whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Yea you really need to know where and how to spend money to make a car fast. Obviously if you start with the heaviest civic they make and try to make it fast it's going to be much harder than starting off with an 88-91 style 2000lbs hatchback. My brothers car at the moment has a 135 HP VTEC engine in it and runs a 15 flat. Thats on par with almost every third gen stock for stock and 10 HP does WAY more in a car that light compared to a car like our third gens. I personally don't care for turbo hondas. You can make them nasty all motor as long as you start off with a lighter model. All motor hondas will hook like a monster off a dig and the short gering makes them a good run for even a V8 off the line. Not to mention it's nice to be able to rev to 8k RPM before having to shift.

And all4u, was your bros car 15K when he bought it? I don't see how you could sink 20k dollars into a honda. He must be spending money on all the wrong things. The most expensive and best motor I've ever seen for a honda is the RSX K20 which sells for about $1800 and a turbo kit is around $2000 for a good one. Not sure how he lost 20K!!!!

all4u

It's actually not that hard to lose 20K when you build up little hondas. WhitedevilTA, yes, a K20 is cheap, and so is the cheap turbo kits, but how much power do you think the stock internals will take? Not much, therefore, it costs money for a rebuild with forged internals.

How high of revs can the stock valvetrain handle? Unless you want valve float or for a valve to makeout with a piston, it's upgrade time. That costs money.

Do you have enough fuel coming in to power your boosted engine? The stock fuel system was for an econobox POS, and now you want it to actually make power? More upgrading, and that cost money.

Haha, did you really think your stock ignition was going to be strong enough to fire through a dense A/F mixture when it was used to a simple 140 horses? (Or hampsters, depending on how you look at it) Ignition upgrades in the import world are not cheap, and it will cost some bucks. It's not like getting a 6AL box, distributor and some wires. Alot of these cars are coil on plug and those coils are not cheap!

Now that you have a boosted swapped motor that is fully built, do you have someone to tune the spark curve for the new engine? Good, now you got a tune, now comes the fun part.

You have a fast car, but can you put the power to the ground or are you just roasting tires? Suspension costs money. Miind you, most honda are front wheel drive and they can't just punch it and have the weight of the vehicle holding the drive wheels down. Sorry, no such luck. Time for suspension like springs, struts, possibly coil overs, and control arms that won't flex.

Ok, now you got the engine swap, built the internals, turboed the car, got enough fuel, got the spark right, got a tune, got the suspension done, so now, what's left?

I'm assuming putting sticky tires on a honda is cheaper than our cars. Does anyone know what DR's for the little honda wheels go for? I'm looking at $150 a tire for my car and that's with a discount! Let's leave tires out, for now.

I'm also assuming that most hondas are structurally good, but I still see chassis flex from putting so much power to a car that wasn't built for it. I see frame bracing or a cage going into the car and something tells me that it isn't free.

Dropping weight isn't always free, and carbon fiber is expensive. Factor that in if you plan on dropping some pounds.

High boost cars also have the little jinky junk no one thinks of, like high volume oil pump, high volume water pump, deep oil pan, better radiator now that you have an intercooler blocking part of the stock radiator, etc. Figure a few bucks for that.

Keep in mind that depending on compression and how much boost you are running, race gas might be needed. Ask anyone that has used it, it isn't cheap.


Now at the end of all this, I'm bound to hear at least one person say or PM me saying that they can take (enter favorite year civic here) and just do a stock K20 swap, and stick a turbo on it, and have the terror of the streets. It just isn't happening. Sure, it will be quick, but you will be looking tail lights from any V8 with bolt ons.

stealthroc89

You forgot the tranny and supporting components lol, all that adds up too. Hondas are like the Mustang of the import world so you would figure the parts would be cheaper than other imports, right? I mean when you look at it, most of us are working with 55 year old technology in the sbc, so parts are going to be cheaper. Move up to an LSx and you will pay a good deal more (I'm not an LSx guy so if I'm wrong don't flame me!) for parts. It's all technology and thats what you pay for, at least thats the only way I can justify the extra cost lol. Speaking of the tranny components, I have a Half Shaft to replace.............yay.............

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I understand a lot of money CAN go into a car (trust me I've been there) but to spend 20k on a civic sounds rediculous to me. For example, my freind owns a 97 honda civic SI. He built an LS VTEC motor for it with forged pistons (rods and crank can handle plenty of power stock) and a cheaper turbo kit and the car makes 340 WHP. The stock tranny holds up just fine in a honda as long as your not railing gears.

The total money he spent to build it including the stronger clutch, tuning, wheels/tires to hook better, and all the engine parts was around $6K. Now his car is set up pretty decently. He doesn't have a ton of suspension goodies, and he's still on stock axles, but I just don't see how you could throw $20K away on a turbo honda. Not sure why you would need a carbon hood or any of that jaz either unless you want the show factor. They're light enough as it is and a carbon hood will take maybe 10 lbs off.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to argue.....I've just known many freinds who have built many types of cars and I've never heard of that much money having to be spent to get a set up to "work." I almost can guarantee that I could build a car using the same platform as your bro's with half the money or less that would be just as fast.

And as far as no honda being able to take a V8 car off a dig, I assure you there are plenty. There was a kid on the honda forum going 13.79 @ 100 mph in the 1/4 with a stock K20 swap in a hatchback. I think he was ripping off 1.7 60 ft's.

Turbo hondas are crap if you ask me. Useless power and will burn the tires off at 80 mph. When you build a honda all motor, the "no torque" factor actually works to thier advantage because that plus short gearing makes them rip through the first few gears without much wheelspin. I've seen guys get in the low 300 whp mark with a very streetable all motor K20. That in a 2200 lbs car will hit in the 11's in the 1/4.

Theres a vid up on LS1tech of a kid with a bolt on LS1 4th gen that raced an all motor acura integra with a stroked stock engine and the integra puts about a car and a half on him through 1st and 2nd gear and he slowly passes the acura through 3rd. I'll agree a V8 car is a tough car to beat stoplight to stoplight, but there are plenty of 4 bangers that can do it.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

For all the neigh sayers who think a honda can't move from a dig. Watch till the end of the vid. And the car he races is an LS1, not a V6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1UzBK5hPHQ

all4u

Sure, you could spend less money and go almost as fast, but how long until something breaks? I don't want a car that constantly needs fixing and isn't reliable. Also, yes, they are quick because they are light, so what? My fiero is light and it will outrun a 305 tbi f body, but it doesn't mean it's fast. How can you justify buying a "cheap" turbo, and a stock motor, and then think it's fast when you know that if you did it right, you could push the combination to the limit and not worry about something going snap!, crackle!, and pop! Also, the K series is the way to go, but a B series and H series is crap. There are too many people that have H series swaps and it is like turboing a KA24 in a 240sx, you will still have a torqueless POS. What is the point of running your car upto a buck and a half on the highway just to see who tops out higher? Most drags are a sprint from one light to the next, at least around here it is. Most races are less than a half of a mile.

And I didn't mention the transmission because honda transmissions are pretty damn durable, I'll give them that, the clutches are ok, but the rest of the trans is already very strong.

I also agree that the civic is like the mustang, alot of aftermarket support and alot of people are running them. But also, people forget that displacement always wins, all things being equal. Put a full exhaust on a honda, then on a 350 tpi camaro or firechicken, who gets more power? Yeah, the 3rd gen weighs more, but torque and grip comes into play.

Also, I mentioned the carbon fiber seeing as every single import guy I come across has to mention how his car weighs less and that they are constantly stripping more weight out of their car. I guess they could take the hood, trunk, and doors off and save alot of weight!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Horsepower isn't reliable period. If we were concerned about reliability, we wouldn't be driving third gens, haha. We'd all have toyota corollas. My turbo 5.3 will be a time bomb waiting to go off and when it does, I'll build a forged motor to take it's place and last a little longer, but when I do, I'll be cranking up the boost which will put even more strain on the motor. It's just an ongoing game and when it brakes, you build it better......but HP and reliability I've come to find are not good freinds.

stealthroc89

Ya, the general theme on this thread has been, a turbo/modified Honda will beat a stock 3rd gen. Its been repeated a few times, and honestly, if you sink money into something that can't beat a stock 3rd gen you have some real problems. Then you get into the power to weight ratio, as covered before, just with different numbers
2100lbs divided by 200 HP = 10.5 hp to weight
3400lbs divided by 230 HP (350 TPI) = 14.7 hp to weight
Then with horsepower you gotta have torque sooooooo,
2100lbs divided by 140 TQ = 15 grand total of 25.5 power to weight
3400lbs divided by 335 TQ = 10.1 grand total of 24.8 power to weight
I could have went with better numbers for the Iroc, but most 3rd gens stock aren't the 245hp and 345tq versions. The 5.0 rolls in at about 26, depending on what numbers you plug in. Don't know if the numbers can even be applied like that, either way, once torques thrown in there it becomes a different game, also, theres traction and other variables to work with, but the Iroc should have it. Stock!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I understand where your getting at, but in all honesty, torque really does nothing past 1st gear. Torque gets a car off the line, horsepower wins races. A car with a 10.5 power to weight ratio (P/W) is going to absolutely kill a car with a 14.7 ratio any way you slice it. So the third gen may jump out for the first 60 feet but after that it'll get reeled in and then lights out.

I have been "street racing" and drag racing for the past 8 years. Every summer I meet up at least once a week with freinds at our car scene and we set up races using the power to weight calculation, and past 1/4 mile times to get as close a race as we can between 2 cars. I have seen a TON of different cars race. 9 times out of 10 the faster car is ALWAYS the one with a better P/W ratio, even if it's by a few tenths. I'll admit once in a blue moon we are surprised, but then again some people we know are a bit shady on thier mods. In all my experience, I have NEVER seen a car win with a lot less HP but way more torque. It just does nothing past getting off the line, or say for a quick initial punch from a roll race. HP will always win in the end.

If you sleep better at night knowing you stomped a car through first gear leaving a stop light and then shut down at 40 mph, so be it. I consider a race going through at least 3 gears. Thats how I've always determined a faster car, and thats how I'll continue to do it too.

I just want to shed a little light on this whole debate. Some people are so ignorant and think a V8's torque will never lose and that a third gen is god (I love them to death though). Well there are plenty of faster cars and a lot have 4 bangers in them. I respect all cars. I owned a 2008 mustang GT for a year and a half and it was a blast. I personally think it was built light years better than an LS1 4th gen, and was much more enjoyable to drive. I've also driven my brothers past cars like his EVO, SRT-4, WRX, and regal T. Some of you don't know what torque is until you ride in a well set up EVO. His made 355 lbs ft to the wheels and it made full torque at about 2700 RPM, and the turbo spooled instantly. It'll leave an imprint of you in the seat after a WOT blast. Obviously the majority of cars your going to see on the street are not going to be well set up, which makes them look like turds. Then when you finally see the one thats a screamer, maybe it'll change your minds.

stealthroc89

I agree with you, 4-bangers are nothing to take lightly anymore, EVO's are just stupid, WRX's eh....... they're ok, a little too mushy. To tell you the truth, if I had the money to build the tranny and transfer case up in my 93 Eclipse GSX I wouldn't have my Iroc. After changing trannys 3 times and the eventual belt tensioner failure I was tired of all the "little" things going wrong and basically gave it away. I love my Iroc and its the greatest thing since sliced bread in my mind. While they're not the fastest, they do hold thier own on the street pretty well. What I was meaning in my last post wasn't torque wins races, instead its everything working together properly that wins races, which is why I combined the numbers. Theres no 1 thing that makes a car fast, right?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Your definately right with that one. It's the whole setup...gearing, HP, torque, weight......it all works together, and thats what makes a car fast. Those DSM's can be brutal when built! The problem is, thats only when they run!

I've seen plenty that'll break all 4 tires loose from a 1st gear rolling punch. Theres a kid around my area that combined an all wheel drive 500 whp DSM chassis with a hyundai elantra body and interior. Can you say sleeper? Haha that car is crazy. Another kid had a VW beetle with a new hemi swapped into it. I can't beieve some of the cars people will build. They make for a good conversation piece though.

GreekItalianMan

The difference is, most third gen guys are extremely passionate about their cars. Most of the setups i've seen, the guys, they put hell of a lot of work into their cars. Most ricers just slap on some turbo, a giant wing and lower their springs and that's it. Maybe it's just the chinese in my area. But, that's all i see around here. Then you get the russians who buy bmws and try to taunt me on blocks that have children crossing.(No brains) Any car will be fast if you put the time and work into it. But,ricers do have weight while we have torque. Can go either way. But, no ***** can have the power and have the style and comfort an american muscle car has. No matter how you slice it that's the stark truth.

GreekItalianMan

Thanks, bro. I know this might not be on topic but it does relate to all of us. http://autos.aol.com/article/police-airplane-radar/ I think this is completely invasive. I mean that's pure bullshit. It really pisses me off. This country is restricting every freedom possible. This ain't america anymore. **** the government.

ville_valo_05

lol i myself am not a big import fan, but i bought an 88 pontiac lemans just to get me around till my trans am is up and running, guess what? it was manufactured in the republic of korea with a 1.6 daewoo motor in it lol.... giving me nothing but problems but it is a fun car to play with when it runs right

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Well, I won't say too much about the Honda Civic because I don't really care for them all that much. My brother has one of them that he put a few mods on and he has dogged the heck out of that car. He has an automatic in it and he would freaking manually shift it on the highway @ 60mph+.

Whether or not these 2 cars even knew you were trying to race them is also up for debate and interest. A bone stock healthy 350 TPI is fast and it's not like it weighs that much in the broad scheme of things. Yeah, the Civic, especially the 80's and mid 90's Civic's are much lighter and smaller so if you put a turbo on one of them and some headers and do some intake work it just might smoke a 350 TPI but not everytime.

Most guys who own our types of cars including the Honda's, Toyota's or any car that has been held as potentially quick or fast (think Fast & Furious movies) beat the crap out of their cars and therefore the power output is less overtime vs. a healthy and stout car.

GreekItalianMan

The toyotas,hyundais,civics and other cars the ricers used aren't made for racing. Even if they do all the mods to intake,turbo,and such, their chassis aren't made to handle the torque of racing like thirdgens are.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

What's your definition of racing? I mean, what kind of racing are we talking about? I'm referring to street racing which there are plenty of these cars doing that along with ours too and other F-body cars. I have to be honest though, and I'm not a big fan of low torque cars but those cars can get alot of power in them with alot of money and do pretty good on the street or strip. I guess my point is that I never underestimate another car even if I think I'll really beat them.

itsMikey

hondas are econo-boxes...not good for anything else..thatisall

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I happen to agree with you but with the newer cars of today, you got those same Honda's making 260 horsepower to the flywheel and 250 ft. of torque that would more than likely beat a beat up old Third Gen. to death.

itsMikey

some, if not most..yes sadly..

not mine and many others i know tho..

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

True, true. I had one of those really nice looking Fusion's which comes with some nice V6 power try to out accelerate me from a redlight because the lane he was in was a shorter ending lane and I guess he wanted to cut in front of me but I blew past him once he took off the line. I pi@@ed him off too, lol.

GreekItalianMan

It might seem like that. But, that's just toyotas and hyundais desperate attempts to attract buyers back. Probably Most of their customers are flocking to buy challengers,mustangs,and camaros. Even street racing is too much for those economobiles. You can slap a turbo and everything and yeah; it'll be fast, but the body,and engine aren't made to handle the stress put upon hard acceleration. Same with the new "cars" today. Their suspension isn't tuned correctly. And among other things. It doesn't matter if you're making 10000 hp at the wheel. After a small amount of hard accel and drifting the car will break down much faster than if a muscle car or racing car was to do it. Bottom line is those cars were not made for anything but a "fun" economobile i smoked the inifinti x something, new hyundai sonata. They aren't anything special. Don't have any amount of torque. and the sonata has a turbo in it. But,i'll admit i only have 12k on my 305 its pretty much brand new. But, you can't expect an 80s muscle car to compete with today's technology. They didn't have near as enough know-how as they do now. Take a 392 srt and put it against those economobiles and you'll smoke the pure **** out of them.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

True, true. But we have to admit, the few 80's cars like ours were top of the line back in the day with style, suspension and decent fuel mileage for V8's. My uncle was a senior in high school back in 1988 and after I told him I had bought a IROC a couple of years ago he said that back then if you had a 350 IROC-Z or a Foxbody 5.0 you were the "king" at high school. This is coming from a man who used to race a CRX hatchback away from cops and racers on street roads too, lol.

GreekItalianMan

Yes, back in the day those cars were top end muscle cars. I would've loved for my father to let me have this car during HS. I would've smoked all the bmw douches and ricers.I'm sure your uncle is itching to drive your car once more. My dad has the Trans Am book and i was reading it. They said the GTA was the car of the year when it first came out and was one of the most inventive driving machines since the originals. But, after that with the flood of immigration(again,90's) A lot of chinese and koreans came here, then gas went up and emissions started with global warming and it destroyed the muscle car movement. The foreigners that came here started buying the economobiles. No more need for muscle cars until mustang,camaro, and new challenger came out a few yrs back. It feels like it's starting again. I mean despite i have to pay 3.69 for 93 octane. Muscle car era is starting again. I filmed my dad toying with some douche in a hyundai sonata(brand new 2010)

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, gas is high running on 93 octane here too. It's abit less than what you pay but right now it's @ $3.27/gallon. I'm getting about 13-15mpg since I'm in the city more but it's not too bad on the highway.

I'll check your video out later so don't delete the link please. Thanks.

GreekItalianMan

You're getting a lot of mpg for city use. what are you running if you dont mind me asking?. I'm getting 9 in the city and 13 on the highway. I wont delete the link for now

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I don't know, but I'm easy on my gas pedal usually. Sometimes I'll wreak havoc on the pavement beneath me because I get so bored driving slow and watching my speedometer and everyone passing me by, lol. When I do that then it eats up the gas alot faster.

GreekItalianMan

I guess that can be a problem. heavy gas foot.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I commented on that video. PM me if you want my Youtube link too.

GreekItalianMan

Yeah, i will PM you. Is it alright if you delete the quote with the link in it?

54inches

My 5.0 5spd did alright, faster than every Z that I raced even some later model ones. It happened alot more than they liked.

Exactly.

Your numbers are WAY off and your assumption about the 5.0 TPIs is flawed. IROC, WTF?

It's 245 for the 5.7 and 230 for the 5.0.

AMEN.

Guest

thank you for making the power to weight ratio clear to everyone

GreekItalianMan

Anyone who needs a turbo to beat a stock car shouldn't be proud of that achievement. I'm not here to argue but, honda and pretty much the rest of the jap industries came out in the early to mid 80s. Henry ford was the first inventor to make the assembly line and the first car and here comes the big finish-IN AMERICA. Japan just took the idea of the car and changed it to fit their needs. They did this similarly way back when US invaded them and they saw the battleships and copied the techniques. And anyone who wants to make claims that Jap cars can beat American Muscle needs to do some research. The guy who invented the VTEC engine made it for economy purposes. American muscle was made for comfort, style, and performance..... Not gas mileage.

stealthroc89

245hp is what the later 5.7, dual cat cars made, most 3rd gens don't have that option. Most had the 230hp/235hp single cat exhaust, so why would I use the biggest number available when it's not the most popular? Same goes for the 5.0.

1BADZ28SD

iTrader: (4)

ur wrong on that went i had my 350 tpi with 245hp stock no bolts ons like u said ill be honest no 1 got me and i race alot of civics, civics si , eclipses turbo and 1 hatchback b20 vtech tuned with a bucket seat carbon fiber hood, back door no interior wat so ever got me like 1/4 of a car how can ppl say hondas are fast c mon now yes ur talking about hp rite but it has 345 lbs of torque its what actually pushes u off the line don't matter if u have 500hp with out torque that means nothing hondas don't have torque like muscle cars that's my point of view

BrandonSB

i like this man in a non homosexual way.

Camaro305SB

Jesus christ what do you have done? Factory ratings are around 16/24!!

GreekItalianMan

I'm just tired of this country catering to idiots.

GreekItalianMan

I only have an air foil change, cold air induction and gale banks exhaust. But, i burn up the streets. Idk what it is, but i can see the gas needle slowly going down when i'm driving in the street.

BrandonSB

i agree with you 100% no freedom in cars anymore. you do +20 over to break in your new engine and the cops are confisgating your car, just cause you put out more ponys than there POS car. wheres the fun in building a 1000+hp car unless you go to the drag strip? wheres the constant adreneline rush that isnt over in 1/4mile? its just getting ridicolous. yes i do agree speed does kill. although i dont see a problem if its in a desserted area. or empty streets.

1BADZ28SD

iTrader: (4)

bad drivers makes us good drivers look bad i mean there's some people that non there racing and there's people that think they know racing that's went accidents happens im 23 never had and accident racing ,city , anywhere

GreekItalianMan

Yeah, My dad tells me stories of how back in the day when he had his 72 grand prix, 80 TA, 81 Turbo TA,and 86TA he used street race corvettes,and every other type of car. And the cops wouldn't do ****. Used to race on the highway and it was like an actual race. Surprisingly over here the cops are rather lenient with me. Aside from the dick ricers and russian/jews with BMWs that are always getting caught. The last few muscle guys over here never get tickets. I guess it's cause cops are too busy giving out parking tickets. It's just sad that this country has taken a 180 from what it used to be. Prius' and imports rule this country and they make cars for people that are the size of gnomes. I can't count how many car commercials are from Toyota,Hyundai, Honda,and BMW. But, maybe that's a good thing. American car companies will keep stepping it up to beat the competition

GreekItalianMan

Yes. Ever since 911 they have gotten really out of hand with security and ****. I mean i saw it from my school building and it was a horrible incident the dust even reached my house in Brooklyn. But, they have overstepped their boundaries with all this security ****. For gods sake they are using predator planes to track speeders. Instead of wasting it on some ***** with a death wish use it on the war in iraq. People who usually build 1000+ hp up cars aren't irresponible anyway. They know the risks and dangers. Not to be stereotypical here but foreigners and the teenage ricers are the ones who speed on busy streets and get themselves killed.

ville_valo_05

i know exactly what you mean, it's the same down here in georgia, i had a kid in a ***** the other day tryin to drift through my neighborhood on wet roads in a honda civic and took out part of my fence and got damn close to my engine and trans am, my swampy dirt back there saved his life, if he'd have hit that car i might have had to shoot him

GreekItalianMan

What a lucky sob. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid ricers are. And i bet you he wouldn't have the money to pay for the damage he did to your TA. I would feel the same way if he hit my car. Shooting would be too quick. A bat would be struck across his head and body a few times.

BrandonSB

i agree, the kids that think there in "the fast and the furious:Tokyo drift" but dont know what the f*c# there doing and crash into everything. the little rice kids with the lawnmower mufflers. and then you look at over in india how they drive and were letting them teach people here how to drive? im not racist dont get me wrong, but i mean shouldnt our own people be teaching us how to drive like theyve done for years before? aswell, these kids are arrogant and think there king **** drivers when theyve only been driving for like a month. which then in turn makes us people who do drive carefully and cautiously but do have fun, look like jackasses and raise our insurance. i hate being judged on all these other stupid teenage drivers and being labelled as a "dangerous driver" just because of my age? /endrant

BrandonSB

not only do they get themselves killed, they kill other innocent people while tryin to show off on a busy street. its pathetic and ignorant.

BrandonSB

very true. and we get punished for there stupidity with raised insurance. our insurance is bad enough. lol. especially at my age.

1BADZ28SD

iTrader: (4)

true that blame Hollywood for there little ***** movies fast and furious . if ur going to race at lease have something word racing rite freaking 4 cylinders

BrandonSB

not only 4 cylinders, 4 baby cylinders hahaha.