Sorry if this has already been discussed, but...
I just got done reading the latest magazine and they have a 305 5 speed Formula with full exhaust and intake running a 14.2. Does this seem right? The same guys that can barely break 11's with a fully built 396???? I don't know, it just seems really fast.

I like both of these project cars, but I am actually a little dissapointed in the times for the 396. My friend's 99 SS Camaro is running 12.1X with all bolt ons, full exhaust, gears, and an agressive stall (he ran 10.9 on the bottle). I would hate to build a motor for my car and have his bolt on car keep up with me. It has to be possible to hit 10's with my car if I start with a 396 or something, right??? Maybe not? This is what I need to know. I never care who beats me but if I can be faster AND be more reliable, should I just start saving for an LS1 Formula or something??? I love my car even though it sits in my backyard needing a gear install and paint, and it would be hard to get rid of it, but am I destined to be slow? Who here can beat that time I posted for my buddies car without nitrous? And those of you that can beat him are you driving your car on the street much? Is your car reliable???

I am not trying to bring anyone down or start a flame war, I am just trying to decide what to do about my car in the future and I would like to get some more opinions before I make any rash decisions. I have driven a few LT1's, and a bunch of LS1's and I still like my car better than any of them.

Thanks for any ideas, comments, or different views...

Jonathan

 

Very doable in a 305 5 speed. Stock 3.42 or 3.73 posi thats no problem.

 

My brother's 89 Formula 5 speed, 3.45 gears with Exhaust, K & N, MSD, on drag radials ran 15.0 @ right over 90 mph. His car seemed pretty fast to me, but I guess there was something wrong with it or something...
I wonder what the fastest bolt-on 305 5 speed car is on this board? 13's are not far away for their project car. I know there are a bunch of 350 TPI guys (including myself) that have yet to do that.
Any other comments?

 

Sorry if I sound like an ***, but good luck getting to run 11.teens and keep up with an LS1 with a 305, or any thirdgen for that matter and still keep it streetable. Does your buddy have heads or cam?

 

Nope my buddy's internal is bone stock. It is a true bolt on car. And his is not the fastest around...

 

Not to sound like an a$$, but good luck getting a thirdgen with a 305 or 350 for that matter to keep up with an LS1. It's so easy to get those cars into the 11's where it takes many many $$$ to get the thirdgen into the 12's. It can be done, but it most likely wont be very streetable.

 

I have to disagree. A 355 with AFRs, a hotcam, and a miniram/superram/or LT1 intake would hit high 11's. Add the bottle and you're in the 10's. This would still be VERY streetable and run right with a LS1. I know LS1's are fast (I have friends with 10second ones), but don't act like we can't give them competition. You buy a $2500 350 car and add those mods, paint and wheels and you'll be cheaper than a used LS1 car to top it off Just my $.02!


*DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR THIRDGEN!!!!

 

i plan (hopefully) seeing 11's on engine alone and 10's with the bottle with my set up.. maybe ill remember to lower my et streets psi this time

 

AZIROC- Nice ride and good luck!!!!!!!!!!

 

Dude I'm gonna have to back up Nasty_Bird_'90 on this one. It's going to take more than that to get a thirdgen into the 11's. My proof is Traxion's car. He has a TPIS MiniRam, Stall, Cam, Heads, Exhaust, Suspension work and Prom Tuning and is still in the 12's albeit low.

Our cars are great and easy to make faster but to make them much faster takes alot of work and $$$. Going power added get's you there easier but a power adder alone will cost you no less then 3K.

 

Aren't those Traxion's old times though? Doesn't he have a bigger stall and stuff now?? He SHOULD be in the 11s. Mike Richards is it? Doesn't he have a car in the high 11s? I know he had a 350 or zz4 shortblock with AFRs, LTR, stall, susp, tuning and he was running like 11.90's. Now he has a HSR I believe and is faster than that. Its not as hard as you guys think. Its all about part matching.... As soon as I get my heads and LT1 intake on with stickies and tuning I'm looking at gaining almost 2 seconds and hitting high 11s. Totally possible and still gonna get 25mpg with my T56. Later

 

GTA91:

A friend of mine has the same car as you describe (basically). 355, AFR, headers, SuperRam, ZZ9 cam, gears, 3,000 stall TC, '89 IROCZ, no MAF, Accel SD system, etc... The car pulls 310RWHP max, and runs 12.3x at Norwalk. Its a very impressive car. I have a similar car, but cant put down his kind of numbers.

Also, I have a '99 LS1 SS with many mods, it pulls 400RWHP and with only a 2.1 60' time, I run 12.3sec. (I cant drive worth crap.)
My car should run in the 11s, no problem. The LS1 engines are far superior to the L98s. Take my word for it.

One big difference between the motors is that the LS1 will pull well above 6,000RPM without running out of air,,, my L98 runs out of air at 5,500RPM.

So, what am I going to do with my L98? Biuld a 396 like they did in GMHTP.

 

I believe some people might not being building their engines right. I admit, it's much easier to make a LS1 run 11's than a first gen small block. But thats far from saying it can't happen.

Three cars locally that I know.
11.60 in a 3500lb car with an engine that runs 8:1 compression. It's setup for a blower but the blower belt broke, he ran that. Idles at 900 RPM and drives around all the time
11.45 in a 90 vert camaro. 10.25 on nitrous. Idles pretty good, extremly loud, but not too bad. Drove alot around town before someone ran into the back of him.
11.20 in a older nova that weights close over 3400 with driver low 10s on nitrous. With a pretty budget style buildup. Somewhat streetable probably the least of them.


It's very possible to make an first gen block run mid to low 11s with just the right setup. Using the Stock tpi system is out of the question, but carbed or high flowing intake it's easily possible. Plenty of LT1 continue to do it as well.

There isn't a doubt that the ls1 has an advantage, look at the amount of air their heads flow compared to most standard 23 degree small block heads. But it's very easy to make a firstgen small block run with them with the right components. And when it comes time to go really fast 8 and 9's, the standard small block holds a huge advantage.

 

Also on the orginal question. I don't consider the 396 really impressive at all. Something is not right. The time is pretty good, 11.96 or whatever it was. But the trap speed is horrible for that engine. Johnny claims it's because it's built for even the strictest emissions, and maybe it is. But it's not impressive in terms of a built small block car.


I would stay clear of 305s however. Atleast start with 350+ cubes.

 

I didn't say it can't be done, nor did I say it hasn't been done. Just stating that it takes a little more work to get a thirdgen to run 11 anything! I love thirdgens, don't get me wrong, but I work on LS1's everyday and know what they're capable of. My shop is home to one of the fastest 346 ci. LS1's in the country and it's only got heads/cam, TH400 w/ 4200 stall, and a 12 bolt rear with 3.73's. Do the same to a thirdgen and say hello to the mid to high 12's.

Don't take it the wrong way, no flame intended.

 

I have to agree with the orginal post about the 305 running 14.2. I orginally had a 305/T-5 in my 88 with a mild cam, air foil, under drive pully, flow master with 3.54 gears and all I could turn was 14.9's. So if that car is really a 305 with nothing done to it I'd have to say they are pulling the wools over our eyes cuz I don't see 14.2's with the original setup. If you think about it the 350's in the 3rd gen were only turning high 14's from the factory.

 

Not looking at it as a flame. There isn't a doubt that the ls1 came out better stock, but a smallblock has so much bigger aftermarket. No one should have troubles building a smallblock into the 10s...11s... or 12s. Thirdgen or not.

With a correctly built small block, it should run with the ls1.

Although alot of money will be poured into the heads, and it might not be quite as streetable as the ls1. It can be done without a doubt. Like I said, those three cars I listed were driven around town. And there are plenty of small blocks without being big cube small blocks in the 10s N/A as well. Although most of those are usually ran on strip only.

I wasn't looking at it as a flame, the LS1 is a great engine. Although I doubt I know half of what you do about the LS1s, I do know what I've seen cars run.

 

Not really. The later models many times ran low 14s at 96-98mph trap speeds. Which is good enough for high 13 second runs and the usual low 14 second runs in which many did.

 

I'm not trying to take anything away from the LS1. What shop do you work for? Here in the St.Louis, MO area are some of the fastest LS1's I've seen. In person or over the internet.... Like I said I know quite a few guys with 10sec bolt on cars. I know they are badass, but SBC's can run and do it rather easily. I still have a lot of trouble believing that a 355 or 383 w/ heads/cam and EFI intake wouldn't run 11's pretty easily. If not then its a ****ty tune, bad driver, or improper parts matching. And its not that expensive either. Look at what those guys have in their LS1 cars. I know first hand how much those cars cost and mods cost.


*All in all, I'm giving the LS1 a little advatage but not really much of one and DEFINATELY nothing that a SBC can't overcome with about the same streetability

 

I had a 305 tpi in my 89 350 (on a bet) cold air zz2 cam slp pully runners headers and cat back stock trans w/ shift kit 3.42 gear and it ran 1.90 60ft 13.89 at 101.9mph on street tires no tuning my current combo runs in the 11. sec range on street tires stock ported meter no less and I drive it all summer long w full exhaust and 20 mpg+ if I go easy on it so their 396 seems slow to me

 

I had a 305 tpi in my 89 350 (on a bet) cold air zz2 cam slp pully runners headers and cat back stock trans w/ shift kit 3.42 gear and it ran 1.90 60ft 13.89 at 101.9mph on street tires no tuning

 

Word. Those are my old times. I ran 12.2s with a 2800 stall, 218/224 cam, 1-5/8" headers, 52mm TB, Stock AFR190s, stock lifters, etc. I now have 3600 stall, 230/245 cam, Hooker 1-3/4" longtubes, 58mm TB, Ported AFR190s, 'R' Lifters and the HydraRev. This car better hit 11's Oh yea - and this is all on the stock GM bottom end (motor has never been pulled) and a tranny that has never been rebuilt.

Tim

 

Hell yeah Tim. I thought that was your old setup. If you don't hit 11.50's this time I'm quitting on my car. Can't wait to see what you do. And BTW I'm running a stock bottom end, stock rearend and stock T56 and hope to add AFR's and a LT1 intake to my car and hit 11's. I have the hotcam too Later

 

Yeah with that new set up you should def be in the 11's on all motor. I'm waiting anxiously to see what that combo can do.

My point was that with all the work you had done at the point of your old times was way more than what GTA91 said it would take to get into the 11's. With a well matched combo of parts and some good tuning a sbc can get into the 11's. It isn't like climbing Mt Everest but it isn't just throwing some parts on and having guaranteed 11's either.

On the LS1 arguement I agree with GTA91. The advantage than LS1's have is a great induction/ecm unit and great heads. This can be equaled by a well tuned efi sbc.

 

I originally said pretty much exactly what Traxion was running before. I may have not mentioned a stall and exhaust but that would definately have to be included. Its totally possible.

 

I strongly disagree with that comment. I read an article about a carburated 305 pumping out 325 HP and 330 lb-ft, all motor. They put in a camshaft, full perfomance exhaust, Vortec heads, intake manifold, and ignition. The motor was out of the car, but even in the car, and with better gears, this thing could scream, and easily keep up with a mildy modded LT1 or stock LS1. Dont give up on the 305, its a good motor, you just have to know how to use it.

 

I agree. I'm dying to build my old 305 into a 335 stroker with shaved vortec heads (58cc) a hotcam and a LT1 intake. I think it would haul some major *** for a 305 or 335!

 

No offense, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of installing a camshaft, heads, intake, exhaust, and ignition on my engine, I want to be doing *better* than the competition, not just running neck and neck with their stock power levels. And actually, it's not even doing that because the 305 you are talking about makes 325 flywheel horsepower, where as the average 2001-2002 LS1 car makes around 315 to the rear wheels.