Ok guys, Ive been hearing all about the new 390hp blown cobra from my Ford lovin' friends. I have been told to expect a corvette competitor...but I doubt that (405hp LS6). I wonder if they will be 390hp for real...remember the '98 cobras? As far as GM...this will be the last year for the fbody...so we'll have to compare a '02 car. I have seen a few dyno charts from a stock '01 LS1's that are putting out 310rwhp or more. There goes GM's 310hp flywheel rating. I have also seen many bone stock LS1's run high 12's. I think these two cars will be a great match. I'll go ahead and say the LS1 will win by a fraction of a second.

What do you guys think?

What do you MUSTANG guys think?

 

#1- Will they really mass produce this thing?


I really like how Ford makes this now that the F-body ig done. I dont't think it will pull better that a 12.5, not because of a bad driver, rear suspension or anything like that. It will just be over rated by Ford.

I think it may edge out a N/A LS1 but that is all. I really don't think it will be eating Viper's and ZO6's like Ford does.

In the end does it really matter? A supercharged LS1 will give it's a$$ back on a silver platter.

 

I think an important thing to remember is that the cobra is a hard core auto-x car. The suspension is made for the twisties and the twisties only... Very stiff and independent all around I believe. That said, an all purpose or strictly drag racing design will have an advantage with equal or slightly less horsepower. The gears are probably also in different proportion. So I'd say that the 400+ Hp 'vettes are still going to win out. I don't think it's a flaw in design either, the Cobra is a strong pick for auto-x just not drag racing. I'd give a 390 Hp Cobra an estimated High 12 or low 13.

 

I dunno. No way to really tll until the car actualy gets here. Yes, the carwill be mass produced and it's about 32-36K.

The car is only a few mods from over 400HP. A free-flowing exhaust will help the blower dramatically and a pulley change can also add a Lot of HP. This Cobra is only boosting 8psi wih 8.5:1 compression. A smaller pulley can easily run 10-12 psi.

FYI, a preproduction model was dyno tested after break in...it tested 405 flywheel HP...stock.

I hope this car turns into the car all Mustang enthusiasts have been crying for since 1993.

 

I don't know what you mean chillphatcat, the cobra is not an autoX car any more than a vette is. In fact, Z06 vettes dominated their class this year in SCCA solo II. Ford's independent rear is not as good as the vette's, plus Ford overrates, and GM underrates. the cobra is no Z06 killer!

If an 02 LS1 Fbody raced an 03 cobra, i have to pick the cobra, it's got more power, even if it is a bit overrated. These cobras will also have a 6 speed. I think it's funny that Ford has to resort to a huffer to get power, OHV ALL THE WAY!!!

 

But it is also 4.6L vs. 5.7L

OMG...I sound like a *****....

 

4.6 vs 5.7........is there some sort of law that says ford cant use the 5.4 or the 460.....no! I hope all the cobra owners are happy knowing that they have 2 cams, cause they sure as hell dont have the faster car.

Here's a list of arguements I deem Horsesh*t when it comes to who wins a race

" I have more horsepower/cubic inch"
" My car is lighter than yours"
" Lets race on the highway"
"Well, my friend has a 9 second Civic"
"I get better gas mileage than you"
"Lets see you drive cross country"
"If I run race gas then I can run 35lbs of boost and beat
"I need a towel to get the sand out of my Vagina"
" My dog ate my car so I cant race....even though I already ran my mouth"

 

I hate mustangs but have to agree that it would win. A friend of mine's dad got to drive one , he is an engineer for ford and he said it would beat one. Might I add he owns a thirdgen camaro so he is not a biased opinion. I believe it would win, but they have to supercharge it to win, and have two cams. In my eyes they are cheating.

 

I agree that it is lame to put a blower on a car to make it fast. We know that ford has the 5.4 sitting there, so why don't they use it? I think in a race the Mustang would edge out the Camaro, but I think the blower is a cheap way to make horsepower on a production car like the Cobra.

 

All this talk about they HAVE to do it like this or that to win is pure bull**** IMO. They chose a route to go and went with it. Fact is, the DOHC motors LOVE blowers, and everyone wants a blower car with a warranty, so that's what they get. These things are going to benefit a lot from Lightning technology, so don't be surprised when there are 450-500 hp '03 Cobra's running around the streets. As far as handling goes...the '03 Cobra is running on the exact same suspension the '00 Cobra R did, so there will be no doubt that it'll be able to carve corners with the best of them.

I guess we'll just have to wait until May to find out what these things can do. From what it looks like, Bob Cosby is going to be putting one to the test on the dragstrip when they come out.

 

Bob Cosbys going to an '03 when they come out? Will they let them run in Fact Stock, or will they be too quick with the tires and gears.

 

food for thought, i heard that for the Vette's 50th anniversary (the 03' model year) it will be sporting a blower as well. Not to mention it already handles just slightly over 1g (Z06). Just because the fbodies are dead doesnt mean GM is.

 

He was dropping strong hints on the Corral about trading his '99 in on one. I highly doubt they'll allow it in F/S.

I did the hp/weight ratio calculations and it came out at 12.32 @ 110, so I don't think low to mid 12's should be out of the question. Remember, these things are making 390 ft lbs at 3500 rpm, so the lowend is there to put up some real good numbers.

 

I also did the weight/horsepower calculations and came up with this........Ford still sucks

Everyones running from this monster, give me a LS1 and a Supercharger and I will slay the mighty serpent.

 

I'm no Ford lover. In fact I don't like most of their cars. But the Mustang is not one of them. I've liked the Mustang from day one, even before I liked thirdgens. I just like thirdgens more because of various reasons. I think it's awesome that Ford's making this car. I'm sure GM will respond in kind. This is the kind of automotive competition we speedfreaks should like. I'd much rather have Ford make a s/c Cobra than make a new behemoth like the Excursion. Aren't V8 RWD cars what we're all about? I know I am. The badge on it doesn't matter, since automakers couldn't give a rat's *** about our opinions unless we have the money to sway their's. The Camaro and Firebird are prime examples of this.

As far as the Cobra's need to be supercharged to be faster than a LS1, big deal I say. First of all, it IS a smaller motor, 4.6L vs. 5.7L. Why do you think they say "no repacement for displacement?" Why the hell Ford chose to stick with the 4.6L POS, only Ford knows. Yes, it would have been a lot better had they dropped in a worked over version of the 5.4L motor, but they didn't. Instead they used a supercharger to overcome displacement limitations. I don't see anything wrong with that. And to all you guys harping about Ford slapping on a supercharger, how many of you would turn down a factory s/c'ed thirdgen, if there was one?

Lastly, GM vs Ford? Get over it, man! There a bigger evil out there to be fought. It's called RICE!!!!

 

Very well said.

 

If i had an option between a naturally aspirated car and a forced air car making the same power, I'd take the n/a car. That's why i like LS1s and LS6s. the next vette will have what will be called the LS7, I have heard they'll have 450 hp naturally aspirated. I doubt gm would resort to a SC for the vette because of tradition, they've always been n/a. Ford also sux for using that lame 4.6 and the point is that new tech is not always better tech. LS1 engine family is the best example of this. Perfect what you already have, don't waste time developing a whole new setup like ford did.

 

True, I would rather have the N/A car, but it doesn't mean that in the long run on mods the car is slower than the LS1. These 4.6s have proven to be able to run well into the 9s, 8s and I've seen 7 seconds out of one.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but are there any 7 second LS1s out there? Justa want to know.

 

not that i know of, but who wants a 7 second car for the street? if i was going to spend enough money to go 7s, I'd use a big block and spend a lot less money, why compromise with a 4.6?

the LS1 is fairly new and more emphasis seems to be placed on road racing and circle tracking. the LS1 is now used for ASA circle track racing. all they do is put a hotter cam in them and run em, they are very reliable under full race conditions. the speedvision world challenge and motorola cup are also places where LS1/LS6s are competitive.

I'm sure if someone spent however much they did on a 7 sec 4.6 on an LS1, they could go just as fast or faster, especially with astronomical boost numbers from a supercharger!

 

exactly.

 

Latest issue of 5.0 and Superfords came yesterday and it had an article on the '03 Cobra. They claimed it was under rated at 390 hp and said the factory exhaust on them is very restrictive. I'd rather see real life test results though, because you never know if the first one was a ringer or not.

What I'm curious of is how much boost will that blower make with progessively smaller blower pulleys? They've finally got the low end to safely push 25+ lbs through that motor without touching the longblock, but I seriously doubt the roots blower will make that much boost. I bet someone's going to end up swapping on the '01 intake and throwing a Novi 2000 on it real soon.

Also, I think the live axle swaps are going to be big again.

 

Wow guys,
I wasnt trying to bash on ford when I posted this. After reading various articles on the cobra, I think they will be a very nice car. I find nothing wrong with Ford's drivetrains or even thier bodies, I just dont like mustangs because I do not like thier interior. Stock vs stock...I still think it will be a close call. Hop on over to www.ls1tech.com and check out what those guys are running. I saw a guy with a stock '02 WS6 Trans Am, with an AUTO post a time of 12.8. But I'll be the first to admit the mustang will dominate after a few simple mods. I'm still waiting to see fords 6 speed transmission too. I was never a big fan of the way the shifter sat in 94+ mustangs...hopefully they will fix it.

I think Ford has made a great attempt at producing a vette killer...but I HIGHLY doubt the Cobra will catch a stock Z06. The vette makes more power and torque, and is lighter. I am looking forward to seeing these cars out on the street. They also seem like quite a deal at around $35,000. I think Ford is on the right track with this car. Maybe to make the race "even" we should let the LS1 car spray . My friends '98 camaro runs 10.68 with stock heads, stock bottom end, and a cam swap.

-peace

 

I wasn't trying to bash Ford in my earlier posts but why is it that they supercharge everything, dominate N/A cars and say they did something special. Anyone can put a Supercharger on something roots or otherwise and make it fast. Before my 1994 Trans Am took a dump I ran a simple Vortech on it and made two passes, the car regularly ran 13.9 with it's other mods. After the supercharger it pulled two 12.98 runs, then a couple of the hyd. lifters collapsed and I called it a night and trailerd it home. If a N/A LS1 can run 12.8 to 13.5 stock look at what is possible. All I am saying is that Ford wants to out power GM but has to cheat (And yes NOS and a S/C is cheating to me) to achieve this.
I don't buy the whole " but it's only a 4.6 " bull either no one is limiting Ford to that displacement.

N/A F-body vs N/A Mustang= F-body
N/A F-body vs S/C Mustang= Mustang
S/C F-body vs S/C Mustang= Why bother with the Mustang

 

Not particularly relevant, but an interesting thought for the modular mustang boys who put blowers on their 4.6 motors. In order to 'safely' accomplish the same thing on the 03 cobra, ford has replaced the aluminum block with an iron one. Apparently
(from what I have read), tests using the aluminum motor and the eaton blower were less than satisfactory, ( can we read bang?)

Cheers

Richard

 

So would you consider it cheating that GM used a turbo charger on the GN's and TTA's? I wouldn't. It's just another way of making horsepower. Is Porsche cheating by using turbochargers on their cars? No? What about Bugatti?

It's pretty simple actually... ^ air + ^ fuel = ^ horsepower.

There's 3 ways to induct more air into an engine:

1) more displacement

2) more rpm

3) compress the air going into the motor so that you can get more in

It's not rocket science.

Scenario 1: We've been crying for Ford to put the 5.4L into the Mustangs for years, but it would cost too much for Ford to retool their assembly line to fit the 5.4L into the Cobra's for the last year of the SN95 chassis. Strike option #1.

Scenario 2: It would be pretty ridiculous for Ford to build the 4.6L to rev even higher when they already freely rev to 7000 rpm. You don't want your peak horsepower that high in a street car. Strike option #2.

Senario 3: Hey we've got all this technology that we've already developed on the Lightning. Here's an idea: let's put it to good use on the Cobra! Everyone knows the mod motors respond really well to boost.

Sounds pretty rational to me, how about you?

 

I think GM needs to learn a few things from Ford. Ford also needs to learn a few things from GM. The mustang is definatly on the right track. I dont think that it will touch a Z06 on the street, strip, or track. GM needs to have the Camaro head the same way as the Mustang. Ford needs to learn about handling a crisis from GM. You dont hear about the massive recall of all of GM's big SUV's(The front suspension would literally fall apart) because as soon as it started happening, GM called all its customers and told them to park it and they would tow it to the dealership.

 

Can't ford bore / stroke the 4.6? I don't really know anything about those motors at all. That way they could close the gap in displacement a little and make any S/C add ons more impressive. Also, is this the dual cam or the quad cam motor we are talking about?

 

The 4.6 can't be bored out because the cylinder walls aren't cast thick enough, but what they can do is remove the cylinder sleeves from the block and spray the bores with a ceramic coating that serves as hardened cylinder walls.

The FR500 was basically a DOHC 4.6L stroked out to displace 5.0L with the spray bore technology. It made 416 hp n/a and ran 12.70's on 18" street tires. IMO, the '03 Cobra really should have been the FR500, but it's cheaper to just slap the blower on the 4.6 and call it a day.

 

You bring up some good points. This is why I don't think brand loyalty holds much weight. Both manufacturers have their faults, so IMO neither one is better than the other.

 

Seems to me that the supercharger is just a bandaid for the power that the 4.6 can't make. Ford wishes that they could make 405 hp out of a single cammed, pushrod V8 that gets high gas mileage and puts out low emissions.

Ford => :hail: LS Family

 

I got to thinking about my suspension arguement, Cobra vs Z06 and decided they are pretty close in design... but I think they would make some more impressive numbers in the 1/4 if they ran a softer suspension... say high 11's? Maybe... anyhow nevermind my ramblings.

BTW Ford makes a 5.8L (351) for those that questioned the use of the 4.6 (283) and of course they have all the ability in them to make a 5.0 (302) again...

What we should consider here though is that back when ford started making V8's, the 283 was their staple engine... so it makes sense from a marketing stand point to bring back the 283.

 

One thing I'm wondering is about changing the pulley to increase boost. I might be wrong, but I've heard that the pulley on the lightning is not removeable without doing some damage to where it's mounted. It voids the warranty if you do it. Is the cobra going to be like that too? HTat would be a sizeable problem if you want to increase power that way.

 

that's 281, not 283, and i agree that ford wishes they could make an engine as impressive as the LS1/6.

 

Most of the guys change out their crank pulley to avoid damaging the blower; however, some guys have successfully changed blower pulleys.

They do...it was in the FR500.

 

And...

Ford no longer has the capability of making the Windsor line without spending big $$ on retooling their assembly plants. The last 5.0 block made was made over a year ago and they no longer have the machinery to do so. Besides...I think there's just as much potential in the mod motors as there was in the Windsor motors. Take J.R. Granatelli's mod motor Pro 5.0 car...he ran 7.40's with a 5.4L with little more than forged internals and a big turbo his first time out.

Also, the mod motors are already making more power from the factory than the windsor motors ever did. I agree that a little more displacement would be nice, but Ford's caught on to a good thing and I'm personally glad to see that they're sticking with it.

 

I like the pushrod motors the best, but lately every time theres a thing about a Ford, the LS1 gets brought up. I'm not saying its bad, but seriousely how many of the guys on this board own LS1s, or cars that will easily beat an LS1.

It just seems to me to be like the ***** with his 120hp Civic bragging about how the Civics in the Fast and Furious would kill any Mustang or Camaro.

Sorry if this sound rude, but my car was hit the other day (By a Chevy!!! J/K) and I'm in a bad mood.

 

Sorry to hear about the ride, Nothing feels worse than when you hear the sound of metal crunching.

But I think the reason the LS1 is being discussed is because we are comparing a LS1 powered car to the new cobra.

-peace

 

yep, not fair to compare a 2003 cobra to a 3rd gen. although there are many cars here that could beat it! LS1 is the natural competitor, and my 305 can beat an LS1!
They don't sell FR500s!!! you can go buy an LS1/6!! GM has the best motor, not ford.

 

Yup. Ain't that always the way it is.

 

I too like the LS1 better, but if Ford ever put a 351 pushrod in the Mustang, the best motor wars my change hands.

 

I heard something once i dont know if its b.s. rumor or what..
thje story i heard was that ford has a car in the works..the name for it now is the superpony..Supposedly 900h.p....wich i think is no where close to street legal..and at the same time chevy has a car with the same numbers..but cant find a car to put it in?!!
so whats the story with this?

 

You may be thinking of the SVE Super Stallion. It was a '98 Mustang with a roots blown 5.4L DOHC making 600 hp.

 

it's like a civil war isn't it? 351 or 302 is too outdated to meet emissions though.

 

I personally like them all (Windors, LS1's, LT1's, mod motors, and basically any SBC or SBF), but the mod motor is quickly becoming my favorite.

 

Nic, I'm the same way with liking all small, and big block motors from detroit. I just don't prefere the Mod motors, because after working on a friends blown 98 Cobra, I realized how much of a pain they are. It seems to be easier to wrench under the hood of my car and since I do all the work, and don't pay anyone, I appreciate it. Now those Firebirds (my cousins) are another story!!! No room, header problems, distributor, and the all important exhaust not going in right. No hate, just a lot of swearing.

Never heard of the 900hp, but the superstallion has a wicked paint job and a serious motor.

 

Heard you on that...nothing like the ease of working on the 5.0. One of the guys at our shop sold his 94 Z28 after the first spark plug change because he never wanted to have to mess with it again.

Sometimes I think the Hyundai engineers purposely make the simplest things a pain in the *** to work on just for kicks

 

I don't know, Third Gen's are much easier to work on than 4th Gen's.

 

They are definately easier than the 4th gens, but nowhere near the Mustang, as far as tune ups, and exhaust in my opinion.

 

A ford needs to be easy to work on because of the frequency of repair needed (Just a joke ford guys).

 

I'm not personally offended, but there are plenty of people that will flat out explode on you for saying such things. IMHO you should be a little more conservative with praise for the mustang, without founded support already from actual thirdgen owners. I myself agree the exhaust and engine platform were better thought out in third gen mustangs, but Ford also built a lot of flaws into those mustangs... it's purely car by car. I think GM has a much better track record in the 80's. It's all opinion though, in general I like most american muscle cars.