okay here's what's going on...
I'm have an appointment to put on my SFCs tomorrow morning. For some reason I went and told my dad I'm welding SFCs on my car tomorrow, and oh boy, here it comes, a lecture in metalergy.
He is telling me that when metal is heated, it loses its "crystaline" structure. He told me after a time that part of metal that was heated will lose all it's strength and cracks will appear. He is basically screaming at me telling me that I will ruin my car by welding these things on.
I told him that what he is telling me is complete
and said I'm doing it anyway.
Anybody have any input on this case. He told me he took an engineering course in university and many metalergy classes and he knows what he's talking about. I would like to prove him wrong...
I'm have an appointment to put on my SFCs tomorrow morning. For some reason I went and told my dad I'm welding SFCs on my car tomorrow, and oh boy, here it comes, a lecture in metalergy.
He is telling me that when metal is heated, it loses its "crystaline" structure. He told me after a time that part of metal that was heated will lose all it's strength and cracks will appear. He is basically screaming at me telling me that I will ruin my car by welding these things on.
I told him that what he is telling me is complete
and said I'm doing it anyway. Anybody have any input on this case. He told me he took an engineering course in university and many metalergy classes and he knows what he's talking about. I would like to prove him wrong...
Supreme Member
Your're not seriously heating up the frame in any way.
The frame already has a bunch of welded joints.
By welding you fuse the sfc and frame with a weld compound, not melting the frame and sfc and hope they mesh together...
The frame already has a bunch of welded joints.
By welding you fuse the sfc and frame with a weld compound, not melting the frame and sfc and hope they mesh together...
Supreme Member
dear lord......
Supreme Member
I think wrongful birth is actionable in tort at least in some parts of the USA. That's like where the children of people who should'nt reproduce can sue their parents for having them in the first place. Maybe you could try it as a test case here in Ontario.
Senior Member
Just tell your dad that you didn't mean they were actually welding the SFC's to the car, but you ment that they are just going to use JB Weld to put the SFC's in place. Its practically the same thing isn't it? 
Supreme Member
Ha JB weld...crap in a tube! Well it works...I guess. If your cheap and can't by things like a new oil pan or something. Like said by SLade. They have been welded at the Factory. Stuff like that only applies to Heat treated parts. or heat tempered. Not frame rails. Tell your dad to give his head a shake.J/K No don't!! But explain this to him and maybe he'll get off your back
Senior Member
Tell him you're getting them bolted on instead just to make him happy. One thing I've learned about fathers; even when they're dead wrong they'll never be told otherwise, especially by their own child. My father still won't listen to me when I tell him that batteries in a flashlight are in series and not parallel (and that all cells lose power equally, not just the top one 
), even when I hook up a DVM to show him... lol
), even when I hook up a DVM to show him... lol
the welds will only be small and will not matter take it from the expert the frame is made from thick metal and should not be a problem. If he gives you a hard time tell him I will show him where I work and where we MIG weld the hitch assemblies for the H2 hummer and if the hitch off that beast can take a $hit load of welding then your subframe can take a little.
Paul
the frame is made from thick metal and should not be a problem. If he gives you a hard time tell him I will show him where I work and where we MIG weld the hitch assemblies for the H2 hummer and if the hitch off that beast can take a $hit load of welding then your subframe can take a little.Paul
Supreme Member
hahahaha ya rigth... what about the 100s of welds from the factory. they must all be cracked by now
Supreme Member
resisting.....urge.....to.......run mouth......must.....not post.....sarcastic reply.........
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding. I posted this question in another thread and I got one response that sums it all up. I just thought I'd quote it. To the others, thanks.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vader
O.K., I'll play Devil's Advocate. I'm also afraid I'll have to agree with him. Welding metals requires heating the base and added metal (and/or filler material) to a point of being molten, to alloy the pieces together. This process WILL affect the microcrystalline structure of the metals and weaken them. In that respect, he is 100% correct.
However, from a practical standpoint, welding is also often the most effective means of joining two pieces of metal. Despite the weakening of the surrounding material, the strongest attachments are typically through welding.
A trained or certified welder will understand this metallurgical "Catch 22" and adjust the heat settings accordingly. He/she also will not quench the area immediately to provide the best possible annealing and may even reheat the area overall, then quench to normalize the parts (preventing hard and soft spots). Of course, under your car this might not be practical, so cross your fingers and hope the welder uses the correct minimum heat settings and works quickly and in several areas at once instead of building a long, continuous bead.
The factory uses resistance (spot) welding to connect the sheet metal while creating the smallest possible weaknesses. They also have the advantage of welding bare metals and finishing it later to prevent corrosion. Learning something from them, make sure you finish the area after the welding to prevent corrosion.
To quote a certified welder I know, "Welding is one of the worst things you can do to metal. It is also the best way to stick metal together."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Later,
Vader
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
All my life I've been searching for something. Something never comes - never leads to nothing...
Originally posted by Vader
O.K., I'll play Devil's Advocate. I'm also afraid I'll have to agree with him. Welding metals requires heating the base and added metal (and/or filler material) to a point of being molten, to alloy the pieces together. This process WILL affect the microcrystalline structure of the metals and weaken them. In that respect, he is 100% correct.
However, from a practical standpoint, welding is also often the most effective means of joining two pieces of metal. Despite the weakening of the surrounding material, the strongest attachments are typically through welding.
A trained or certified welder will understand this metallurgical "Catch 22" and adjust the heat settings accordingly. He/she also will not quench the area immediately to provide the best possible annealing and may even reheat the area overall, then quench to normalize the parts (preventing hard and soft spots). Of course, under your car this might not be practical, so cross your fingers and hope the welder uses the correct minimum heat settings and works quickly and in several areas at once instead of building a long, continuous bead.
The factory uses resistance (spot) welding to connect the sheet metal while creating the smallest possible weaknesses. They also have the advantage of welding bare metals and finishing it later to prevent corrosion. Learning something from them, make sure you finish the area after the welding to prevent corrosion.
To quote a certified welder I know, "Welding is one of the worst things you can do to metal. It is also the best way to stick metal together."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Later,
Vader
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
All my life I've been searching for something. Something never comes - never leads to nothing...
Supreme Member
Quote:
Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding. I posted this question in another thread and I got one response that sums it all up. I just thought I'd quote it. To the others, thanks.
*snicker*Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding. I posted this question in another thread and I got one response that sums it all up. I just thought I'd quote it. To the others, thanks.
Yeah, i'm a dick. I've accepted it and so has my family.
I currently have my name on 3 CWB tickets.
Once again.......
POT
KETTLE
BLACK
whatts a CWB ticket?
Supreme Member
Canadian Welding Bureau
Quote:
Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding. I posted this question in another thread and I got one response that sums it all up. I just thought I'd quote it. To the others, thanks.
I gave you some honest advice and did not make a joke of it. My job calls for all kinds of different skills and welding is one of them and I have seen some things get welded together that should not have been and they held up ok. Here is something to look for when the connectors or the frame itself turn blue around the welds then you are in trouble because blue is metal in its most brittle state. Another thing paint the welds or pust some kind of rust coating on them to stop the welds from corroding and makesure the guy welding them knows what he is doing and is not some yahoo who has no idea what he is doing.Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding. I posted this question in another thread and I got one response that sums it all up. I just thought I'd quote it. To the others, thanks.
Senior Member
I will agree that heating metal to a liquid state does in fact weaken the metal as the atoms are put into an excited state and then cool in a disorganized manner, however your dad is thinking in extremes.
The filler used in welding your SFCs will have a torsional strength that is 10x stronger than the mild steel your welding to. (the steel will crack before the weld)
Also, an arc weld is generally MUCH stronger than a MIG weld (arc is a waaaaay hotter process)
that said, an unmolested metal object will always be stronger than an object welded together. It's a nessesary evil however, in order to manipulate metal to serve your purposes.
One could point out that bending metal also reduces it's strength,
drilling holes for bolts also will weaken the metal.
I will disagree that welding is the worst thing you can do to metal, I would say heat bending metal is much worse.
Your car is light and doesn't require very much strength (relatively speaking) Welding SFC's to your frame shouldn't pose a problem unless blatently welded in wrong. Too much heat is not nearly as bad as not enough heat.
I would argue that SFC's welded to your frame will strengthen the whole frame since body twist is drastically reduced. Metal flex will eventually cause cracks and failure as well.
Your dad is right, but he is also wrong
The filler used in welding your SFCs will have a torsional strength that is 10x stronger than the mild steel your welding to. (the steel will crack before the weld)
Also, an arc weld is generally MUCH stronger than a MIG weld (arc is a waaaaay hotter process)
that said, an unmolested metal object will always be stronger than an object welded together. It's a nessesary evil however, in order to manipulate metal to serve your purposes.
One could point out that bending metal also reduces it's strength,
drilling holes for bolts also will weaken the metal.
I will disagree that welding is the worst thing you can do to metal, I would say heat bending metal is much worse.
Your car is light and doesn't require very much strength (relatively speaking) Welding SFC's to your frame shouldn't pose a problem unless blatently welded in wrong. Too much heat is not nearly as bad as not enough heat.
I would argue that SFC's welded to your frame will strengthen the whole frame since body twist is drastically reduced. Metal flex will eventually cause cracks and failure as well.
Your dad is right, but he is also wrong
Supreme Member
You may also want to pre-heat the areas to be welded on the car. And for g.od's sake, make them clean it to bare metal before they start sticking stuff together.
Senior Member
is pre heating nessesary to weld to sheet metal?
those days are long gone when guys were still welding cast iron.
pre heating a MIG weld? dang, thats ****
those days are long gone when guys were still welding cast iron.
pre heating a MIG weld? dang, thats ****
Supreme Member
Don't the SFC's attach to the thick part of the subframes? I guess it is "sheet metal" when you think about it, heheh. I have witnessed "garage" welders. They usually just crank the machine and spray.
Supreme Member
lol AcceldZ, this is a riot, brother......
Quote:
Originally posted by SBlackfoot
Tell him you're getting them bolted on instead just to make him happy. One thing I've learned about fathers; even when they're dead wrong they'll never be told otherwise, especially by their own child. My father still won't listen to me when I tell him that batteries in a flashlight are in series and not parallel (and that all cells lose power equally, not just the top one), even when I hook up a DVM to show him... lol
Hahahaha one day you may be a Son and a Dad at the same time. Then see whose eyes roll ??? hahahahahaha... Originally posted by SBlackfoot
Tell him you're getting them bolted on instead just to make him happy. One thing I've learned about fathers; even when they're dead wrong they'll never be told otherwise, especially by their own child. My father still won't listen to me when I tell him that batteries in a flashlight are in series and not parallel (and that all cells lose power equally, not just the top one
), even when I hook up a DVM to show him... lol RP.
Hey EasySpeed keep up the posts.
This board would not be the same without you.
RP.
This board would not be the same without you.
RP.
Supreme Member
Alex before you let your father claim victory...
Quote Vader
"However, from a practical standpoint, welding is also often the most effective means of joining two pieces of metal. Despite the weakening of the surrounding material, the strongest attachments are typically through welding."
Your car is already welded at joints for ***'s sake...
When done right the resulting joint can be stronger than the area before do to the weld material.
The only car I know of in the world that uses no welds at the joints is by Lotus. It used extruded aluminum, not stamped metal and is "glued" together at joints.
We don't have extruded metal for our frame, we have stamped steel with welded joints and lots of bondo.
You will not weaken the frame any more than at any other weld point. Actually by today's welding standard's it will be stronger than the old weld points in the car.
Key note, if done right. If the guy doing it proceeds to weld it on without cleaning up the area, take your car and run.
Quote Vader
"However, from a practical standpoint, welding is also often the most effective means of joining two pieces of metal. Despite the weakening of the surrounding material, the strongest attachments are typically through welding."
Your car is already welded at joints for ***'s sake...
When done right the resulting joint can be stronger than the area before do to the weld material.
The only car I know of in the world that uses no welds at the joints is by Lotus. It used extruded aluminum, not stamped metal and is "glued" together at joints.
We don't have extruded metal for our frame, we have stamped steel with welded joints and lots of bondo.
You will not weaken the frame any more than at any other weld point. Actually by today's welding standard's it will be stronger than the old weld points in the car.
Key note, if done right. If the guy doing it proceeds to weld it on without cleaning up the area, take your car and run.
Member
Hey, father knows best
Sell them cheap to someone on the site and twist your car. J/K.
But if you don't put them on, ya might as well.
Sell them cheap to someone on the site and twist your car. J/K.
But if you don't put them on, ya might as well.
Ok I'm one of those XXXXhead fathers that is always giving his sons advice that they don't want to hear but I am actually on your side this time.
I am a certified Mold Maker and have taken metalurgy classes in College for two years. Also ran a heat treat facility.
Here's the skinny.
Your dad is correct that heating metal with a welder can alter the microstructure of the metal and cause it to become brittle but this only occurs when the Carbon content of the metal is above .08percent.
Car bodies and frame rails are made from mild steel far below the .08 per cent mark. So there is no danger of the frame rails or unibody becoming brittle due to welding.
The only thing that could become brittle would be the actuall frame rail conectors if an over enthusiastic supplier has made them out of chromoly tubing. (not likely but some roll cages are made out of Chromoly to increase the strength without adding weight.)
A simple test for you to prove to your dad that the metal would not get brittle would be to heat up a piece of body metal until it turns red and then drop it in a bucket of water. If the metal had any carbon content whatsoever this would give you the maximum hardness achievable for that metal. If it was hard you would not be able to file it with a file. If it was brittle it would break when you bent it.
Good luck with your convincing
Ric
I am a certified Mold Maker and have taken metalurgy classes in College for two years. Also ran a heat treat facility.
Here's the skinny.
Your dad is correct that heating metal with a welder can alter the microstructure of the metal and cause it to become brittle but this only occurs when the Carbon content of the metal is above .08percent.
Car bodies and frame rails are made from mild steel far below the .08 per cent mark. So there is no danger of the frame rails or unibody becoming brittle due to welding.
The only thing that could become brittle would be the actuall frame rail conectors if an over enthusiastic supplier has made them out of chromoly tubing. (not likely but some roll cages are made out of Chromoly to increase the strength without adding weight.)
A simple test for you to prove to your dad that the metal would not get brittle would be to heat up a piece of body metal until it turns red and then drop it in a bucket of water. If the metal had any carbon content whatsoever this would give you the maximum hardness achievable for that metal. If it was hard you would not be able to file it with a file. If it was brittle it would break when you bent it.
Good luck with your convincing
Ric
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by palric
Hahahaha one day you may be a Son and a Dad at the same time. Then see whose eyes roll ??? hahahahahaha...
RP.
I won't turn into my parents, I won't turn into my parents, I won't turn into my parents... Originally posted by palric
Hahahaha one day you may be a Son and a Dad at the same time. Then see whose eyes roll ??? hahahahahaha...
RP.
Quote:
Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding.
Dig a hole man...Originally posted by easySPEEDcamaro
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding.
That's right, the one response that agrees with your father 100% is correct and a frame should NEVER be welded on. Yeah, that sounds realistic... Better tell GM...
Supreme Member
By the sounds of it Alex a few of us have our welding tickets here... Does you dad? Come on Alex grow up! Don't ask us for help or our opinions and then try to throw it in our faces.... Not a good idea!
In your words Easy
In your word again
In your words Easy
Quote:
The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding.
Seriously though. By welding your sfc in you have increased the stregth of your cars underbody...period. Don't go getting technical on the fact that heating the metal imperfects it. The sub frames are welded right from the factory!! You figure it out! It isn't that hard to see.The fact that most of you who posted here think this is funny shows how educated you are on welding.
In your word again
Quote:
whatts a CWB ticket?
Only one here who knows nothing about welding is you and you dad.whatts a CWB ticket?
Quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin Kaz
By the sounds of it Alex a few of us have our welding tickets here... Does you dad? Come on Alex grow up! Don't ask us for help or our opinions and then try to throw it in our faces.... Not a good idea!
In your words Easy
Seriously though. By welding your sfc in you have increased the stregth of your cars underbody...period. Don't go getting technical on the fact that heating the metal imperfects it. The sub frames are welded right from the factory!! You figure it out! It isn't that hard to see.
In your word again
Only one here who knows nothing about welding is you and you dad.
OUCH!!!!Originally posted by Cruzin Kaz
By the sounds of it Alex a few of us have our welding tickets here... Does you dad? Come on Alex grow up! Don't ask us for help or our opinions and then try to throw it in our faces.... Not a good idea!
In your words Easy
Seriously though. By welding your sfc in you have increased the stregth of your cars underbody...period. Don't go getting technical on the fact that heating the metal imperfects it. The sub frames are welded right from the factory!! You figure it out! It isn't that hard to see.
In your word again
Only one here who knows nothing about welding is you and you dad.
I was calling only a couple of the guys idiots, those who don't know anything about metal and its properties.
Anyways, drop the topic, SFCs are on. Don't even reply, let this thread go to the very bottom... :P :lala:
Anyways, drop the topic, SFCs are on. Don't even reply, let this thread go to the very bottom... :P :lala:
do you want me 2 lock it?
Member
Awww I missed a chance to knock easyspeed
But seriously, enjoy your car while you can because you just made the frame so brittle... I give it a year or two before it snaps. You will just be going over a speed bump or hit a pothole one day and next thing you know your car will be slammed beyond the weeds my friend...
greg
But seriously, enjoy your car while you can because you just made the frame so brittle... I give it a year or two before it snaps. You will just be going over a speed bump or hit a pothole one day and next thing you know your car will be slammed beyond the weeds my friend...
greg
Supreme Member
I'm sorry Alex but...you sounded a little haisty there and so..... Don't take it personally just becarefull what you say to people, that all.