Whats with all of the 3rd Gen vs 4th Gen posts? Not trying to flame!!! There seems to be alot of TTA vs _ _ _ _ especially.
In 1989 when the Turbo Trans Am was released it was the fastest factory car GM produced, yes faster than the GNX and Corvette. It ran very low 13's dead stock. With a chip and slicks it was a 12 second car easily. The car most people compare it to is the new Firehawks and SS Camaro's. This is like comparing apples to oranges. In 1989 the LS1 did not exist, the L98,LB9 and Turbo 3.8 were kings. This is were the flaming begins!!! The LS1 is no comparison to the TTA stock or modified. Yea you can put a supercharger or turbo on a LS1 but you can upgrade the 3.8 too. The 80's 3.8 wasn't even a 180hp engine in N/A form. After all in GM Tech Magazine there was a 4th Gen Formula with a TTA engine and a larger boost setup and it ran like 10's. C'mon this is a 3rd gen site quit rootin for those darn 4th gens. There fast but not un beatable by any means.
Also does anyone remember the 1992 Firehawk also faster than a LS1 stock vs stock.
Once again not trying to flame here, but lets hear it for the 3rd Gens.
In 1989 when the Turbo Trans Am was released it was the fastest factory car GM produced, yes faster than the GNX and Corvette. It ran very low 13's dead stock. With a chip and slicks it was a 12 second car easily. The car most people compare it to is the new Firehawks and SS Camaro's. This is like comparing apples to oranges. In 1989 the LS1 did not exist, the L98,LB9 and Turbo 3.8 were kings. This is were the flaming begins!!! The LS1 is no comparison to the TTA stock or modified. Yea you can put a supercharger or turbo on a LS1 but you can upgrade the 3.8 too. The 80's 3.8 wasn't even a 180hp engine in N/A form. After all in GM Tech Magazine there was a 4th Gen Formula with a TTA engine and a larger boost setup and it ran like 10's. C'mon this is a 3rd gen site quit rootin for those darn 4th gens. There fast but not un beatable by any means.
Also does anyone remember the 1992 Firehawk also faster than a LS1 stock vs stock.
Once again not trying to flame here, but lets hear it for the 3rd Gens.
Member
I agree with you that in the 80's and early 90's GM made its coolest cars...ie GN, TTA, ZR-1 and the coolest in my opinion the 92 Firehawk
Member
The two should not really even be compared, the third gens paved the way for the fourth gens. Many lessons were learned fron 82 to 92 that the 93 ups are benefiting from.
Perry
Perry
Senior Member
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.
Senior Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
that was a complete waste of 5 seconds reading that.
LMAO
you do realize a simple chip on the 3.8 will give 50hp +?
your argument only holds true if both motors were completly built from the bottom up to make max hp.
buck for buck the 3.8 will be lightyears ahead of LS1. LS1 parts are expensive still, 3.8 parts aren't, and its much easier to install a bigger turbo on the 3.8 than the LS1. if you want to make power on boost with the LS1 you will need to change pistons and lower compression or you wont be able to use much boost, so believe it or not, coming factory with a turbo is an advantage!
All you need is a slight boost in turbo psi and you gain incredible power (look at the supras, GN's, Syclones, turbo daytona's, eclipses.. all can show great gains with simple tuning!
Personally I don't have a preference of engine, LS1's are good motors and nothin beats the sound of a v8. but your arguement was as erroneous as it was ignorant.
Supreme Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
ok...how many LS1's have u seen in the 8's? i know of 2 turbo buick motors that have 8's, and i THINK one has hit the 7's. Its pointless to argue which engine is better. The LC2 motor was WAY ahead of its time as far as technology goes. I'm tired of the "there is no replacement for displacement" arguement. There IS a replacement. Nine out of ten times something u do to a bigger engine will yeild better results than a smaller engine. But not in this case. Like said above, to put a reliable turbo kit on a LS1 it will take quite a bit of work..pistons computer fuel system etc. The LC2 cars already have it, all u have to do is upgrade, hell custom chips are going for 20-50 bucks. A simple turbo,injector,chip upgrade you are running low 11's/high 10's CONSISTANTLY and spending less than $1700.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
I'm in no way saying the LS1 is garbage, i've driven a few, and i'm impressed, very nice engines, nice torque..nice higher RPM power and very smooth. But to say the turbo 3.8 isn't up to par with a LS1 is just plain retarded. Unless you've driven one you have no idea, and unless you've done your homework on these motor or have worked on them you have no idea to the potential of this setup.
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*89 Trans Am GTA
*Moderator at www.transamgta.com
To hell with the GM vs Ford war. We must unite, as brothers to fight the plague that is overtaking the world...RICE
Tony
Supreme Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
i am gonna go ahead and agree with you on this, even tho you just got flamed for it- i think you are right. a n/a LS1 (2k1 and 2k2's) can run a disputable high 12's but undisputable low 13's with a decent driver. thats n/a. thats what your turbo 3.8's ran stock, and the ls1 has room for a supercharger or whatever you see fit. he is right, there is very little room for improvement on the turbo 3.8 in comparison to a n/a high 12 second motor. there are many forced induction setups for ls1's to give them far more horsepower than the 3.8 can put out and still remain streetable. the fact that 3.8's are still competing with brand new engines with far more displacement is cool, but lets face it. there were too few of these made, and if you own one, you dont race it because they are rare as hell and gaining in value every year, and if you are racing it, your a dumb *** . if chevrolet put a turbo 3.8 in camaros and firebirds throughout the thirdgen era, this would be a different argument because you would see lightly modded turbo 3.8's spanking ls1's all day long. but the fact that a select few pontiacs came with a motor that beats ls1's which are in mass production does little to impress me. later guys,<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cort351w:
I don't believe any of that nonsense about 3.8T being so much better than LS1. Thing about this: you say you can upgrade the LS1 to make it faster than the 3.8T, but you should also upgrade the 3.8T the same (at least the same $$) and then see if the 3.8T isn't still faster (if it was in the beginning). Fine.
Here are the things you are leaving out:
1. No replacement for displacement.
2. 3.8 is turbocharged stock, begfore any mods have been done. Therefore, the 3.8 has less potential than the LS1 due to reason 1. and the fact that it is barely faster than the LS1 with a turbo on it. That is one mod that is completely eliminated from the 3.8's option list. True, for the $$, the 3.8 may be made faster, but the LS1 can be made much faster in the end.
A turbocharged (really, twin-turbocharged) LS1 can be an incredibly fast motor.
This is the whole thing--slap the turbo on the LS1, optimize the entire engine to work with that and you will be so much faster than the 3.8 could ever hope to be because the turbo on the LS1 can do more with the larger size.
There is a reason that real drag cars use large engines--see reason one that the LS1 can be faster than the 3.8.
It just doesn't make sense to bet on the little 6 after both engines are taken to potential.</font>
Seth
Supreme Member
i still don't understand how anyone can say there is little room for improving the turbo 3.8...there is PLENTY that can be done...it just doesn't take many improvments to make these cars beasts. As far as streetabillity goes, i know mid-low 11 second GN's and TTA's getting over 20 MPG...i'd take that anyday 
Finally the TTA gets some respect, When I get done i'm going to melt some pop cans and make an LS1.
Supreme Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODY BEHNKE:
Finally the TTA gets some respect, When I get done i'm going to melt some pop cans and make an LS1. </font>
i would laugh but it would be at you and not the joke...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODY BEHNKE:
Finally the TTA gets some respect, When I get done i'm going to melt some pop cans and make an LS1. </font>
melt some more pop cans and make some aluminum heads while you are at it too heh. everyone here respects the TTA, but not many people here have the patience to tweak and tune one til you hit 11's or 10's
Supreme Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODY BEHNKE:
Also does anyone remember the 1992 Firehawk also faster than a LS1 stock vs stock.
</font>
A firehawk is not stock, its an SLP modified car. Thats like calling a saleen or shelby mustang stock...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODY BEHNKE:
Also does anyone remember the 1992 Firehawk also faster than a LS1 stock vs stock.
</font>
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1983 Firebird
TH700R4 Auto
Small Block 400
LG4 ECM, Intake, Carb, Distributor, etc.
Soon to be non-computer.
Clarion Head Unit 45X4
2 Pioneer 400W 12" Subs
Third Gen Performance
"A four cylinder is half an engine."
"Ponies can run, but birds can fly..."
[This message has been edited by Ward (edited December 02, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ward (edited December 02, 2001).]
I know the Firehawk is tweaked I was just wondering if everyone forgot about it, because I never hear it brought up when dicussing fast 3rd Gens. It may be SLP modded but its still one fast 3rd Gen.
As for you unknown host way to go the first negative feedback, do you have anything important to say?
[This message has been edited by CODY BEHNKE (edited December 02, 2001).]
As for you unknown host way to go the first negative feedback, do you have anything important to say?
[This message has been edited by CODY BEHNKE (edited December 02, 2001).]
Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by unknown_host:
everyone here respects the TTA, but not many people here have the patience to tweak and tune one til you hit 11's or 10's
</font>
Well I dont anything TRUER could have been said.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by unknown_host:
everyone here respects the TTA, but not many people here have the patience to tweak and tune one til you hit 11's or 10's
</font>
It takes patience to tune them and most people dont want to do that, they want to bolt on a part expect INSTANT results, I think its also a BIG reason most guys who buy chips for other 3rd gens dont like them, they dont tune the car to it and try to figure it out.
ALSO on a note the TTA will go 12's so easu ANYONE can do that, even those with no patience.
I think its WAY to early in the LS1's life to know if it will hold up like the LC2 3.8 Turbos have.
Phil
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1989 20th Anniv Turbo Trans Am
minor bolt on upgrades
12.79 @ 110 on REAL radials and street trim.
Senior Member
I was not saying that it would be cheaper to make an LS1 fast. I'm pretty sure it would be much more expensive because, like you guys pointed out, LS1 parts are very expensive. No, $ for $ the 3.8 is much faster. What I am saying is that if both engines are completely maxed out with no consideration for how much it would cost, I would seriously doubt that the 3.8 would be faster.
And as for the replacement for displacement, you can add that replacement to displacement
(TT LS1)
And as for the replacement for displacement, you can add that replacement to displacement
(TT LS1)