i started a post awhile back and a lot oif ppl said that i should go with anything but tpi if i want my rpms to go past 5500. so if i dont go with tpi what other fuel injection is out there that is california smog legal?

 

search..............you might find a superram.

 

stealth ram (holly)

 

The stealth ram is NOT c.a.r.b. legal.

I don;t know anything about single-plane fuel injection kits. Superram is Smog legal and Stock style TPI is. You can make a stock style TPI that outperforms stock by a longshot. Superram is even better.

 

arnt superrams rare and expensive? and a gm product?

 

Superram is made by Accel and you can find them used from time to time on Ebay or new through Summit or Jegs.

You must be thinking of the old T-ram setup from SLP that came on the firehawks.

 

so the superrams made by accel are california smog legal?

 

i just went to jegs and they say not emmissions legal

 

The DFI is not, but you will not need thier entire system. You just need the Plenum and Runners, and if you want, the lower manifold. It is emissions legal if you read at lingenfelter.com or mrgasket.com and go to accel. They tell you why it is, and why the DFI isn't. If they still have that written on there.

 

well its been awhile since ive looked at his post...so basically i can put nothing on my car that is street legal except a carb and tpi. there is no complete setup that i can buy that is california legal.

 

It is all smog legal.Forget the superram,to expensive in my opinion.You can get low 12s on a good long tube setup with a 350.Dont kill yourself over this decision.Ive owned all the intakes out there,miniram,superram,and you know what Im going to run on my next motor?Long tube design.Miniram is overpriced with its required fuel rails,and it isnt smog legal.Superram is overpriced and a pain in the *** to install,not to mention the casting quality of the system is crappy,warped covers.Long tube design is simple,looks good,easy to install and is smog legal.You will make an easy 450lbft with a longtube setup and a 350 and good smog heads.My friend made 360hp and 450lbft on a 355 with stock bottom end manley pistons,edelbrock longtube setup and manifold,afr 190 heads.Make your power where you are going to use it most,dont worry about 6000+ rpms,your car very rarly will see that.Out of all the manifolds here on users cars on the board,dollar for dollars the long tubes are the fastest.This is compared to minirams and superams on equal displacements.The preconcived notion on this board is to set the car up for overkill and Build the car for the future mods.Expensive way to build a car.If anyone knew how fast they could go with stock or aftermarket parts resembling the stock system,they would be better off.

 

Im not sure I agree with that. Not building your car around future mods is a waste of money. For example, many people buy subframe connectors, you dont necessarily need them when your stock, but in the future you might. It ends up costing you more when you buy a part only to realize later that youve made it obselete because it cant flow enough or it wont bolt up to something. I just makes sense to decide how much power you want to make and plan future mods accordingly. About not using power in the upper rev range, unless youre short shifting or lifting your foot early, that extra power shouldnt be hard to use, especially at the track. The only disadvantage to high revs is stoplight racing. In my opinion, low end power/torque is harder to use. You get into the throttle and all that happens is your tires go up in smoke and your 60ft times suffer. Youre entitled to your opinion, but the LTR setup isnt always the best way to go. (I realize you didnt say that, just making a statement)

 

wow...good information...i still say damn the california smog laws. Let me get this right and see if i know what your talking about. I need a throttlebody and an intake off of a tpi set up. i buy the fuel rails, injectors, and long tubes from accel off of their super ram. they will bolt up to the tpi. vawala smog legal setup. What about the wire harness, how many lbs. do i need on the injectors, and what else do i need?

 

Who makes a good set of longtubes? I am confused because I've only heard of the siamesed and large tube runners. If only some company out there would make an LS1 style intake for out cars, that swirls design is one of the best out there for an intake, shortin appearance, but that swirling charges the air better than the runners on TPI units. Maybe someone can do a splice job on it

 

The Super Ram doesnt use long tubes, and they will not bolt up to a stock-style TPI setup. The runners are shorter to accomodate the wider Super Ram plenum. Perhaps you were confusing Super Ram with Street Ram. (Accels stock-style long runners) Stock injectors will work fine, but if you do go with aftermarket, Id say dont go any larger than 24 lb-hr.

 

ok i kinda see what you guys are saying. can one of youi gimme a list of the parts i need so i dont restict the intake to any engine i put in my car.

 

get
TPIS large tube runners
TPIS big mouth base
TPIS ported plenum
TPIS 58mm trottle body
i've seen cars pull 460hp with this combo at 6200. i dunno how much higher yopu wanna go but thatz what ive seen been done.
hers a pic of super ram

 

im sorry if im annoyong you people, but what do i need beside the dtuff from tpis?

 

if you're not originally running tpi - you're going to need the computer/wiring harness off of a donor tpi car. Along with whatever sensors are missing.

 

if your getting the wiring harness and ecm out of a donor car, you really should get a new chip for it. because most likly the donor car is stock and has the stock ecm.

 

I thought I'd chime in here since I've gone through these intake dilemmas myself. The first thing would insist you do is to decide what you're building the car to do. Everyone seems to get caught up in the fact that the long tube set-up is restrictive. Everyone always mentions that it was designed to feed a 305, and that it's no good. Even a stock LTR can make decent HP. A large LTR or a siamesed version is even better. Can they match the potential of a miniram or HSR? No, but who says everyone wants that kind of power?

You can find used LTR for around $300 if you're patient. To go and spend between $2000 and $3000 thousand on something else is ridiculous unless you KNOW that you'll need it to reach your performance goals.

 

let me jump on this bang wagon here too. I have been debating what intakes setup to go with for a while now. Im trying to get the most hp and torque for the lowest amount of money spent. I have other priorites so I gotta go this on budget. I am thinking of bolting on the HSR. How well does it perform from idle to 5000rpms on the street. Would I get more from a vortec head/intake combo with slp runners or just use the HSR with my mods in sig.

 

I'd say start with a good set of heads that flow. The L98's are not the cream of the crop by any standards. Get the vortec base and some heads and you'll be close within the realm of the LS1. :hail:

 

so no matter what i do i have to basically go with a tpi setup, slightly modified. if i were to buy a miniram could i make it california smog legal?

 

by the way jackel...as far as hp he might get close ot the ls1 with that setup, but people fail to see one of the strong points of the ls1...it is aluminum. That means its a couple hundred pounds lighter than anyone of our engines.

 

Bottled and demon,I still recommend the Long tube runner design,heres why:There are many proven low 12 sec on motor combos with this intake design.It all fits with the stock stuff meaning you wont have to buy fuel lines and modify the accelerator cable like you do with the HSR.If you are on a budget,the vortec Tpi base and cast iron vortec heads would be a good combo.My combo Im thinking about is with the longtubes(any manufacturer) Accel base,And Im thinking either Sportsman 2 heads($859 assembled a pair)and the lingenfelter 216 or 219 cam.Longtubes can be found very cheap on ebay,unlike superrams which almost go for at new prices.using your stock bottom end,low 12s are going to be attainable.350+hp and 450+lbft of torque will be there all in the usable range.Ive seen personally 2 combos built simaler to these making awesome power on mainly stock bottom end parts.

 

IROCZ1989, thanks for that info. I never really thought about those sportman 2 heads. Where can I get more info on them? how well do they flow out of the box?

demonchild, yes the LS1 engine is all aluminum which makes it weigh less then our engines but as far as hp goes, i dont think it is a big differnence. take some weight off your car in various areas and now your even

 

Bottled read about them here on their web site:


http://www.worldcastings.com

Nice heads for the price,$819 in summit assembled per pair.

 

yea thse guys are correct about the TPI set up. It is great for al sorts of motors. TPIS did a couple of tests, i have the book. A 415C c.i. with a completely stock TPI making 480 ft/lb and 355 hp @ 4250 . Thats a motor with *****, that will get these heavy cars moving. They also did a 383 afr heads and lrg base and runners it make 500 ft. lbs. and 419 hp. Well there you have it , I ouldnt use a different set up unless I were to get a big block.

Another thing is about blocks, you can get an aluminum block, older style to use our TPI set and not spend what it would cost for a LS1.

 

Come on. 355 hp from a 415 cid engine? Think of the power an engine of that potential would make with a well-flowing intake! 355 hp really isnt much by todays standards, that barely matches a stock 346 cid LS1, and doesnt surpass a new Mach 1 by much. You guys have to realize that if you want to race competitivly anywhere other than from a stoplight (or autocross), TPI wont cut it (NA). TPI is designed to make power in a certain (low) RPM range, and not outside of it. Putting bigger runners on it doesnt detract from the fact that it was designed to make 245-250hp/350 lb-ft, but if you are content with a highly modified engine making 350hp, by all means keep your TPI. If you are interested in real (winning races) power, get something that flows.

 

But the LS1 doenst make 500 ft. lbs of torque now does it ...The point was that the TPI is a good intake system and can be used for a 383 combo or larger and still make good power, but most of all make torque. Which is exactly what our cars like.
The 415ci with a tpi was stock and so was the tpi. The 383 had oversized intake runners and plenum ported which made great power for a tpi without having to spend another thousand on a fuel injetion system. what are you running ? how much have you spent ? and what do you know for any facts? I have provided facts not just my knowledge or opinion. what have you contributed besides your opinion ?

 

Your point is well taken, but what I was saying has little to do with opinion, most of what I said is based solely on fact. No, the LS1 does not have 500 lb-ft of torque, but what it does have is a broad, smooth torque band that pulls from idle to redline. 500 lb-ft is a peak torque figure, which looks good on paper. What really matters, though, is how much torque the engine makes throughout the rpm range. The LS1 uses an intake which allows it to build power through the entire range rather than a large torque figure in a narrow powerband like a TPI. Volumetric efficiency is what makes power, and it simply makes sense to try to be more efficient more of the time, not just at ~3500 rpm. TPI is an outdated intake, GM tried it for several years, then went to a short-runner setup, and later a medium-length system. (LS1) They didnt switch to a short-runner setup because the LTR setup was better. To answer your question, I am currently running a TPI setup with headers, exhaust, CAI, full ignition, and all the free mods. I have zero traction, and consequently sh*tty ETs. My Stealth Ram is on order, however, and Im anticipating a 0.3 or 0.4 drop in my times when I install it.

 

Torque is what makes the car get up and go, hp keeps it going. a tpi can pass 5000 rpm and sometimes higher for a tpi ported and what not. but if you use the useful range of a tpi you car have quick et's and still have bad to the bone accelleration in any gear, not just in first. I think most people here are building cars with tpi's because they like them and dont want to spend the extra money on another intake and would rather have a larger motor and mod their tpi.
I personally own a 1le which has a very close ratio t-5 tranny. I dont ever hear anyone talk about that part of a 1le though, very interesting. Anyway, with my close ratio gears and only runners and ported plenum, 1 5/8 headers and afpr on a 305ci stock otherwise, I can run a 13.939 and 14.00 all day, but traction is a problem. When i spend the money on a trac-link it will probally get great traction, I will be in the mid 13's with a stock 305 lightly moded tpi with a stock base.
So, because I have a 5-speed I guess I think alot different about were you what the power to be, you want to keep it in the rpm range were you get the most torque on entering the gear and leave it with the most hp. Which other intake systems cant do, they put the rpm range between torq and hp too far apart.
Now if you are strickly drag racing and have no intention on ever driving on the street then you go for high rpm motors and most people dont have that kind of money to build a high rpm motor let alone a high rpm intake system, other than mod the tpi, just to drive at the track once a week.

 

speaking of ls1, what kind of intake is that. can i put an ls1 intake on to my car?

 

The LS1 uses a medium-length runner, composite manifold that will not bolt on a Gen. 1 engine. The LS1 has coil-on-plug and therefore no distributor, not to mention a head with a different port design and different emissions equipment. John8169, congrats on a well-running 5.0, its impressive to get the small-bore to run those times with so few mods. I am confused about how you see the aftermarket TPI setups as inexpensive, though. My Stealth Ram was $270 and the rails were $174, that is a very good deal compared to $395-$475 for AS&M runners (supposedly the best LTRs) and over $400 for the base. I am in no way trying to discourage you from your opinion, but you guys have to realize TPI isnt ***'s gift to the automotive world. Im not saying that a TPI engine wont achieve 5000rpm, what I am saying is that it will make hardly any power there. The system is designed to peak at around 3500rpm. The main reason people modify their TPIs is to overcome the the systems 4500rpm 'brick wall', by doing this, youre defeating the concept of TPI. There is no logic in trying to make something flow where is wasnt designed to. Like I stated previously, if you want to make power over 4500-5000rpm, get something that flows, but if you are content with just low rpm, peaky power, by all means keep the TPI. Im NOT trying to start a flame war, just stating the facts.

 

interesting on the ls1 intake. if i were to bolt on something like the stealth ram, how hard is it to pass california smog emmission laws? Will the smog tech know the difference between the tpi and the stealth ram or mini ram. What specific emmission equipment are the techs looking for on the induction?

 

My experience with racing has never been a lack of torque, but a lack of horsepower! I can get out of the hole incredibly fast, and take on a lot of cars, put some good distance between them and myself, but the top end rush is where I fall behind. I only pull to 4000 and they start gaining, by about 4600 there is no more pull! our engines make a great amount of torque down low, but there is a certain point where you need that high end to keep your lead. Look at the LS1s! they are high end happy, we make more torque, weigh the same if not a little lighter, their autos have essentially the exact same tranny as us, but they've got the 320 HP top end which is why they can run low 13s while our cars (w/L98s) are about mid 14s. anything that can free up the top end (to 5700 rpm) would do wonders with any of our engines. I don't know about the TPI setup being able to do that. that 415 ci making the gobs of torque but minimal HP seems like a good truck engine, but a rather mediocre street engine. Besides with a nice engine like a 415, maybe it'd only make 440 ft. lbs of torque with an LT1 or Mini-Ram style intake, if brings top end to 420 HP, it'd be a great trade off, the car would be significantly faster.

 

read again, a couple posts up, you can get 419hp and almost 500ft.lbs out of a 383 with a moded tpi.
the 415ci had a STOCK tpi. they make hp, plus if you make the shift points correct you have more tq and more hp.
You dont have to redline an engine to win races, race the engine within its best rpm range, which then doesnt matter after 5000 rpm which a moded tpi will certainly do .
flat hp + flat torque all the way across the rpm range.
not peaks here and there.
So why did you buy a tpi if you dont want to use it?????

 

I like to race the engine to where it's HP peaks and then shift, for the L98 that's about 5000 RPM, for crate motors it's usually much higher. The costs of modding a TPI unit are more than a stealth ram or modified LT1 intake, or even a used Superram in some cases (ebay ) are about the same and more often less. I got my IROC with a 350 cause I already owned a 305 and wanted 14 second capability bone stock, TPI came with it from the factory, it is a bit modified, the plenum has been ported, but if a modded LT1 intake ($400) from lt1intake.com or a stealth ram ($500) is gonna cost less than getting large tube runners ($400) and a baseplate ($300), and offers more potential all around, I'd rather get that, especially since I plan on getting an engine that needs breathing all the way up to 6000 RPM. Rather irrelevant, but those ram-port style intakes also free up a few inches of space in that area, making it easier to work on or clean. Don't get me wrong, a modified TPI for an engine peaking at about 5000 would be great, but say it was peaking at 5800, it'd be choked out, and the HP rating wouldn't be the same.

 

We're also over-looking where in the RPM range that the power translation system (tranny, rear-end what-not) gets to be a deciding factor as to weather or not your power is just being dissapated to heat. In most auto-trannies, the parasitic loss above 5-grand gets pretty high.

 

so a manuel transmission will lose less power than an automatic will? is that due to the torque converter?

 

partly torque convertor, mass of the rotating assembly, and the different systems that the tranny uses to shift.

 

interesting...if i build up my engine...which im planning to do...how can i minimize the loss due to the auto trans. i want to keep my car auto because my mom loves to drive it, but i also want good ET's on thursday night at the strip.

 

regardless, if you're making a very high amount of HP up top, you will net a whole lot of HP at the rear wheels up top. It can't be too much though, my LS1 friends routinely run faster with their autos than the ones with manuals. There are things that can help to keep drivetrain losses reduced. I am pretty sure that most people here who race are shifting above 5000 rpm, manual or auto, for the best E/Ts

 

The best ways to bring down the parasitic loss is with cooling and stiffning up the way the car shifts, primarily with a good shift kit from the likes of Trans-go. They also sell tranny coolers, and other things to help cool it.

 

Im confused, all the way across the rpm range? The L98 is peaky. That peak is generally (you guessed it) at around 3500-4500rpm, then it drops off steadily from there.

 

if you look at some of the 383 stroker engines, the horsepower curve appears linear. That makes better ET's because you have horespower from the low end to the high end without having to hit the "powerband"

 

I realize that a linear torque curve makes for better ETs, but TPI doesnt make for a linear torque curve. You may find broad torque bands on 383s, just not 383s with the LTR setup.

 

so go with carb...but all dragsters run fuel injection for a reason.