Since today I have the day off, I took off the valve covers and checked out my rocker arms for a pre screw up learning lesson on heads.

I still haven't gotten the replacements yet, another day or two at the most. I've got self aligning rocker arms I believe.

They come clean off with no hassle really. No valves dropping or nothing, I put it back together to figure out about valve lash or something but couldn't figure anything out, I ended up tightening them all the same with some slight movement on the arm left and right like the other 4 rockers I didn't remove. The pushrods were snug, but still could be rotated by hand with some decent grip.

I think I had a harder time with removing the valve covers come to think of it. Oh and I'm glad I only got the 650 CCA battery.. friggin thing hurts like a bitch when it zapped my hand. On top of that while the whole thing is apart it pours rain on me like last friday. I close it up get what I can into the garage and then with the last piece into the garage it stops and the sky clears up in a few mins and its sunny and blue out. Ha ha.. someone got a good laugh at me.

Not sure if this is the right, but the pushrods that go to the camshaft are free and easily removable, only problem I see is if I don't make sure they're rested on whatever they're resting on I could lose them in the engine. Hence I use a vicegrip with tape on the tips to keep a firm grasp on it. The valve springs I figure are connected to the valves hence why no clang when I got the rocker arm off, just in case I rotated to TDC on cylinder 1 in case to save me some heartache.

I don't imagine a great boost from putting in 1.6 rockers, but it sure will be better than the olds ones considering that I stared at them as they were moving and I swear I could see them flex.

A friend of mine told me that rocker arms should only take me 2 hours at the longest, if not I should hide like easyspeed for awhile lol. J/K

BTW Easy, did you get the rad yet? Give me a call when you want to put it in, I'll lend a hand if you need.

Hey Slade the rockers are pretty easy work and don't worry about the pushrods the new ones will slide right into the lifter pockets no problems. If you are curious shine a flashlight down the rod hole.

Uhhh... you did get new push-rods right ? Always replace the push-rods with new rockers unless you want to go back and do the job again in a few months ?

The valves will not disappear on you and the new rockers will screw down without event. When I have had to re & re them I just tightened them all up so that there is no play then start it up and adjust it by sound.

- back off the rocker slowly (too fast and it will stall) till it clacks
- tighten it up slowly (too fast and it will stall) till it stops making noise
- make a 1/2 turn final adjustment, next rocker...

Little more work with full rollers (two nuts or one screw and one nut) but same method.

Don't be surprised if you feel the rockers right away. The old setup was probaly worn and flexing around 1.25 to 1.45 ratio. The 1.6s with new rods will be very accurate and translates into power. When I installed my rollers in my '88 I new right away never regretted it.

RP.

I thought the general rule was new lifters/pushrods/valves springs with new cam. It's a bit conflicting, some say can use them, though ill advised, some say change them. I dunno but if the price is right, new pushrods it is!

These 1.6 rockers were only $350 bucks down from $391 a few months ago, so I figure the old debt pile was thinning up (I had only $1600 left!!!) Compared to last year at this time I had almost $15000 in debt... making progress here.

Update, rocker arms ordered are 1418-16 Magnum rockers with roller tip. I think the geometry may not be changed much if at all despite being 1.6 ratio.

I think you're being overly optimistic here palric, I don't think the rocker arms can even give the butt dyno a boost. The cam is the pathetic peanut cam, and its not even close to what the 305 tpi's got.. let alone yours or 92 zeddar's 350 cam.

The duration is a joke on my cam 179/195 not to mention lift in the sub 0.400 range... I'm amazed that I can even pull 15's at this point...

You going to have these installed for Cayuga?

As for valve lash, I've always used the method Palric mentioned. Never had any problems.

It will be cool to get some actual track tested numbers for rocker arms alone... there is alot of debate on this subject. Personally I would have gone for a cam for about the same price.

Price isn't the issue, no matter what I'd get rocker arms sooner or later, the sooner part is better due to the fact I can install them now and still use them later with no hassle.

Cam swap is a major undertaking for me, have a/c even with the rad off, the ac is in the way meaning the engine has to get lifted in order to get the cam out which I can do, its just time is the key issue here and its something I don't got a lot of lately.

Besides, if the cam goes, the intake is going too, and valve springs, lifters, and the tbi. Maybe the heads too. I can't just do a cam swap alone, its all or none. Heck I have the freaking log headers still and that's on the priority list for changing, but prices on headers with air are rape... so my best option is get without air and fashion my own air tubes for it, but that takes time once again. Now if I win the lottery, no need to work and just mod to my hearts content... f that I'm getting a fourth gen!

for some reason i too thing that you must change the push rods too. palric seems to have said it all for me.

Slade if you need a hand with thing give me a shout, you know I am always up for seeing what sort of gains people get. As for me I am going to be doing the intake in the next month or so....I will let you know what sort of improvement I get.

If you do the intake remember you are still limited by TBI, heads and cam.

The good news is that that the TBI mods are essentially free. Provided your injectors are up to the task (observe the spray pattern and observe the cone radius, you should be able to radius out the bore larger as long as the spray allows for it.

You can increase the spray pattern by raising the injector height (spacers) and increasing the fuel pressure.

The heads can be ported out and although they are not the best heads, they are not the worst flowing heads either. With the intake off you can take off some casting flash from the intake holes.

All said and done, you should be good for a cam change too while messing down there I don't recall you having a/c in the way so get that cam in there. Most peanut cam conversions see a decent 4 mph gain in trap speed without nothing else done. (LT1 cam)

Your TBI in my opinion is in a better state to be modded heavilly than mine, it already has the junk removed and headers done.

Thanks for the input man...I am going to start with the intake and work from there. I will be sure to let you know of whats going on over the winter this year

You will see about 2-4 degrees duration increase and somewhere in the low .400s for lift. Keep in mind when I first did RRs it was on a peanut cam'd L03 TBI and yes I did notice the diff immediately which may be because the cam is so inadequate ?

Not the kind of improvement to really light things up but as I said noticeable. Oh yeah the first set was Comp Cams Magnum roller tip rockers in 1.65 ratio. Later I did the RRs in 1.60. I would go with the roller tips again they are one SOLID unit have you compared them with the factory units ? NO comparison, real value for your money.

I ran an Isky cam at 1.5 ratio with .480/.505 lift later in 1.65 it was .528/.555 lift. I used Comp Cams conical valve springs which were good to .550 lift I got 25,000kms out this setup before I sold the car -- zero problems.

I would not replace the springs on my Formula cause it has 78k on it, well not just for 1.6 rocker install. Yours has 200-300ks ? IMO you have to replace those springs or you will see a failure soon and it will be ugly (broken springs let the valve drop into the combustion chamber).

I'll be doing all this too during the winter buildup but in my case it will be new heads (oops... trying to keep this a s e c r e t ...).

adious,
RP.

1)No new pushrods needed...

Why do you need to change pushrods??

2)Also duration doesnt change with a change of rocker ratio

3)Valve is not gonna fall down if the valve spring breaks

4)Those springs are more than adequate for his application

5)

1) Always change out pushrods on new rockers -- why ? Well Comp Cams says so -- maybe they just want to sell you their pushrods ? But they make a decent argument -- the pushrods wear the most at the rocker and usually in a pattern according to the rocker. When you install new rockers that wear pattern may cause the rod ball to fail or the rocker seat to wear prematurely.
Question -- do you know for sure that your existing high mileage rods are perfectly straight and if not what effect will they have on your new rockers geometry ? For $75 I'll get new rods and not worry about it.

2) According to David Vizard of Small Block Chevy Camshafts and Valve Trains, the switch from a 1.5 to 1.6 ratio rocker can increase duration at .050 by 2 to 4 degrees. Not my claim -- just what I read great book BTW I read it I learn I read it I learn...

3) If valves don't fall down from failed springs what holds them up ? I mean if your spring disassembles/shatters itself at high speed and the valve is in free float what prevents the possibility of it's contacting the piston ? When I last changed my valve springs I compressed them with the tool, pulled the retainer and watched the valve drop....

4) Which springs are more than adequate for his app ? His factory ones ? Are they the ones with the 300,000kms on them ? Well if it were up to me I'd replace those springs if they were newer (has he replaced them lately ?) then maybe not ?

Like I said on my 78k motor I wouldn't do springs for 1.6 rockers but push-rods for sure. Another $75 after $400 in rockers is not much. Easy work just pop them in.

RP.

1)bent and EXCESSIVELY worn pushrods should be replaced regardless of changing rockers or not.. but if its not why would you need to??Roll the pushrod on a flat surface like glass and watch it reeaaaally close..

2)key word "can"..depends on how agressive the ramps are..stock TBI cam whaddya think?

3)retainers keep it up..failed retainers (aka locks)will cause it to drop..Shattered springs??Have you experienced a broken spring before??

4)If it were up to me Ill measure the springs before replacing it...Its still not a "have to"..

5)easy but takes time..makes your 1 hour rocker arm job into a 4 hour spring and rocker arm job

Daz

Ok I've got the rocker arms and pushrods, but I can return the rods if I don't need them. According to instructions, do not use stock pushrods if there is flaking or wear of the rods. Well the good news is from a visual inspection, the rods don't look any different than the new ones I got. Heck if it wasn't for the oil on the old rods, I would end up mixing them up.

The glass test is probably the best simplest test to perform on them. I'll roll out each one and see if I need to replace them or not, but I have a feeling the rocker arms flexability plays a big part in why they look like new (from a metalugical standpoint they could be weak and prone to breakage though, sucks not to have an x-ray handy huh?)

Comp instructions have a conflicting instructions on exhaust rockers, say to crank the engine till your sure your on the base of the lobe, for the intake, same method as we agree on to use for intake. My reasoning is, WTF are they doing say only to do that for the exhaust and not the intake??? Why would the exhaust be any different than the intake lobe with regards to installation? Wouldn't it make sense to say do this for ALL rocker arms? Odd huh?

another part of the instructions(p 1) says you can use old puhrods as long as they meet the glass test and no metal flaking criteria, then on page 3 they do a 180 and say YOU MUST change pushrods. Makes you wonder who they get to write these instructions...

I'll return the pushrods if my pushrods are still good, odds are 1 will be slightly dented and will have to accept my $80 investment in peace and security.

Lastly, I'm not changing springs, I'm getting at best a 0.02 lift gain over what I had before and the stock springs are good to up to 0.450 lift, tired or not. A lot of people have done larger changes.. ltx cams come to mind without changing anything except the cam. Mileage isn't any different either, most tbi owners on the tbi board are at the same level as me in milage with a few even MORE than me. Considering the strength of this engine, stock mid 15's I'm in good hands.

Daz -- just trying to say it is easy work replacing push rods and some sources say YES do it and some say MAYBE do it while others say something else altogether...

I'll be the first to admit re & re of springs while the heads are on the car has to be one of the nastiest jobs. Don't wish it on me or anyone else. Springs can break up I had it happen before well that was on a Ford so who knows about them ?

Good luck Slade let us know how it goes.

RP.

I used the "rotate the pushrod while tightening then with some resistance, add an extra 1/2 turn" method.

I figure if I go to much it will cause hesitation. If I go too little it will not open and clack. Essentially if it has a smooth idle and its not clacking, I think I'm alright then.

It took me 3 hours, as expected, 1.5 hours was spent getting the firggin valve cover off on the passenger side. I had to take apart the entire air system to do it. By the way, if anyone wants to remove that *** forsaken system I know how to do it in a snap now!

I didn't notice anything in the ways of power, although that didn't stop me from trying to see if it worked. It looks like I have a pretty consistent climb in rpm up to 4000 rpm in third now, from my observations I think the torque curve got a bit flatter. Always a good thing. I'm hesitant to push it till I have it broken in.

On another note, I don't think results on Sunday will be reflective of a rocker arm change. Take this into thought, its October now and temps are really low and humidity along with it. Cayuga has a better track than Sparta hands down. I pulled a better avg time at the sparta track with no traction (2.3 avg 60 ft, 15.7 avg) compared to when I had 2.2 avg 60 ft and 15.8 avg.

Slade,

Where dide you get the Pro Magnum and how much?

Daz

I got them from karbelt for $351.

What two tracks are you comparing your times too. Sparta and....Cayuga? or Grand Bend?

Sorry to backtrack here guys but I have a sorta off topic (yet on topic) question...

The valves on my lil Jjimmy (4.3L V6, identical to a 350 valve train minus two cylinders) make a *** awful clicking/tapping sound, so I assume the rockers either need tightening or I have a couple of blown lifters (hopefully the former). How much oil would I lose if I fire up the engine with the valve covers off? That'd be easier than cranking it over with a breaker bar to get each cylinder at TDC, but I don't want to cover the driveway in oil...

The driveway didn't even see oil.. the headers, a/c, brake booster got sprayed, but nothing a rag couldn't remove, the headers I sprayed with some soapy water when ultra hot, the steam really does a number on oil.

Did you get Pro Mags or Mag roller tips?

Negligible oil loss. Here is what I did -- cut some common cardboard (from a box) and shape it to fit in the edges of the head conforming to the bends at either end. Kinda cramped but it stopped the oil pollution on my shiny engine.
I used a piece that was about 8-12 inches deep. My sockets were long enough to reach the rockers and the cardboard extended far enough away from the head to catch the oil.

No mess.
RP.

IF you have stock heads go to Performance Improvements/Karbelt and get one of the Mr.Gasket "rocker arm clips"..I forgot what exactly theyre called but go over the rocker arm and keeps the oil from spewing all over the place..Its about $15

Daz

Me and my bro did a spring/pushrod/rocker swap on his car last fall. he had a broken spring and it did not shatter and Ive never heard of that before. Usually it just snaps in a spot or two and that cylinder is more or less out of commission for power. Those rocker arm clips are a definately must imo for adjusting valve lash. They work perfectly, are cheap and can be re-used if you ever need to re-adjust the lash. glass pushrod test works perfectly... SBlackfoot check your plugs, they should give you a good reading if anything is messed up with the valves in a cylinder or two. As for the whole swap out the springs and pushrods to be safe talk, **** it. If what you got is good then leave it. Sure 75 here and there might not be that much but it all adds up and if its not necesary just save the dough. Thats just my say on the topics in here...
greg

How do these rocker arm clips work? Do they just redirect spraying oil or what? This is the frist I've heard of them. Where is Performance Improvements?

I was thinking about trying to find a spare 4.3L valve cover, cleaning it up, taking it to and blasting six holes (or a long slot) through the top with the laser at work so I could adjust the rockers through it. Overkill?

Pulling the plugs shouldn't tell me much... It's running well (aside from an annoying vacuum leak I haven't tracked down yet), it just clacks pretty loud when it's cold or at certain points in the RPM band under load.

Thanks for the tips guys, I just want the 4.3 to last until I can get the space to work on a 350 swap.

It doesn't even spray that much... get a few old shirts, cover the area you're working on and adjust the one or maybe two rocker arms you have a problem with. The only time I'd worry about loosing a lot of oil is doing all 16, but even then I did it and lost not even 200 ml of it altogether... heck even my dipstick still read close to the full mark. It's not a constant spray at least on my setup, and at idle cold I run close to 400 kpa when I did my rocker arms...

I still think the clips would be worth $10-15 though. Not really just the oil loss. It would get oil on your engine bay... manifolds/headers would start smoking, it could give a decent burn if you got it on you. I dunno I guess if your engine bay is dirty and your doing it not in a garage or somewhere you dont care then it doesnt matter. But I would still splurge for the clips just to save you the trouble. Also will come in handy if you ever get solid lifters on that tbi beast .
greg

I like the idea of the clips too, although I'm not sure what they look like or how they work. Any chance Canadian Tire would have something like that?

I'll probably just readjust all of the rockers (Yep, all twelve in this baby. lol) so I'd like to do something to prevent a mess. It's my first time playing around with a valvetrain so it'll probably take some time...