well,

at the back of the booklet that you got when you registered (green cover) there is a sheet that tells you to send in the form with a self addressed stamped envelope.. so..me being intriqued did just that.. (i dont agree with who won and the other placings for my group)

so i get my judging sheet today and look at it..

TOTAL AND UTTER BS... i lost marks on my paint job...common..the paint job was no less then 6 hours old..nothing was wrong with it..

secondly..the undercarriage i lost marks...thats serious bs cuz they couldnt get under my car cuz its too low..

making a long story short...i was black balled from the get go, i mean i know i should have lost marks for my engine compartment and duely so..(it looked like ***) but i dont think i should have lost that much marks on the other thing..

finally...my score was no lie almost 100 less then the winner, and not because it was my car but cuz his car wasnt as good as the 3rd place winners car, i think that either someone was paid off, or someone has a REALLY brown nose ..

im really thinking twice about entering next year..

iroc2nv

 

I suggest not going there next yr..Its obvious that your car wasnt liked there so why bother?I would go for the body kit nationals instead..j/k...Seriously though as long as your happy with your car what others think doenst matter

Daz

 

Well Gerry from what i know about shows ..........i was ripped at a show when i owned my own Towing Business .......i had a 99 C3500 dually perfect shape and lost to a 97 same truck with $hit paint etc .

It leaves a bad taste in your mouth ........i know the feeling

 

I know it P.O's you when you get stuff like that Ger, but your car is far different with what they consider a Camaro, don't get me wrong as I like it! But being that they could not see your undercarriage, you can't expect them to give you a decent score for it, as htey have no idea. judgeing in a show like this is very serious stuff, I don't think anyone was paid off at all, they just didn't fully accept the look of your car, which you have to somewhat understand for the most part, as it is very different. Don't let it get under your skin man. Like Dante said, it is yours, and you like it, that is all that matters. I found the Camaro Nationals to be very well organized, and quite fair, but they are very picky, and they have to be, so many nice high quality cars in one place, it tuff for all those judges to make their decisions. Enjoy your car, and don't let others thoughts affect what you like!

 

The only classes at that show that are fairly judged from people i've talked to are the driven classes so don't feel bad. You should put some dings in your paint and more signs of wear and then compete in driven j/k... i know how you feel. My car gets shunned at muscle car shows too... oh well. A few closed minded people aren't going to get me down...

 

Gerry,

Sorry to hear about your disappointment in the show.
If you had taken home a trophy I'm sure you would have felt differently.

On that note, you have to understand that the Nationals is not only about taking home a trophy... it's about comaraderie of vehicle owners.... like these internet boards we all belong to.

I don't agree with your statement about being "blackballed". By whom? Why?
The judges all worked from the same judging sheet and none were "paid off". In fact, the 3 new judges were recruited by me from one of our sponsor's dealership. They pretty much volunteered their weekend to do the judging for the club and YOU the participant. They work for GM and had no personal interest in the outcome. The other 2 judges have been judging at our club (and others) for years and have more experience than you appreciate. (And I have no idea which judged your car). I find your "conspiracy" belief funny.

Consider the judging sheet...these are the scores alloted as you can see on your own sheet:

1. Overall First Impression....................... 10pts
2. Body.................................................... 50pts
3. Paint................................................... 30pts
4. Interior............................................... 35pts
5. Trunk.................................................. 15pts
6. Engine compartment.......................... 35pts
7. Undercarriage and wheels and Tires.....25pts
---------
200 total


Sometimes a fresh paint job is not enough to guarantee a trophy. You said yourself that the engine compartment "looked like ***". What about the interior, undercarriage, the wheel wells... other areas where attention to detail scores big? Paint & body work is not the only judging criteria.... is it not possible that several other cars in your class actually outscored you on those?

I personnaly have never won a trophy from my class in 12yrs of competition at the Nationals. But I do go home every year with a better score to show for the improvements I made since the last show. And I am willing to concede that some other cars will always be better than mine. I am also willing to concede that judging is not an exact science and perhaps irregularities will occure. But I will never resort to "sour grapes". My participation in these shows is for enjoyment and companionship. It's not about winning...its about participating for me.

An example: in 1997 when I was at Pocono Pa. for a Camaro show (now defunct) one participant with a newer 4th gen. got upset at the judge about his score. He mentioned his car sat in his garage for a whole year since the last show until he trailered it down. The previous year he won a trophy. He went on to say he couldn't understand how the guy with the exact same car beat him especially since the guy drove it all the way and had a lot of mileage?
This is what the judge did: got on his knees and pointed out the cobwebs in the wheel wells and went on to say that the other guy had taken the time to prepare his car for the show. That was the difference between winning and not. Sometimes judging gets to that level.... but don't take this example as a reflection of the Nationals it's just an illustration that occured.

I would be curious to hear from some of the other participants & visitors to the show. Certainly there must have been some proud moments ...

Here were some of the other attractions of the show:
-opportunity to see 200+ other Camaros and meet their owners
-the escorted Saturday evening cruise by the Falls
-Banquet dinner Saturday night with:
-guest speaker: Tom Hnatiw of Dream Car Garage
-Good Year tire draw…set of four 17” F1 tires
-Goody Bag & Free T-shirt
-various vendors on site
-Early Bird cash draw for persons with rooms
-door prizes all weekend, events
-Silent auction
....and more

Ron

 

I had a great time there and plan to go again next year, but then again I took home a trophy Same with my travel m8


http://groups.msn.com/TDZandFriends/...03.msnw?Page=1

 

I didn't even have a car in the show, and attended both days... all day. Had a great time, lots of awesome cars. I too will be there for sure next year, and the next, and the next. :hail:

 

 

Gerry...dude...you should have asked me first man! I requested my judging sheet last year, with the intention of using it to improve on the car for this year's competetion. It was a complete waste of a stamp and envelope. It showed the areas that I lost mark on, but provided no notes or specifics. Useless.

As for the judging, it's luck of the draw man. My car was in better condition than last year, both interior and exterior, and this year I got nothing. Unfortunately it's the way it goes. Last year I lost marks for my tires...ummm, they were spotless. *shrug*

I doubt anyone was paid off, but the judging was horrible. The pair that did my car did not take the time to look at anything...I don't even think they knew anything about Camaros at all. I don't recall them even looking at my interior, and they did not look at the undercarriage for sure. They spent 1 minute tops looking over the whole car. The previous year the judges were much more thorough and made note of every little tiny fine detail.

One last note...and this is more a note for Pacer to take to the exec...I think it's about time that Mr. Couvier step down and let someone else win first place in that category. The same guy (and this goes for all categories) should not be allowed to first 3 years in a row. He's clearly proven his point that his car is a 1st place show winner, now let someone else have a chance. And lastly...I really hope the OCC plans to break up the Modified 1982-Present class in to 2 different categories for next year. They really need a seperate one for 3rd and 4th gens.

 

I'm a pontiac kinda guy but I was there on the Saturday.
Had a good time..
Will be there next year too!

 

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

#1: 200 cars is a SMALL show

That being said- you're going to see the same cars again and again- and likely see many of the same winners year after year. This is not the states where you can find a car show practically on every corner- and if you get bored of your local events, skip over to the next state in a couple hours and join another show.

#2: While I'm not aware of what the exact judging scheme was (i.e. 1000 point system or what-have-you)- almost every car has room for improvement somewhere. If you're one and only goal is to go looking for a trophy and not notes or tips on how to make yours fit the judging criteria (i.e. someone's "official" opinion) you're A) probably going to lose and B) get caught up in the rich man's game of buying a car and storing it in a humidity-controlled environment all the time- only pulling it out to go to shows and putting 6 hours of cleaning/detailing into it beforehand.

#3: I don't know the 'classes' that were used- but if people are complaining that they were discriminated against because of things like body kits or the like- well- you basically asked for it- body kits are a "preference" issue- unlike resto categories which judge things such as accuracy, originality and overall condition (i.e. the correct factory paint marks on tie-rod ends).

#4: If anyone wants to seriously compete in anything like this, they either have to have alot of extra cash to throw at people (mechanics, body shops, etc.) to get their car pristine- or a heck of alot of time getting/keeping their ride in "shape" for such competitions. That being said- this is also part of the reason why you likely see the same winners year after year- and the focus of the event becomes less "trophy" oriented and more "afficionado" oriented.


My point- everyone should keep this in mind- short of there being some sort of outright judging scam- take your lumps and improve for the next time- or stop seeking trophies to start with.

 

Well said Eric.

I didnt go ther to win, it was a shock, but it made me real happy.

Only judging error I can tell with our class was with the undercarages. Mel beat me out for second place and his car did deserve it over mine but when we got our score sheets back he should not of beat me on the undercarage, but he did. My under carage is near mint, I got 2 minor spots of surface rust that I have since sanded off and repainted were as Mel's car looks like a pure sheet of surface rust caused by sitting in a feild last winter. No actual holes on ither car floor but if the judges would of crawled down and looked they would of seen all pure brown on his. When I was in the Judging lanes I did not see any Judge look under my car nor his (he was in line behind me). Now I beleive they took note of the exterior paint on our cars (mines covering stone chips thanx to an a$$ of an neighbore) were Mel's looks much better and guessed on the undercarrage just to get us through faster. Ither way he did deserve to beat me out but that other part did anoy me.

 

i know my iroc is far from being perfect. although the first place winner in my division clearly shouldnt have won over the supercharged ss (black) i agree with chris that they didnt even look at my interior nor my undercarriage, i have "sour grapes" because when i got to the judging lanes i heard the judges say "i thought this was the camaro nationals not the honda nationals" i really dont think that the razzi coupe should step down, he should stay around and be beaten "fairly" by someone with a better car (something that should have been done last year) i will have so many improvements next year to the iroc that will give me more points on the plus side...


it wasnt a total loss i did meet a bunch of people that i knew about online and made a few new friends along the way.. in no way ron am i knocking you its just that the whole way the show was run wasnt what or how it should have been...there isnt even a box for comments or anything to make the show better or to improve it..

iroc2nv

 

As I said above, judging is not an exact science and no matter where you go, somebody's going to have a difference of opinion.
You can measure speed and distance at the track, HP on a dyno, but when it comes to judging, results differ... and they have.
The point of this Camaro show was to bring owners and cars together to have a great time and a little healthy competition involving trophies. The purpose wasn't to argue over details.

Eric2ndGen made a good point: some people enter "show cars" and others (like many of us) enter driven cars.... how do you think that affects judging? Do you drive it or is it a piece of furniture in the garage between shows? Every car gets judged the same.


IROCKER:
1. with 200 cars being judged in a short space of time it is not practical to always provide specific notes on each. The judging sheet is designed to start with a perfect 200pt score and deductions are made accordingly until the final number is derived. Owners can make their own conclusions from there
2. some judges changed this year so you cannot expect to make an exact comparison to last year...
3. OCC isn't going to tell anyone not to compete because their car won too often.... come on?
4. Breakup of of Modified 1982 to present class.... good point.. will pass it along for next show.


Pacer

 

iroc2nv

Gerry:
Any comments or suggestion can be forwarded to the OCC on the website http://www.ontariocamaroclub.com/ContactUs/
Any directed to me get a mention at our monthly meetings, such as the break up of classes mentioned above.
While we always try to improve the show yearly... it will never be perfect. If you guys/gals don't speak up than we cannot address the issues.

As for the "honda" comment... well that's unfortunate and I apologize on behalf of the OCC. We do not promote derogatory comments on anyone's car.

Glad to hear you met a nice bunch of people... that's important too.

Ron

 

I hope nobody pays to enter their car in this show ! Because after reading this ( he ain't no chit'r ) i would have to wonder about this above mentioned situation



.....so do you have to pay to enter ?

 

Judges may change from year to year and that is only to be expected. And in addition to that, every judge has their own way of doing things. There is nothing wrong with that at all. My point was that the judges used were not familiar with our cars and did not appear to give themselves enough time to properly judge each car. Therefore it makes me come to the conclusion that their choices were more based on their personal opinion rather than an unbias professional opinion like it should be. Like I said, the guys that judged the 2002 show I noted paid much much more attention to detail and that's what should be expected...Not just a simple glance at the vehicle and sent it on it's way.

I guess your right, it would be hard for the club to tell someone they can't compete. It's just frustrated me when I several much nicer cars in that category that were much more deserving. This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think George's car is all that great...the paint hob was well done, but some of the mods (like the hood scoops) are very tacky and not well thought out. The interior is nothing special and the rims are outdated for their style. I understand why I only won 2nd place to him in the 2002, his car was much cleaner than mine and I can't deny that...But for 2001's show?!? How he won over Steve Vidal's KillerZ I guess only the judges will know....but I stand by my opinion that it was a poor decision. And the 2003 show...he quite simply the most deserving car. The yellow IROC, the Supercharged Z...those cars were much more deserving of first place. But the bottom line, when all is said and done, and that's the way the judges voted, so that's the way it is. What would be nice is if George would volunteer to step done...But that's his choice.

 

In regard to the Honda comment.

I would have expected nothing different if my car had iroc2nv's look. My girlfriend and I walked by it and her comment was 'what's THAT doing here'? She didn't think it was a camaro.

Anyways, iroc2nv, mod your car whichever way you want and what looks best for you - it's your money and only you needs to love it. Would I bring it to the OCC club show and expect good results - no way.

I'd definitely bring it cause the car is different and shows great imagination on your part. I dont think the OCC's executive are your target market though. They seem like a bunch of old school guys. Let them relish in their old world views.

Your car is a breath of fresh air they'd rather not swallow, or refuse to - all the more reason to bring it back next year!

Good luck. Hope I made some sort of sense. I'm battling a fever...

 

Steve,
The club is open to everyone. Guys on this board attend our meetings and go to the show yearly. One reason we don't (unfortunately) have as many younger members is because we are show 'focused' primarily.
Nothing wrong with Gerry's car. I like it but as you said, he brought a unique car that not everyone appreciated.
I was happy to see Gerry's car there personally as I was seeing that orange Moded convertible last year the girl named Teresa brought (picture still on the website i think).
IROCKER,
Judges follow the judging sheet and evaluate each car according to the criteria. Yes, opinion plays a part in it... but if they follow it closely it reduces the wide differences in scores. I cannot explain Gerry's score without seeing the sheets and cars but I would be willing to say that the scores were legitimate. It's easy to put forth complaints now that the show is over. Since Gerry is planning to return next year, we can all make a mental note and see how he perfoms next year.
RE: Steve Vidal's car... super car which I would have thought was a first place winner..... but wasn't?

Ron

 

dont mind me..just a thought..why would a judge spend more time on a car that already failed all their criterias(aka interests).they cant spend 5 minutes each on 200 cars..lol

again just a thought...

Judging would only be as good as the people that voted them to judge..

Daz