!!!!!

RS Chris

Sounds like he was just trying to fill his quota more than anything.

91TPI5.7

Ok, judging from YOUR side of the story, sounds like a bad night. I fully agree with you that if the charges are untrue, then by all means plead your case. If you have proof beyond a reason of a doubt that what you are accused of is incorrect then you have nothing to worry about.

Now to clear up an inaccuracy,

First, that is a load of crap about radar. It is not electronic surveillance. Radar is a tool used to confirm speed. You do not need a warrant to use radar. Never have I heard of nonsense like that. If you believe that then you think that the mere act of "patrol" is an incursion to privacy as well, since it involves watching the general public. The term "electronic surveillance" involves listening devices, and video recording equipment, to which you do require a warrant. If it happens on a public road, THERE IS NO PRIVACY.

Second, if a cop asks you a question, they probably already know the answer. The want to guage whether or not you will lie to them, and most already have their mind made up to give you a ticket or not before they even speak to you.

Third, there is no payback. Its not personal, its childish thinking and undermining of the authority that gets you more attention than you deserve. Whether its guilty or innocent, the cop, DA, Judge, sheriff, court clerk....ect dont lose money, sleep, face disciplinary, or for that matter really care. If you are innocent, good for you. Cops are hmans to and we all make mistakes.

To someone else who said "cops dont need a reason to pull you over" is a straight up violation of you civil rights regarless of state. You need, must have, without a doubt, probable cause. That can be any violation of state law. i.e. cracked tail light, item hanging from rearview mirror, obstructed plate...ect. You dont need a reason to follow someone. Its called doing your job.

There seem to be a lot of myths regarding traffic laws, radar, and court procedures. I know this because as a cop I got to experience first hand what decisions go into enforcing the law.
Oh, and there arent any quotas. Traffic tickets do not generate enough revenue to be a reliable source of income. Thats what taxes are for.

tpi305

Lol except in California.

It's neat to see an officer who enjoys 3rd gens. Most that I have seen look at them like they're the choice ride for the aspiring drug lord. We painted for an officer and my father asked why I'm followed so much and why I basically get the stink eye when I'm behind the wheel. He said that Iroc's look like they're straight outta the trailer park lmao.

A friend of the family's (middle-aged Catholic woman, not a teenager with a Camaro) got pulled over for no front license plate. When she arrived home, the front license plate was there. Here, they don't really seem to really follow the probable cause idea very closely.

This is not intended in any way to be an attack at all, but all I'm saying is that there are reasons why people get the idea of "quotas" and "no probable cause needed."

MotorMouth

A town in Oklahoma and Arkansas a few years ago lost the power to write speeding ticket because of the money they made. Oklahoma pasted a law in 2003 because of so many towns using tickets to fund their towns.
Here is a link on 1 town doing it. http://rwarn17588.wordpress.com/2006...-a-speed-trap/

As a truck driver I can attest to ticket happy money making towns. Like Waldo FL., Cobb County Ga. ( Why else would they need their own Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Division ), The entire state of California. And just last week the State Supreme Court of Ohio said a cop can issue a ticket without proof of speeding if they believe you are speeding. Charlotte and Wilmington City officials saying that red light cameras were needed for safety. Then when the state passed a law that would deduct the money they made from the camera, from the money the state issued them for projects within a week both cities took them down. If that's not proof that most towns see it as money then nothing will convince you.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...es-741192.html

I have not had a speeding ticket in over 10 years.

kenlamb3

well first off i wish you luck on you case, but for me I think alot has todo with how you talk to the cop that pulls you over.
In my town I have not had a speeding ticket since I was like 22, and im 28 now iv been driving my red camaro for 7 years now and as time went on it seemed like more and more police wouldnt bug me,because i wasnt doing anything out of the ordinery.
Now I will say that I feel like my plates have got me out of some speeding tickets.
I have been pulled over in the past 2 years about 3 time and because i am a vet of a war the officer was cool and let me go...after we exchanged war storys.
I even had one cop tell me to avoid a certain street on a certain date because of a road block that was going down.
I geuss iv just been lucky,but it wasnt always like that for me when I first started to drive I used to get speeding tickets all the time,all I can say is do you research talk to poeple and dont act nervios in court.
I have beaten acouple tickets from state police for doing 106 on a 65 when I was younger and i didnt hire an attorney,I got them both dropped because the police simpley didnt have enough proof for the judge to find me guilty.
Again good luck.

zachkuby87

no speeding tickets in my camaro recently got really lucky last september though i did at least a 3 block burnout ran it ***** to the walls to at least 90 in a 30 (straight road industrial area 12 am no ppl around) got back down to about thirty lookin at the cloud in my rearview and all i saw was flashing lights he was a ways back i was thinkin about taking a few quick corners but decided to just pull over and wait for him. well needless to say i got lucky as hell cause it was one of my good friends that pulled me over no tickets just a trip to the bar with an old friend.... but other than that cops suck imo dont get me wrong theyres a select few that do there job which is protect and serve but for the most part at least where i come from its a different story more like pull u over for some random bs rip u out of the car smack ya around a little bit rip the car to pieces arrest u talk **** for 20 minutes let u go and have the nerve to say some stupid **** like sorry for the inconvenience sir have a great afternoon with a smile on there face.. like they just enjoyed ruining your day because of the airfreshener hanging from your mirror or the crack in ur 25 year old tail light or the dark window tint that ends up testing legal but the same cop will pull u over twice a week knowing it legal even when u have the windows down... maybe ive just had too many bad experiences with police... i dont know but i can honestly say 9 out of 10 are dicks that are a discrace to the 10% that give a **** and do there job right

zraffz

9/10 not caring is 10% that care

zachkuby87

when i first read this i was thinkin no sh*t sherlock but then i looked at my post... typo thanks for noticing and telling me before i look to stupid

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If a cop has already made up his mind (Note the other post from the cop saying "If a cop asks you a question, it's just to see if you'll lie to them, they've already made up their mind to give you a ticket") then what's the point of talking to them nicely? Im not encouraging you to be a dick, but buttering them up clearly is a waste of time. I like to be kissed before I get ****ed.

My only speeding ticket since I was young, dumb, and stupid when I was 16 was earlier this year. I got it for "Speed Unsafe for Conditions" because I was accelerating onto an interstate on-ramp at a speed the cop didnt particularly like. I never broke traction, I just decided to wind out first and second gear to see if a misfire I was having issues with at the track would show up again, then I put it straight into 5th around 60 mph and coasted up to 70 just as the on-ramp ended and 70 is the speed limit on that particular stretch of interstate.

This cop pulls me over a mile down the road and tells me I "must have been doing 100 mph through traffic!" I told her I wasn't speeding and that I'm always careful about that, and she asked me when the last speeding ticket I had was, and I told her it was back when I was 16, 9 years ago.

I mean what can you possibly say to a cop in a situation like that that could change the outcome? I was just merging with traffic around 70 mph and the cop because she thinks I was doing 100+ mph, she gives me a ticket for "speed unsafe for conditions". I bet the only reason she gave me that ticket was because she was never able to prove I was actually speeding beyond her personal vendetta.

Cops are just doing their job, I get that, but I have no patience for this holier than thou bullshit. They are public servants. I pay their paychecks. Im sorry, it sucks dealing with the lowest common denominator pieces of **** all day, but you signed up for the job, don't take it out on me and give me a bullshit ticket I can't fight because it depends entirely on the personal feelings of a subjective, biased, authority figure. (Speed Unsafe for Conditions is hard to fight for that very reason)

I've met some super cool, laid back cops that were very chill and respectful with me, and I've dealt with far more of those than the bad apples, but I dont get the ****ing attitude some of them bring. You dont have to be a dick when I tell you I wasn't speeding. You want me to lie to you and incriminate myself? This isnt 1984 and you're not big brother, get off your high horse.

F A T B O Y

What do you consider "probable cause"? Two years ago (i was 16, with a learners permit) i got pulled over for no seatbelt. (i've got 5pt harnesses, only the lapbelt was strapped (totally legal)) I got a little cocky/mouthy with the cop cause my girlfriend was with me and i'm an idiot. Next thing i realized i was ripped from the car, thrown to the pavement with a knee in my back and a pair of cuffs on my wrists, the officer calling for backup. The cop then proceeded to ransack my vehicle (damn near ruining a $700 vinyl job - no doubt purposefully) when the backup officer arrives he says he had mistaken the baby ruth wrapper under my seat for a pistol. Probable cause, eh? He wanted his revenge at me for being a punk.

I've been pulled over for "suspicion" at least three times. Once leaving a neighborhood that had recently been vandalized, and twice for driving too slow (suspicious activity). If an officer WANTS to pull you over, an officer WILL pull you over. Bottom line. He can claim you were swerving, you didn't signal, etc. Things you can't PROVE you weren't doing. You know?

KNBlazer

yeah I hope you're Mexican, then use a I was targeted defense.. damn ticket will be dismissed entirely or reduced to a warning... ...

zachkuby87

just three hours ago i cruised about 6 blocks from my house to mcdonalds grabbed my big mac was on my way home and cherrys in the rearview i pull over ask what i was being pulled over for and the cop told me for not using my blinker when i pulled out of the apartment parking lot... i then explained to him i went to mcdonalds and have never been in those apartments in my life and invited him to knock on every door and ask the tenants if they knew me well apparently im a cocky ******* and my hot n fresh big mac meal wasnt enough proof that i had just left mcdonalds and since i lied to him he decided to cuff me tear my car apart "accidentally" spill my red gatorade from the mcdonalds cup needless to say he didnt find **** cause i refuse to have anything illegal in my car and had to let me go... i asked him if he was gonna ticket me and he said no ill let u go with a warning just this time and u werent wearing ur seatbelt make sure u buckle up.which is bullshit i always do.... are cops *******s cause they were picked on there whole life and now this is there payback or do they just have nothing better to do than get a kick out of ruining ppls nights? well in this case ruining my big mac meal that was cold by the time he let me go....

hiwastar

The solution to many of these issues is to keep a video camera in the car and keep it rolling all the time. When the officer asks you the typical bait question of "Do you know why I pulled you over" You assert your 5th amendment rights and advise him that he is being audio and video recorded. Then dont say another word.

This has gotten me out of several trumped up bogus charges, including a "street racing" ticket where a kid in an S10 pulled up next to me and said "Wanna go?" And you could hear me say "No man I am not into that stuff". He took off, I sat for a moment and then proceeded out. Predictably, I get lights in my rear view. Court date two months later and the judge practically called the cop an idiot for not getting the kid in the S10. I have completely nullified testimony from several officers who flat out lie during testimony (Whole truth and nothing but the truth my ****) thanks to my handy dandy camera. It is a civilians only tool against bad law enforcement agents.

The vast majority of police in my experience (which will be different than yours so please don't waste my time with the "painting with a broad brush" tale) are there to serve and protect their jobs and they are most certainly not your friends. I never used to think this when I was younger until I got into cars and started getting pulled over for no reason by bored Barney Fife townies. Didn't take me long until I realized what the system was really about.