Just curious, trying to see if I can do a lower cost approach to converting a dual-plane to EFI. I'm trying to get around dropping 400+ on the SDPC intake, if possible...plus the ease of changing a Carb-style intake is a plus

FWIW, I plan on running Vortec heads, my RPM range will be up to 5K...max for the engines use...maybe a Comp 258 or 262 hyd roller cam.

Before you ask ... I have the ability to drill and install injector bungs and TIG up a plenum...or modify a stock one to work. I'm not worried about hood clearance for this

.

 

heres a intresting idea...

a vortech truck lower manifold base, and you TIG up a nice alum plenum to work... :lala:



as far as converting the dual plane... its identical to doing a single plane intake... you put your injector bungs in just before the ports, and put a small plenum with a throttlbody adapter on top where the carb was....

 

Hmmn, never even thought about an OEM intake...it's aready to go too...Would the truck intake have a TB on it, that could be run with a 165 or 730 ECM? Ya know, IAC control and TPS input?

I'd imagine a truck intake could be had for dirtcheap, huh?

 

lol, i only got the idea from SATURN5 and Silverback a few days ago when i read it here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=218736



i dont have a vortec anything to compare so i cant say any specifics... athough GM does keep their parts pretty consistant and compatable for the most part... worse case, you just have to build a top half for the stock throttlebody and IAC... or perhaps only a throttlebody adapter...

 

you would have to figure out how to mount traditional style injectors in that truck manifold, since it used that Central Port Injection deal, a cluster of injectors with poppet valves, but if you did that, you could run that manifold with a 165 or 730 with some rewiring of the IAC and TPS.

If you are going to go with a carb style intake manifold, you probably would have a more equal air distribution with a single plane vs a dual plane. you can acutally buy intakes from edelbrock that already have the bungs cast into them.

 

The only problem with a singleplane (IMO) would be that it would shorten the effective runner length...like the HSR does, and lend itself to upper RPM's, I figured with the dualplane acting as a longer/narrower runner, then then engine would keep itself happy in the lower RPM range.

Cool thing is I did see on EBAY Vortec carb intakes (probably made offshore) for 125.00 new plus 20.00 to ship. Seem to be a copy of the Edelbrock intakes.

I found a few pics of the GM truck intake, and don't think it's what I'd want...but need to see one in person and take some measurements.

 

From what I have heard, a single plane intake is the way to go. The reason a dual plane setup is used with a carb is due to the air/fuel distribution, which it is better at. With EFI, you don't have to worry about that because you are just trasnporting air to the cylinder throught the manifold. IMO, a dual plane would hurt you.

 

You definatelty want a single plane. You are going to be running bank to bank, so the single plane will offer better distribution. You don't have a way to trim individual injectors, so a dual plane isn't ideal.

The torque will be fine with the single plane. Runner length is important, but the differences between a carb intake and a TPI system are far greater than the differences between a single plane and dual plane carb manifold. You will already be giving up a lot of low end going from TPI to carb style. I doubt you'd notice a difference between single and dual plane.

If the engine is otherwise stock you really need to consider a cam and heads (ported, or AM). Full exhaust is a must too.

 

The 165 and 730 ECM are batchfire, not bank to bank, but regardless, wouldn't running a singleplane intake be like doing an HSR swap?

Just for reference, I wanted to run the Vortec heads (for price) and run portinjection (because I have a few TPI setups collecting dust), without dropping 4 bills on SDPC's intake base, cam profile will be smallish...the 258 and 262 I mentioned are in the range of RPms I will be staying at and should work well with unmodded Vortec heads for what I'm after...have to check the lift again on the 262 though.

 

What were the original applications for the 165 and 730 ECMs?

 

They're our F-body ECMs...either MAF (165) or SD (730).

 

Then they are bank to bank. I'm not as familiar with the SD systems, but I know for a fact that the MAF systems have two banks of injectors that are fired one at a time.

In effect it isn't any different than a TBI setup, except there's eight port injectors instead of two in the TB. I'm currently running a TBI ECM in my Blazer with a custom PROM that allows it to run 8 port injctors in bank to bank mode.

 

The schematic for my 165 ECM (MAF) shows only one injector driver output that goes in parallel....Anyway, not to get into this, but even if it were bank to bank, it shouldn't make any difference, since the firing order on the engine isn't bank to bank. Fuel suspension in the runner of the intake should/would be pretty much the same wouldn't it?

What type of intake are you running? Is it the Edelbrock conversion?

 

Oh, BTW, I'm not sure of the TBI ECM...but it's not the same as either the 165 or 730 (TPI ECMs)

 

I think we're saying the same thing, just using different terminology. Basically, the ECM fires four injectors at a time. On one side of the motor, and then the other. I refer to this as bank to bank (fires one bank and then the other), which I would consider the same thing as batch fire, since it is firing a batch of injectors at a time.

Yes, I am running the Edelbrock system. It is modified, but it started out as their system.

The TBI ECM is different than the TPI ECMS. They use the same plugs though, but the pin-outs are different.

 

Batch fire is all 8 injectors at once, bank to bank is leftside, then right side...anyways....

Your Edelbrock setup, is that thier manifold...like I see advertised as a TBI to Port Injection swap?

If so, is it a singleplane intake?

 

Oh, well the stock system definately doesn't fire them all at once. I've run noid light tests on them to determine this.

Yes, it is their conversion kit, with their intake. It is single plane.

 

How's it pull down low? Is it pretty crisp?

 

You're the second person I know of who actually did this, and you came up with the same result. Same result... what a shock.

Maybe the rest will learn someday.

 

Well, hell, schematics say one thing, noid light tests say another...kinda tough for me to vision using two noid lights and being able to watch the flash while the engine is running, but what they hay...

So, in the interest of fair play (and since I've gotten use to the mid 40's weather and reinstalled my intake) I'll be firing up my '89 tomorrow and hook my dual trace scope to it...one lead one one side, one on the other...we'll find out if the 165 fires all 8 at once, or 4 then 4.





TKO, did you use two noid lights simultaneously? Only way I could see it being valid..albeit tough to get a visual on.

 

I used a full set of eight. At a 650 RPM idle you can see the difference. Turn out the lights and it's even more apparent.

 

I didn't realize I forgot to answer your other question about the Edelbrock conversion kit.

The throttle response is instantaneous from any position. The motor makes a torque curve you could lay bricks on. It's like driving a totally different truck. I pulled ahead on a Porsche Boxster from 80-100MPH. Not much, maybe his bumper on my door, but the fact that I could even keep up, much less accelerate faster than a German sports car is amazing. I've had people tell me it's the fastest thing they've ever been in.

 

Too cool, how's the lowend response, say from off idle...i/e 10-15 MPH's and hitting the throttle?

 

The engine is angry all the time. It runs like a bear that you woke up by jamming a stick up its, well you know.

You floor it and it just goes. Torque everywhere. Off idle right up to 5,500 when the trans bangs second and it surges foreward again.

I used to drive through the Harbor Tunnel into Baltimore and floor it just to hear the 3rd gear downshift.

It's awesome. I can't wait to get a trans back in it. The stock 700R4 took a lot of abuse over 135,000 miles, so I can't really get mad at it.

 

Ya know, I'm thinking I like this Edlebrock setup...I looked at it on Jegs, and appears it has some runners to it.

SO what is your setup? cam/heads is my main question?

 

Blueprinted 350 block with flat top 4-valve relief pistons. About 8.5:1 compression. Edelbrock Performer RPM heads (6073) with 2.02/1.60 valves. Crane hyrdaulic roller .488/.510 lift 214/222 lift at .050", Edelbrock Multi-Point EFI conversion for trucks, gutter Holley 670cfm throttle body (no injectors now, it just flows air), 1.5:1 Crane aluminum roller rockers, Mallory billet distributor, MSD 6AL, MSD 8.5mm wires, 2,000 stall Hoelshot B&M converter, B&M shift kit, B&M deep trans pan, B&M 4th gear sleeve, stock 10.5" 10-bolt rear with open 3.08 carrier, and 31" tall tires.

The rear blew, so I built a new one with 4.88s and a Detroit, plus a Warn full float kit. It sat for a long time before I got to the rear. The trans was starting to slip before the rear blew. From sitting it lost all but low/reverse. I didn't even try to mess with it, since I knew it needed a trans anyway. I'm trying to get parts together to build up a trans for it, probably with one of Pro-Builts kits. Then I think it will be damn near unstoppable.

 

Well I'm definitely impressed, lower CR than I plan, and a larger cam than i plan on running, I'd expect I may even be crisper down low than you are.

I won't be running the gears you have, but the smaller cam and higher CR should make up for it.

BTW, mine will be going into my '57 1/2ton PU, if you're familar with the body style, you kow it's a brickwall traveling down the road...ala the reason I want as much available tq in the 1500-3500 range as possible.

I see Edelbrock has a Vortec EFI conversion setup for about a grand+...similar to what you're running?

 

Yeah, when I was building the motor I was driving the truck daily, so I used a compression ratio that I could run 87 octane with. Compression isn't worth as much power as a lot of people think.

I'm familar with the '57 body style. Nice looking truck. About as aerodynamic as my Blazer too!

My guess is you're talking about the EDL-3501 kit in the Summit catalog. I've got the EDL-3502 kit, so they are basically identical. The kit was like $1,200 when I bought it. They've really come down in price.

You will need to either have a custom PROM burned, or run an adapter harness and DFI to really get it to work with anything other than the stock parts, or the Edelbrock Performer (emission legal) package. I used the DFI route and built my own maps for the engine. Worked fairly well. It ran with the Edelbrock chip, but it was far from ideal.

 

Any progress?

 

Well, kinda

I decided to port a set of 081's to use instead of the Vortec's, so
I set up an old SP2P Edelbrock intake I had instead of buying anything, modified a stock plenum for the intake and bolted it all together.

The only thing that wasn't completed were the fuel rails, I couldn't use the stock ones, the injector holes just didn't line up right for where I wanted the injectors at.

Unfortunately I never ran it though, I traded the setup to my nephew for a saddle for my daughter. When he gets some ambition, we'll do the install in his truck.

 

Man, I was looking forward to seeing pictures. I could understand everything except the air/throttle control.

I was figuring if I could see it then I could ****** the electronic stuff from a camaro in the junk yard, and make my own and be WAY less than the 1500-2000 minimum that I've been seeing.

Well maybe later.

Jason

 

If I get some time this weekend, I'll see if I can get ahold of it and clean it up, take it to work on Monday and take some pic's of it.