I just snagged a set of Accel large tube runners, and it's going to be a couple of weeks till I can get them installed. I was just wondering what kind of gains you got with them. They are huge compared to the stock runners, and very beefy as well. I don't think my car willl have any problems breathing on the top end now! Thanks for your feedback, Chris

 

You'd need to port the plenum and get an intake manifold that can take advantage of those larger runners to see any real gains from them.

 

The larger runners are a good idea, but consider the entire intake system from the airfilter box to the intake manifold. The runners are like in the center. Get ahold of the TPIS upgrades manual. They will take you from filter box to the heads and exhaust. You will need to gut the filter box, get high flow filters, relocate the intake air temp sensor, gut the MAF sensor, get 52 or 58 mm throttle body, port plenum. This will give you best flow upstream of the manifold doing simple bolt-on and mods assuming you still plan to keep the entire TPI system.

Good Luck!

 

I'll be porting the plenum, and siamesing quite a bit out of the base. But I'm not going to get a throttle body, the stock tb can support over 300 hp so I'm good there. But, my original question is what kind of gains did you get with them.

 

I have never heard of this, where would the best place be to move it? (and where is it located in the first place!?)

 

I had the Accel runners but I installed it when I did my cam/head/baseplate upgrades.. so I can't really say that I have anything for you. I can only reiterate what's already been said about port matching.

I can only say that if you do decide to upgrade to an Edlebrock manifold, you'll want to hog out the ports on both the baseplate and the runners. I bought the runners used, and the previous owner had already enlarged the ports. The Edlebrock baseplate ports are the same size as the factory baseplate.

 

Move the Inlet Air Temperature sensor to the air filter plenum after the air filters, but still in front of the MAF sensor. The kit uses a new sensor mounted in a rubber gasket. The kit also comes with a longer sensor wire. Basically, there is a stamped circle on the driver side of the plenum just above the radiator. I drilled a hole, one standard size below what is suggested in the directions (I sanded with a drum sander to make the grommet and sensor fit, they are inseparable). With the sensor and harness installed in the air plenum in the car, I routed the harness back to the firewall. Follow the harness from the original sensor to the main ECM harness. Disconnect original harness (about 12 inches long) and plug in new harness. Watch out for throttle cable interference. The old harness plugs into the main harness behind the distributor / coil area. Hold your head just right and it is not too bad a reach.

You can get the kit from TPIS for about $35.00 including all the steps I listed above. They give you the sensor/grommet assy with the new harness attached. It is a 15 minute job.

 

The original sensor is installed in the main body plenum (box behind the throttle body and with the runners attached to it). At the rear of the plenum and on the driver side the Inlet Air Temperature sensor is mounted on the bottom of the plenum.

 

Relocating the MAT does nothing for a MAF car. Even for a SD car you need to change the MAT table in the PROM to take advantage of it and to keep you from running way too rich in the winter.

Runners are a waste of time on an otherwise stock engine. The real restriction in the stock TPI is the base.

Damn, i stop paying attention around for for a few weeks and suddenly it's misinformation season all over again. The above shoudl be common knowledge to anybody who knows anything about TPI cars.

 

Take it easy there Ed. Actually I have fully ported and polished heads, a comp cam, a 150 shot and too many other bolt-ons to list. And as for the iat relocation, when I did it on my 5.9 Limited Grand, I saw a full 1/10th in the 1/8th. And I know where he is getting the iat relocation info also, Myron Cottrell:hail: , and I think he knows a thing or two about TPI cars.

 

Your 5.9 limited grand doesn't use EITHER of the computers i'm talking about so the expereince isn't germane.

As for what a MAT relocation accomplishes on these cars, it is a known fact that the MAT does not do anything to affect fueling in a MAF car. Or at least, so far NOONE has found such a mechanism either in the code, or through detailed analysis.

As for using a relocated MAT in a SD car, i can GUARANTEE that if you do not recalibrate the inverse delta MAT look-up table when you relocate it, you will run PIG RICH once the temps drop to near/below freezing. I know this because i have a SD car with a relocated MAT, and i saw firsthand how important it is that those tables are changed the first time it got cold and gas mileage fell because the BLMs were bottomed at 108. Not that relocating the MAT is a bad idea. It does help a lot with consistency and heat soak issues. But you HAVE to recalibrate the tables or your just playing with yourself. And there's no excuse not to. Nobody who is into modifying an EFI thirdgen should ignore the chip. So cheap to get into, and so much you can get out of it.


You can believe Myron, a guy who's just out to make a buck. Or you can believe people who have done it, and also know what is in the ECM's code and will give you the real truth.


And how was anybody supposed to guess that you have ported heads, cam, etc. All you asked how much of a change the runners would make. Naturally i assumed you had a stock car. Especially since you hadn't even ported the plenum, something most people do within a month of buying a TPI car.

 

I have Accel runners, but I did all my mods at once, so I can't tell you how much difference the runners alone made. I would assume not much if mated to a stock intake.

Before you start "siamesing" the intake do a little research. You'll find a lot of people that actually went slower afterwards.

From experience, I can tell you that the ears on each end of the runner mounting flanges (at intake) will break fairly easily.
Torque them gently!
They're not nearly as strong as they look.

Also, some allen head bolts and a ball-end T-handle allen-wrench will make life a LOT easier.

If you hang out on the DIY prom board, you'll see there's a lot of folks who say don't gut (de-screen) the MAF since it invalidates the MAF look-up tables. When the MAF tables are goofed-up, the LV8 calculations are hosed cause they are calculated using MAF #s. When the LV8 calculations are hosed, just abt everything else gets hosed too. Maybe not terribly hosed, but certianly not optimum.
The MAF tables can be altered to reflect the correct airflow, but it's a very time consuming task to nail them perfectly. If the MAF table scalers need altering, it gets even more complicated.

There's also a lot of folks on the DIY board that will back-up what Ed was saying abt the MAT sensor having no apparent fueling effects on a MAF sys.

 

I see both your points. I've only been prom tuning for about 2 months now. Thanks everyone for your input and insight. I'm going to get my top end finished and re-assembled w/in the next 2 weeks, and hopefully get to the track and lay down some good times. Actually if the only thing I do is beat my little brother's ATI procharged 00' GT vert auto, I'll be happy. Wish me luck.

 

After reading this thread I have a few questions...

~ What does MAT stand for??

~Has anybody used or heard anything about the Accel/Lingenfelter Super Ram Manifold Base or Accel/Lingenfelter Super Ram Plenum Kit?

Im wondering if buying Accel Runners is worth money when a ton of people take the stock runners and port them out.... Will ported stock runners be as good as Accel runners?

Same question goes for the Plenum's.....is it smarter to port a stock one out or buy an aftermarket one.

Hope my questions make sense.....

Dan

 

MAT= Manifold (intake) Air Temp. It's a temp sensor that measures the air temp in the plenum.

I have an Accel intake manifold. It's a nice piece. Larger ports than
a factory intake. I'm using it with Accel long tube runners (LTRs).
The Super Ram (SR) has a little less torque than the LTRs up to abt 4000 RPM, then catches the LTRs and makes roughly 50 hp more on the top end.
The SRs only drawback is it's supposed to be a real pain to get on and off (and it's a little pricey).

The factory runners are thin walled. There's not enough material to do any porting. The Accel LTRs are larger and thicker. There's a lot of material for porting if needed.

There's no aftermarket plenums avaliable for the LTR set-up.
They are fairly easy to port. There's also a little wall you should remove at the plenum inlet. A search will produce some posts with pics.

The Accel parts work well together especially if used with a matching Accel/Lingenfelter cam (74211). Lots of torque

 

MAT= Manifold (intake) Air Temp. It's a temp sensor that measures the air temp in the plenum.

Ok..I understand that part...(its simple) Before I get started with my questions... Are we talking about the same pieces?? I see there is the Small-block SUPER Ram system and the Small-block STREET Ram system. My questions are based on the STREET Ram system.. Although the more I look over the 2 pieces I wondering if there are any MAJOR differences between the two....




I have an Accel intake manifold. It's a nice piece. Larger ports than
a factory intake. I'm using it with Accel long tube runners (LTRs).
The Super Ram (SR) has a little less torque than the LTRs up to abt 4000 RPM, then catches the LTRs and makes roughly 50 hp more on the top end.

Sorry Im not sure what you're saying there...could you go into a little more detail????



The SRs only drawback is it's supposed to be a real pain to get on and off (and it's a little pricey).

Yeah..I can agree with you on that....Just went to a NICE speed shop and they had the whole SR on display....I had to run outta the shop because I was tempted to buy it on the spot!!!



The factory runners are thin walled. There's not enough material to do any porting. The Accel LTRs are larger and thicker. There's a lot of material for porting if needed.

Is there really a need to port Accel LTR's??? I just figured since you're spending a lot of money on the whole system no porting would be needed....



There's no aftermarket plenums avaliable for the LTR set-up.
They are fairly easy to port. There's also a little wall you should remove at the plenum inlet. A search will produce some posts with pics.



The Accel parts work well together especially if used with a matching Accel/Lingenfelter cam (74211). Lots of torque

I'll keep that in mind if/when I ever buy the products mentioned above...


I hope Im making sense and am starting to understand what you're saying...

Dan

 

no one can answer my questions??

I KNOW I didnt "quote" ZZ28ZZ properly when I copied his questions into my reply.... but I THINK my questions are pretty straight forward..

Dan

 

You should only need to do some port matching to the gaskets and smooth out any rough areas.

 

I'll try to help...

 

I might add..

You seem to be confusing 3 different systems..

The SuperRam...This is the "smog legal competition for Upper RPM TPI's.

The Accel runners and Base..These can be used individually, or together..I/e you stock base will work with the runners, and your runners will work with the Accel base.

The Accel system (your calling StreetRam, thought it was something different?)

Anyway, might help you some to sort it out.