Hi. I have a couple of times tried to get some info about this "new" F.I.R.S.T Tpi ltr style manifold. but I dont semm to get noticed..so here I try again

It is a copy of the enhanced tpi manifold that GM made for the GTA Firefox. (so I have been told) it has 1.75 diameter runners, same diameter as the Firefox/Firehawk headers. it comes with a 76 mm monoblade throttle body. and it costs 995 dollars. it seems like a good deal if one wants the best of tpi ltr style manifold. thinking that runners alone for a normal tpi is up to 400 a bigger throttel body is easily 300 and a baseplate is 400 plus you have to port the plenum....this is 995 for all..is it too good to be true ?

se link

http://www.firstinjections.com

 

no offence, but if you've tried to get info about that setup on this board, you would know that this topic has been posted already before.

Besides, for that price, you could set yourself up with a better intake and still have money left over. My HSR setup (complete with AFPR) cost me about $800+ CDN after a 14.5% tax.

 

I have read the previus threads about the first..but those are only about ther old one..and dont give any real info..no user exp ect...

I have looked at the holley..but my car is a street car I never run the mile..so for my use it looses to much down low..if the first manifold can expand my powerband 1200 rpm upwards..it is what I need....

 

I don't know what the specs of your cam is, but I'm running a zz4 cam with a set of holley heads, and the amount of torque that I've lost down low is almost negligable. I'm also still running the stock 3.27 gears. You already have aftermarket heads/cam...

So far, the only people who've complained about the loss of torque are the ones who, amazingly enough, have never had a stealthram installed in their 3rd gen. Honestly, can you tell me how much torque you're gonna lose down low? Essams posted his dyno sheets with an HSR on a stock 350, and they looked pretty good; and he still has some more tuning to do.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where you're coming from because your car is mainly gonna be for the street. But for the price of that first injections manifold, you could get the HSR (w/AFPR) and a nice set of headers/ignition/exhaust to go with it.

Besides, after bolting on the HSR and realizing how much easier and "cleaner" it is over a tune port, you'll never turn back. Changing intake manifold gaskets, and accessing bolts are a breeze.

Trust me on this one.

 

It looks like it can move some air and support some larger motors. I especially like the option to mount the TB on the side!?!

If you want to increase your RPM range by 1200 revs there are easier ways to get it done. I think keeping with the TPI trend is nice idea, but for the money, I have to agree that the HSR is the way to go.

Have you considered porting your stock base and getting just larger runners. Your stock TB should be fine. Just some thoughts.

 

You'll have to rig a TPS and a IAC motor on the F.I.R.S.T. unit to work with the factory electronics - or rig some sort of adaptor to use the factory GM style T/B - depending on your skill level, either or may or may not be a big deal. The company may have all that information available,,,,, as to what you have to do or buy to get it to work. I'd call or e-mail them for specifics before I bought it though.

It's a nice unit (and I wouldn't mind having one myself), giving similar top end power to the SuperRam and more low end torque. However, if you don't want the hassle,, hof, (sorry I couldn't resist),,, you can pick up a good used SuperRam system for less and get about the same performance.

HTH

 

to age : Thanks for your info! my cam is the crane 2032 214/220 @50. I already have an afpr. I have read all the threads reg the holley ..and from what I can gather it looses almost 40 hp down low in comparison to a ltr tpi system. Im in no doubt that the holley is the way to go for the mile, but for stoplight to stoplight performance I think it looses too much. True I havent had one on my car. I tried another bird with one installed.and it was clearly slower down low than mine, but ofcourse it could have been out of tune. Plus the guy who had installed it said fabricating fuellines and making it fit under the hood was a pain...but after instalation it is easy to work with.

to BadSS:

The TPS for the FIRST for it to fit gm electronics is 30 dollars.

I dont know about the IAC..good point thanks..I will investigate it.

And I forgive you


to : 92 zzz28

Have thought about just upgrading to typical ltr...but for the runners alone it is almost half of the firsts price..plus the first have larger runners than any of the other ltr setups I have seen

I welcome your input !

 

yawn.... Looks like yet another TPI setup, only this had a single blade throttle body to set itself apart from all the others. No dyno figures??? ....yawn

 

to gmtech :

Several things sets this apart from the rest as far as I can see.

1. the monoblade throttelbody (as you said) in the same diameter as the maf and inlet tube..this technical seems like a better solution, less turbulence and airspeed variations through the intake. and all modern throttel bodys are monoblade.

2. the runners are 1,75 inch in diameter..bigger than any other aftermarked large tube runners.

3. it has its own plenum, without the restrictions of the oem plenum.

4. it has its own baseplate with bigger portdimensions than other plenums, bigger than the holley stealthram that have problems taking anything larger than a 1205 gasket (or so I have been told). the baseplate design seems to be better than other tpi bases.. the base channels are the same shape as the runners, and seem to bend more gently than other designs.

5. it comes with fuelrail setup, and it uses the factory gm iac motor..all you need to buy is a 30 dollar tps.


maby im missing something here..but it really seems like a killer deal..

please teach me if im missing something here...I dont want to buy something that only sounds good on paper and in theory

the company says it will runn strong upto 6500 rpm on a 350..

 

Hof:

I have never seen or heard of it before you posted the link. While doing searches on TPI intakes, I don't recall ever coming across it.
I say more power to ya, get the FIRST kit if it was you think will suit you best. Install it and post your finding, hopefully with some track and dyno numbers. Before and after, of course!

For me, I know the HSR will serve me well. I agree that the idea of it is cool. Those runners have the same ID as my headers!!

Have fun and good luck...

 

i agree it looks like a helluva deal...

but without real world experiance with anyone on this board..its hard to lay out that kinda cash...

so go ahead and get it and let us know how it goes

 

Well, the way I see it, its still just a TPI. First off, a little porting and you can make your stock plenum outflow any other TPI component. So for next to nothing, you can make a "hi-po" plenum. Then come the runners. Sure, you can open them up .1", .2" whatever, they are still LONG TUBE RUNNERS, and you are still subject to the limitations of an LTR setup. Not to mention, bigger isn't always better. Velocity plays a large factor in power output, and larger tubes will reduce velocity, and if further down the line can't flow it, you can get turbulence as well.

If you were converting to TPI, it may be a good thing, since you said it came with fuel rails and such, but for me, a person with two Trans Ams, both which already have TPI, I think its a waste. LIke I said, I can port out the plenum for next to nothing and get more out of it then I would ever need. Then spend <$700 for a base and runner set. I don't need new sensors, I don't need fuel rails, etc...

Plus, there are no figures, tests, etc... to backup the "supposed" features of the setup. I, as a consumer, am not convinced or impressed. But this is just my 2_˘

 

to GmTECH :

well I know all this is only speculations..but here are my thoughts.

You say it is still "just a tpi" TPI have advantages that no other manyfold style have, the resonant pressurewave, the speudo forcefeeding in the "tuned rpm range", the problem with original oem tpi was that it is only the first bounce (resonance) that is usable because when the next one ocours I belive around 5200 rpm the runners are outflown. GM redesigned the tpi style intake for the GTA Firefox in 88 to be big enough to take advantage of that second bounce. (actually I think it is 2 and 4 bounce) that should give the longtube design the high rpm boost that it in the oem version so lacked.

the runners are 1.75" in diameter the same size as most highperformance headders for a 350..I have never heard of those having flow problems..neighter with velocity or top pressure. Ofcourse the larger runners vil decrease the velocity but the tuned port effect should more than make up for that in the low rpm range.

Last time I looked into an oem plenum..it was all but obstackle free even with heavy porting. agreed that you can make one flow more than enough for any sbc..but the quality of flow is another matter. Just look at the ls1 "plenum" Gm definitely thinks turbolence aka flow quality matters.

this guy have one of the original first manifolds

http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/NCtpi.html


here for 995 you get runners bigger than any others GM design, high flow plenum, throttelbody all gaskets and everything...it definitely seems to bee worth the extra 300 dollars....PLUS and this I havent seen before..If one dont like the setup you can return it.and get you money back!! (says on their site)

Please give me your thoughts

thanks

 

a 417 inch trapped at 111?

there are stock LS1's trapping at 107-109

anyway...its obvious he needs to tune his further...

for the torque i think id buy it..that is if i had the money lol...

 

Here are some dyno figures from the May 1991 Popular Hot Rodding article entitled EFI Shootout

The engine used was a 9:1 355 with AFR Heads and a mystery “AFR cam” – best guess on the intake duration would be in the 220 range (plus or minus a few). The ASM system is a fully ported GM base and ASM long tube runners. The "FIRST" unit was being sold by Electromotive in 1991 and the design has not changed (to my knowledge). I believe the MiniRam may have had a revision or two since 1991, but I wouldn't expect to see any significant gains.

RPM ---- ASM --- FIRST --- MR
2500 ---- 180 ----- 175 ----- 175
3000 ---- 238 ----- 237 ----- 222
3500 ---- 295 ----- 295 ----- 263
4000 ---- 325 ----- 350 ----- 300
4500 ---- 352 ----- 377 ----- 350
5000 ---- 350 ----- 388 ----- 375
5500 ---- 330 ----- 366 ----- 398

I’ve seen other pulls from back in this era and the FIRST unit ranked well regardless of the type engine used,,, and exhibited similar power curves to the SuperRam. At face value this appeared to be a very good showing for the “First” unit by putting 36 horses on the ASM system and only being 10 horses (at peak) shy of the Miniram. You all can do the math for the TQ figures,,, but the FIRST unit put right at 65 lb/ft on the MiniRam at 4000. That’s pretty impressive even if the cam used was a ringer for the First system – either by chance or choice.

 

Well, I'm certainly open to new things. I'd love to see some more comparisons.

 

damn that "first" kicked the MR's @ss all the way to 5 grand

and i bet the torque is mosterous

 

WOW thats amazing! It is that kinda info im dying to get my hands on! Anyone who know of such info please please share

If the FIRST can repeat these numbers on a few combos..it is definitely the winner in my book. I dont doubt that the miniram will always beat it in the highest rpm....but if the first can keep up untill 5000...and still do good at 5500 it is what I need..I newer rev past 5500 anyway..nor would I want to

I dont remember how you calculate torgue from hp and rpm...could I trick someone to do it ? :hail:

thanks

 

hasselhof: Do a search again on the FIRST manifold in the Aftermarket section. As I was reading this post, I seem to remember someone saying that the company MIGHT not be around anymore. I too am impressed with that dyno test.. so double check with the search engine.

 

to age :

The rights for the manifold have been bought and sold several times over the last 10 years. the new company @

http://www.firstinjections.com is very much alive..I have sent them several skeptic emails and they where all answered promptly and enthusiastic...infact I have runn out of critical questions to ask them.. if anyone have some lightcasting questions or answers..please let me know. Im tired of finding out the back side of things after I forked out the doe for them


thanks

 

I wouldn't put that much weight into that test. The comparison to the ASM set-up is a farce since it was using a stock base.

As for comparing the the minram, there the complete lack of tuning could be a big difference. Also, they may very well have use a big cam on purpose to make the miniram look bad as well. Over 220 intake duration on a mild TPI engine is a waste, you're still going to peak by/around 5k and make all your torque in the midrange without giving much up. The same cam with a miniram is just getting started at 5 and would be notticably down in the midrange. Notice how they didn't supply any 6k or higher power numbers. Probably because the MR blew the first out of the water once you got there. It is pretty obvious that the MR is on it's way up at 5500.

Don't forget, someone is usually paying for parts for a magazine test, and they usually have an agenda. I'm not saying the first set-up is necessarily junk, but i doubt it is really better than any other LTR set-up.

Now for the most important part. Not only is the first manifold still just another LTR set-up, but it's NOT EVEN EMMISIONS LEGAL. The main reason anyone sticks with any sort of a tuned runner intake besides looks is that it is also completely legal. Now while a lot of people don't have to worry about emmisions now, within the next couple of years you can be sure that they'll be coming to everyone. Damn shame to spend all that money on an intake that gets you nowhere when less money would have bought emmissions legal parts that made the same power.

 

to Ed :

The FIRST have EGR provison so I cant see why it wouldent be emissions legal, can you ?´

For the test I understand that the ASM setup had a completly portet base..and since they dont make their own..one must assume that an oem portet base is what is meant to be used with it.

The miniram numbers dosent look that off..sitting here looking at TPIS own figures...and im sure that they are not understated am I missing something ?

Im sure that the miniram would blow any other manifold out of the water above the 6000 rpm mark....but as I understand the standart gm electronic cut fuel at 5875rpm ...so whats the point ? unless we are talking all out racing and a completely modified car.

please educate me

 

The ASM test could have used an aftermarket base to make it a fair comparison. Thnen it would have been too identical to the first set-up though, no doubt not the picture they were trying to paint.

Unless the first set-up has an EO # it's not emmisions legal.

And what are you talking about 'standard gm cuft fuel', none of the TPI cars use the factory rev limiter in the ECM, and even if they did it's easy enough to change.

 

What Ed said, plus, I am willing to wager that my ported LTR (hacked up siamesed stock base, hogged SLP runners and stock plenum) setup is at least as "big" as that one making the FAST vastly overpriced if you know your way around a tool box and an air compressor.

All of the TPI .bins I have laid eyes on (at least 30 different ones) have the rev limiter set to 10,000 RPM......

 

I agree with Ed and Matt here...

Honestly, this intake setup isn't that impressive...if you are looking for an emissions legal setup, go with a used Super ram...otherwise buy a new Holley Stealth Ram...

I have owned both (although I never installed the SR after the HSR came out) and after comparing them to this setup, I wouldn't pay the $$$ for it...

If you want something similar, just get a modded TPI setup (aftermarket or siamesed stock base), decent runners and ported plenum...all of which can be had for a lot less money than this setup...

Although the SIDE-MOUNTED TB setup is pretty interesting...I would be bet no one uses it...kind of gimmicky

 

The side mounted TB isn't necessarily a gimmick. I'm sure it would come in handy if you were swapping into something with a tight engine bay like an old street rod without much front clearance, or really any kind of tight engine swap.

 

The economy issue :

A common LTR setup : aftermarked baseplate 425 (tpis or accel) runners 450 (tpis or accel) 52 or 58 mm throttel body 350 (holley,lingenfelter) Porting baseplate, plenum ect 90 (this if you do it your self and you value your own time I figure it would take atleast 6 hours to do it and I wouldent work for less than 15 dollars an hour. the thesis is that if i could make more money working on something else then it would be the better choice, simple cost benefit of out-sourcing)

that all comes to (425+450+350+90) = 1315 dollars

The First : 995 with everything it takes to install it!

The first being an integratet solution with all matched together and with bigger dimensions than anyother aftermarked peice I Have seen definitely doesent go against it
plus all the portet oem plenums I have seen all still had roughness and castings in the flow path, the first dosent.


The emissions thing:
What is the legal difference between a normal LTR setup and the FIRST ? the first retains all the oems emmisions features..it varies in dimensions and a littel in design. if an oem ltr can pass emissions I cant see why a FIRSt cant ?..please educate me

The test that BADSS refers to...I cant see what is wrong with it, several posts here say why spend the money on an aftermarked base when the oem can be heavily portet..in the test the asm base was portet...dosent the arguments contradict each other? and for the miniram ..if one look at TPIS own figures for it..they dont differ much from the test results.

I called GM Tech support and they said reving a pre ls1 sbc beyond the 6000 mark was highly unwise and that they wherent designed for that. (if we are talking about a standart shortblock and valvetrain, if we are not, then the price issue of the first kinda becomes irrelevant in the big picture)

Is there any one here that have had any "first" hand experience with the first ?

Please point out if Im wrong on something here...

thanks for the info reg the rev limiter, the info on www.fuelinjection.com must be wrong.


thanks

 

Good points Hof, now your seeing what happens when you go against the Norm in this forums!

 

I guess that as part of "the norm" I can tell you that I wouldn't/didn't buy what I needed all brand new.

Use the classifieds to keep your costs down...it helps...

Good luck.

 

Easy. The parts you mention have EO #s that make the certified as emmisions legal. The first is just an inhtake manifold with EGR. It has nothing to do with passing a sniffer. You won't pass a visual without legal parts. And even if you don't have it now, they're on the way everywhere within a few years.

Other than that, no, no one i have seen on here has ever actually had a first system. And the fact that the company has changed hands so many times, and the fact that the webite looks like drunk highschoolers made it, just makes me leary enough that i don't see the point in it. Gte known parts. Or go for it and let us know.

 

$15 dollars an hour?

Last time I checked, I NEVER got paid for my time invested....of course...that's not why I'm into cars. But, yeah, I guess it's easier.


Bottom line is that regardless of what facts or websites you read, and whatever the "norm" says.... If it worked, people would use it. The HSR has just become available and it's already all over the place. Like Ed said,...go for it, and let us know.

 

"You won't pass a visual without legal parts. And even if you don't have it now, they're on the way everywhere within a few years. "

True, but this setup will pass the visual. You can't tell the difference in the base, a larger runner size isn't noticed by most 3rd genners, only the throttle body and side plenum are a giveaway. However, it still looks similar enough that no one will ask unless you go to a state run smog referee. Put on a miniram or super ram, then questions will probably be asked. Also, if egr isn't hooked up, you won't pass in CA without a bribe, but few shops risk that nowadays.

 

If you don't look at making more power through your own elbowgrease as free, you need to find another hobby. I highly doubt you need to take a day off work or call in sick to work on your car any other time.....

Your runner and TB costs are purposely qouted high to prove your point, along with assigning a cost to doing your own porting.

You haven't seen mine. And that isn't to say mine is some sort of piece of artwork.... Most I have seen that weren't done by a noob look great. And is this to say that the FIRST is without casting flaws/flash??????

 

I used to agree, but as I continue to work and get promoted and so on, I'm finding that I get a greater return in salary and options by investing that time in my career rather than my car. I still work on my car, but I spend a lot less time than I did in the past. Bottom line is for the long term, investing in yourself always yields the largest return.

 

To Ed maher :

You have a point. but porting the plenum wouldent that make it "illegal" ? I have seen runners with EO but no base plates, does the avalible baseplates (accel, edelbrok,tpis) have EO ?

one might say this is hassling about details because who would notice if you portet the plenum or had a non EO baseplate...that is true..but then I think the First would have a good chance of passing since it looks so similar.

I emailed the company to ask about EO issue. they said if it showed to be a practical (read real) problem they would get an EO for it.

The company hasent changed hands at all, only the rights and the tooling to make the manifold. It was orginally developed by GM for the GTA Firefox, then Air sensors bought the rights/tooling to make a manifold to GM specs, and they called that the First. Electromotive sold the manifold for awhile after air sensors went out of buisness. Now First injections (a new company that calls it self the same as the manifold) have bought the rights and tooling

(the frist history is what I have been told and can gather form diffrent sources)

Ed I dont quite understand you eagerness to fault the First..Saying it is bad because it looks like drunk highschoolers have made their website...it sounds a littel desperat (read non technically founded). I think the website is quite ok, I took a surf at mrgasket, holley and Lingenfelter...maby they had more fancy artwork..but does that make their bits or service better ? if it does the best thing mr gasket could do would be to hire a lot of webdesigners. A lot of the questions I have asked The First I have also asked mrgasked...and Im still waiting for answers..

to : Abubaca and Matt87GTA

Dont misunderstand me, Im not some rich guy who would rather pay my way out of doing car work, I love my car and I love to work on it! My point was that the reason to why we work is to pay for our "free" time...this means that every hour must have a value. If I can spend 6 hours making money on something and then pay to get something fixed and still have money left I have won time. In practice there are other reasons for doing it yourself the fun part ..the love of the car and ect. But I dont think of my "Free" time to be free, I paid for it. And who here will say that there free time have no value? hope im not completely rambling

to Matt87GTA :

Funny you should say I priced to high to make a point, infact I stated the cheapest I could find, both TPIS and lIngenfelter wanted 500 for a 58 throttelbody. Holley had one cheaper.
TPIS wants 475 for their runners, again I choose the cheaper.

Look it up! I will be waiting for your apoligy

regarding your plenum, im sure you have done a good job. The First probably have casting flaws like anything else, but obstackles in the flowpath are not there by design, like the oem one.


Does anyone have some more hard data on the First...magazine tests ect ?

and again please inform me if I have something wrong..im here to learn


thanks

 

ive been reading this post consistantly and to me it looks like youve done all the research on it and your now looking for more hard proof...

like the gm tech dude said its not wise to spin a cast crank above 6000 (6034) to be exact, so the FIRST would put you in the point were a shift @ 5800 or so would be all youd need...the mini ram is meant to pull to 7000+...not a good idea on a stock crank


how can you say that the FIRST is no better then hogged out stock pieces?

id love to see anyone open up stock pieces or aftermarket for that matter to 1.75 inches...comon

do any of you guys relieze that your comparing a ported LTR to the "stock" first..buy the first and then port it out and how many will still be putting it down?...
just cuz not very many people have one doesnt mean its garbage..if it designed SPECIFICALLY for the firefox...hmmmm that says something to me...kinda like the T-ram..

Hasselhof:...im running a carb on my motor now but this winter im goin back to EFI and now this is another option for me..
that little dyno run down there kinda speaks for itself..
probly have heavy low end grunt and hi end HP..
I like eating my cake

 

I think you guys have been missing the point of mr. Hasselhof's post. He's stated that he wants to keep his power slightly above where the TPI starts to fail. I fully believe that the FIRST will meet his needs. Revving to 6000rpm isn't what he wants, so I can see why he wouldn't want an LT1/HSR

I think that knowing what we want out of our engine is the first step in doing something right when making power. Hasselhof seems to know what he wants, so it's not like he's just making half-hearted guesses here. To me, the only issue for him would be emissions.

As far as cost goes, I think he's just about right in estimating the cost of the FIRST vs. a full NEW aftermarket TPI setup. I think he could do a bit more research in shopping around for either better prices, or just look for used runners/baseplates/TB.

 

Ahh I feel a nice cool breise in my sails..

Nice to hear some openminded comments

to f-crazy :

you are right on the money..im dying for some hard facts please gime gime gime

I too would like to see stock runners opend up to 1.75 inch (not doubthing the skills of the members of thirdgen..im sure it can be done )

The T-ram is an interesting peice..made for the Firehawk wich unlike (sadly) the Firefox actualy got into production. Just from the look of the t-ram i would be more skeptic of its performance..but from the threads I have read about it here..it is by many regarded as the holey grail..why is the First so relativly "hated" ? is it because of me sounding to gagging hopefull of its performance or what ?

or is the case of a potential "ugly duckling" the others diss, out of fear of what it might become? (read, making the word of the accepted wise invalid)


to age :

you are completely rigth, I havent said anything, since I welcome any input. But a street engine is what i want, and for now it will be based on a basically stock shortblock.

You make a very good point, I think many people here are blinded by high (max) hp figures of HSR and MRs and underprioritizing the importance of what the car is to be actually used for.

Right now emissions are no problem for me I live in Denmark, all pre 90 cars dont have to meet any standarts. So I have all emissions deleted incl cat. However I might move to the US and bring my car with me. (My fiancee is American)

 

i refuse to ever buy something from a company with a website that sucks that bad

 

This is not the first time this system has been brought up here and I have yet to hear of anyone running one.... Things like that and their shotty site certainly can provide insight to what kind of operation they are running....

Apologies? HA! Oh ye of the small post count...lol... Easy on the calling people out thing as it can pi$$ some people off big time (not me, but I have seen pi$$ing contests start over less on this site (as well as other sites)). The BBK TBs are $300 through Summit and SLP wants $260 for unpolished runners....

IMHO you're not making any sense with the time thing.... Either you like the hobby and see it as free when you do it yourself (more like see it as fun and an investment in knowledge/experience) or you don't. No two ways about it in my eyes..... Of course there are limitations to what one can do on his own..... But really, given todays resources, are there??? It becomes a question of proper motivation, IMO, most of the time....

Look, you have yourself convinced that the FIRST is what you want, that much is obvious. And it sounds like it will fit your needs. So buy it and be done with it. But that kind of money for ANOTHER LTR setup is stupid in my eyes when FREE porting work and the above mentioned parts will (I wager) net you similar results as to what the FIRST will get you..... I don't have any hard data to compare to, and I don't even have any dyno data on what my engine makes for power... But I did turn 105 MPH in the 1/4 mile with my 355 (we won't talk about the rest of the data from the drag strip as I suck as a drag racer ). This is all just my opinion and you can take it for what it is worth....

(In case you want to debate this further, FYI - I'll be gone for a while doing some training so I won't be able to respond to you...... just so you know )

 

Here, here. Finally, someone said it!!!

 

If it was such a great piece, how came nobody can report on dyno numbers or track times for one. Advertising claims do nothing for me.

As for potential, sure it probably works as well as any other aftermarket LTR set-up. Which BTW, stuff like ASM runners and an accel base are also 1.75". Doesn't really look to me like any of the transitions are that much better than any of the other TPI systsems either. In other words, it's a wash.

Of course, it also has the potential to be a poorly machined, porous casting. Which is why i knock the website and the shady history of the company, and i also consider the fact that i have never heard of anyone that actually had one. If you're going to drop $1k on an intake, wouldn't you like to be sure it was going to fit, not leak, etc?

So once you factor that uncertainty in, most folks will go with the proven commodity.

And that's all there is to it. If you want to run one, go for it and let us know how it works. But in the meantime can you stop quoting marketing propaganda as to it's superiority over everything else. If i didn't know better i'd say you were one of the company's owners trying to drum up business.

 

BTW, for the peanut gallery, just checked his IP and he really is from denmark, so i guess he is just genuinely interested.

 

As far as the time thing goes.....Everyone pays for things, and everyone does things themselves. I would port all day before paying high dollar for a prefab piece, but at the same time, I'll pay for bodywork. Someone else may think that bodywork is fun and that I'm crazy. To each his own....stalemate....end of the issue!!!

 

to Matt87GTA :

I have read all the other threads about the first, and couldent find any hard info, thats why I started this thread to begin with.

You say that a "bad site" and the fact that no one have their product must mean that it is bad. I cant quite see the logic in that. The company have only been selling them for 3 months, before that no first manifolds have been produced for 10 years or so. All I have been able to gather of hard and semi hard info have indicated that the first is worth looking into...thats the whole purpose of this site..to share info. Im trying to get info not sell a product. Im not set on getting the first just because I like the looks of it. The reason to why I might sound set on it is because I wont discard it for non technical reasons. And so far all the negative wind on the First have ben non technically founded.

I cant understand why people here are so hyped reg. the companys website. the website is there to give info and it does so, if people dont like the suthern style bandit music they can turn their speakers down
The company is a littel new family owned company that dosent run fulltime, thats the kind of operation it is, says so on the site. I dont se why that should indicate a bad product..not at all.

Actually I would much rather give my performance dollars (Kroner ) to an operation like that,than a big profit machine like some of the others.

on the Apologies issue, my point was that I hadent purposly looked for the most expensive parts for my comparison. That cheaper parts can be found dosent invalidate my argument.

The Time thing!! Im sorry if my explanatory skills arent top notch, but bare in mind that english is one of my 2 langauges. You try to xplain/describe technical things in German or Danish

The point of the time issue was in order to make a comparison. I think everyone agrees that a comparison agains a unportet ltr with oem plenum would be unfair since the first dosent have some of the restrictions by design. So everyone would port the crap out of their ltr, but in order to make a fair price comparison then that change (the porting) must be converted into a dollar value. simple as that. My point was never that people shouldent port their stuff them selves.
That free time isent free..let me make an example, and lets lay the issue to rest.

If a guy came on a saturday and ask if you would help him roof his house for 1 dollar an hour..you would probably say no..he would then keep adding a dollar until you said yes..that price must be the dollar value of you free time.

to : 92zzz28

Until real info tells me that the first is no good, I will stay interested, but im not set on it. I have studied all the intake options on the market, and now im studing this one.

and if "buy it and be done with it" was the essence of car enthsiasme this site wouldent exist.

to Ed.

I hope dyno results and driver exp.will be avalible soon, but I can understand why there is none yet.

I have never heard of aftermarked runners bigger than 1,66 inch diameter, the FAQ on this site confirms that.

The company gives full unconditional money back garantee, you can buy it, put it on and drive it..if you dont like it..send it back. I got that in writing from the company. What shady history ? the company is less than 6 months old. One could now say that since it has no history is has no track record. True, but if you read the aftermarked vendor review board..the only company I cant find horror storys about is Spohn. so what is best? an unknown company or a company you know have screwed people in the past ? And for the security of going with known products....tons of reports exists of superrams that wont clear wipermotors and being a pita to install and proned to leak because of complex construction. Minirams that are casted poorly, and sometimes wont fit the original heads but only aftermarked. Stealth rams that dents hoods. Slp runners that have very poor fitting. ASM runners that was fixed with JB Weld...and the list goes on

What marketing propaganda have a suposedly quoted ? Please be specifik here!

I have asked several specifik questions to your arguments in my previous posts, you havent answered any.

And who moderates the moderators? calling people liars or acusing them (without facts) to have hidden agendas...is out of moderation in my opinion!

 

The FAQ is wrong. Ed is right. AS&M runners use 1.75" dia tubing. I have a set. I measured them.

 

to : Mark 89Formula and Ed Maher

I was very intriqued when you guys said that ASM runners are of 1.75 inch diameter. I emailed TPIS as far as I understand they sell asm runners as their own, right?

here ís what they said :

Hi

I emailed and asked about the inside diameter of your large tube runners awhile back..maby my email got lost.



1.634 is the ID of the Large Tube Runner.

TPiS
952-448-6021


Where you guys talking about outside diameter ?


thanks

 

a guy ive been talking to online just bought one from FIRST to be installed in his 79 vette with a zz4 so when hes done ill find out how it runs.

 

That's my understanding too

You're in luck. I haven't installed the runners yet so I can easily take measurements. The OD varies from 1.72" at the tightest radius to 1.78" where the tubing joins with the plenum flange. The ID of the runners varied from 1.65"-1.67" at the plenum inlet and base outlet. It's probably a bit less through the middle of the runner but not easy to check.

So Ed, myself, and TPIS all provided accurate data. The difference was the reference dimension. If the FIRST runner has an ID of 1.75" then it is larger than the AS&M/TPIS runners. If that's the OD then they're virtually identical in diameter.

Just for grins I also measured the runner inlet ports on my untouched Accel baseplate. They measure from 1.67"-1.72" and are definitely not perfect circles; kinda "squished" at the wall that separates two adjacent ports. So the Accel may be advertised as having a 1.75" inlet, but my example sure didn't. A little work with a die grinder to true the ports and equalize diameter looks like it's in order.

 

to Mark:

Very cool info, then thats cleared up

The first have an ID of 1,75 thats one of the things that in my mind makes it stand out from the rest.

Everyone I have talked to says that 1.75 is the best headder diameter for a healthy 350, so in my mind it makes sense that the runners should be of equal size.

to nitrovette : Would be soo cool to get some actual user exp. so we can get this discussion off the ground


thanks