I have a customer with an 87 that he wants to make 400-500 horsepower with. I told him to do that with a TPI setup is going to be expensive and that the stock TPI intake is pretty much going to have to go. Here is the idea I have but I don't know if this will see 400 at the wheels. Probably at the crank but not the wheels, so I'd like to hear some ideas for tweaks to this combo to boost it up some more.

350 bored and stroked to 383
Forged rotating assembly (maybe from Eagle)
Vortec heads highly modified for larger cam and possibly ported
LT4 Hot Cam
Holley Stealth Ram Setup
30 lbs. injectors
Custom Tune

Anyone running something similar to this or have a best guess on hp? I was thinking maybe right around 400? The reason we'll be using forged internals is that he wants the option to run a 100-150 shot of nitrous. Will the Vortec's flow enough or should I suggest Dart or AFR 195's maybe? Maybe a larger cam?

 

I know that the vortec's will flow enough but the AFR's flow better. The LT4 cam is a good cam but I'm sure with a more specific need(more power, driveablity, N20 use) there is a better cam for your choice. It matters what heads your getting becuase the cam and heads and nitrous have to work together.

It matters how much money you want him to spend

 

He's got a budget of about $5500 for parts and machine work. As for matching the cam to the heads I'm fully in agreement. Matching it to the nitrous isn't as important as he won't be using the nitrous that often, the car will be more of a street machine. I guess I want to see if anyone has successfully made 400 or more rwhp with modified Vortecs because if so that leaves me some extra cash for a better rotating assembly and other parts. Also am I correct in assuming the Stealth Ram can flow enough or should I look towards another intake. I'm partial to the SuperRam since that's what I run but I'm only making about 300 or so horse at the wheels.

 

400HP is pretty close to the limits with stock Vortec heads. Assuming you get them ported quite a bit, then there's a lot more potential. I'd also go with a bigger cam. Something along the lines of a CompCams Xtreme roller grind around 220/230 duration. I'm running LT1 heads and intake with a 224/230 and I have great pull down as low as 2000RPM, and pulls easily to 5800-6000RPM (I think I'm being limited a bit by ignition).

You don't need forged rods/crank to handle a 100-150shot of spray either, though forged is never a bad idea. Any more than a 125-150 shot and I would definitely recommend forged. Fully forged should be able to handle upwards of a 250shot. Make sure to use ARP bolts throughout as well.

 

Duron do you have any dyno numbers for your setup?? What kind of computer/wiring changes are involved with the LT1 intake swap?

 

Not yet. I was considering getting it dyno tuned a few weeks ago but decided I'm best off waiting until I get a trans installed that doesn't slip, and I might as well finish off my upgrades first. Didn't want to get it dyno-tuned, not drive it in the winter, upgrade the heads/cam in the winter, and then have to get it tuned again.

I'll have numbers up in the spring. Should be enough for low low 12s or high 11s with enough traction.

 

You can make that HP with the stock TPI intake AND stock heads.

Use stock crank, cam, heads
bore block .030
machine spring pockets in heads for comp dual springs
new cheap rods
8.5:1 forged pistons
aeromotive FMU
36# SVO injectors
F.A.S.T DFI

and a used turbo from a 2002 - 2005 Ford power stroke

Fab up exhaust to feed turbo

Fab up cheap methanol / water injection to save weight, space, piping and money (so you don't need intercooler).

DIY junkyard turbo websites are in the plenty to show you how to do it and do it cheap.

You could do that for well under $5,500.00.

Probably would be in the $4,000.00 range

Just my

 

The diesel? More info on that please? Interested.

 

Its been done this is from one of the stickies above:

TPI shootout in Feb Super Rod magazine
Super Rod did a decent TPI shootout in their Feb. issue. It has:

Stock TPI (410hp, 500lb-ft)
Edelbrock High-Flo (431hp, 501lb-ft)
Extrude Hone base & LTR (451hp, 534lb-ft)
TPIS Big Mouth System (460hp, 534lb-ft)
ASM Siamesed Runners (464hp, 510lb-ft)
SLP T-Ram (466hp, 495lb-ft)
Accel SR (480hp, 506lb-ft)
Holley single plane (493hp, 480lb-ft)
HSR (501hp, 493lb-ft)
MR (505hp, 471lb-ft)

The engine was a 10:1 383 with Trick Flow heads and the Comp XR288HR (236/242, .520/.540)

The article is mssing a few things that I would have liked to have seen. They used different size TB's for a number of the tests and the cam is better suited for the short runner stuff. All of the combos made decent power though. I would have liked to have seen a RPM Air Gap and properly sized carb tested as well.

AFAIC, the HSR is the winner as far as numbers:$. And i'm a SR guy, lol.

If you want the RPMs and graphs you'll have to buy the mag.

It would be nice if this thread could manage not to turn into a massive cluster **** of stupidity and ignorance


__________________

 

That's exactly what I was looking for. Do you happen to have a number or anything that I can call to get the back issue? Was it just a single issue thing or are there more months that I'll need to get?

Thanks!

 

They left off the LT1 intake conversion. When I owned the business they contacted me for a test intake. I agreed and said just let me know when you need it. They never contacted me back, either forgot or changed their minds, I'll never know.

Anyway, here's a nice write up on the different TPI intake replacements.

Intake Compare

 

The vortec heads and Hotcam are not big enough to support 400 rwhp.
Look at the Trickflow topend kits. They have a few in the 450 to 500 fwhp range. The 450 it is using a 230 @050 cam. They are 383's-read the fine print.
Then an HSR or LT1 style intake. If they are the type that just hammers their stuff then you want a lower CR setup.
If they actually pay attention to what the motor sounds like then you'll want 10.5 or more cr with the AL heads.
Easy to do with the 383, FT, & 64cc heads.


The 2005 Power strokes use a variable vane turbo and need computer control so you can't use them. Look for a turbo off a
7.3L not the 6.0 which came out in 2004 I think.
They're big too... Might want a 62-1 or a T70 instead.
About $800 new.

 

Yeah I think I'm going to go with something similar to the StealthRam buildup from the magazine article. I think I might go with AFR195's instead of Trickflows though. That cam should be good though right?

 

I'll give me .02 in here. I have a 383, 9.6 compression, moderate flat tappet cam, 180cc AFR heads, and the HSR with 32 lb/hr injectors and I am probably making around 425fwhp. I have a 58mm to put on and unrestrict the exhaust but I hope with those 2 mods I will be around 450hp. 400rwhp is a lot if you dont plan to run a big cam or solid cam. There is an article in the SuperChevy this month....406/210cc AFR heads, HSR, solid cam making 480 hp or so...can't remember the actual numbers. Hope this helps a little.

 

That definitely helps.....which month's issue is it? Oct. or Nov? Do you know what's on the cover?

 

A 2 bolt cast crank stock rodded sbc shortblock with a nice set of flat tops should easily be good to hold 450-500 hp all day. Save the money on the rotating assembly and match a nice cam and great set of heads together. Thats where your power's going to come from. My $0.02. If we keep up with the $0.02 thing he'll be able to pay for the motor himself!

 

i love how they call this a TPI L98 build when absolutely NOTHING from a TPI or L98 is even being used. new block, new intake, new computer, new heads/internals, new everything. its just a fuel injected small block. LOL

406 chevy
210 AFR's
HSR with 65lb injectors
commander 950 ecu
250/259 solid roller 630/637 lift with1.6 rockers 114lsa

481.5 hp at 5800rpms
470lb feet at 4700rpms


you can make 400flywheel hp with vortec heads and hot cam but not 400 wheel. a 383 with hsr and a 230/236 cam with .550 lift on afr 195s with good tune should make near 400rwhp. thats what i plan on running

 

Let me ask you guys.....how much power is an aftermarket ECM system worth compared to a well tuned stock ECM?

 

Basically no power, and I work for an aftermarket ECU company.
Usually simpler in the fueling and spark control (until you go wideband fuel control). If you have an 86-92 TPI or even TBI wire harness in there, you'll save a ton of money by programming the stock ECU with an Autoprom from Moates.net, or something similar. That power level is going to require a lot of cam, which can be difficult to run in closed loop (at 14.7) with at some points (like idle).

If you're on any form of budget, stay stock ECU, and program the chip yourself (you can even use the programming stuff to do other stocke ECUs). If you like to waste a little money, get some company to burn a chip, and then learn to program the chip yourself. If you have money on fire for fun, get an expensive wideband closed loop ECU (but, just a plug - our ecu can run wideband input and is cheap, but it's not a direct plug in, and doesn't do knock control, etc..., would be more of a piggyback as-is for best of everything). The stock ecu is quite a slick unit, and has put cars into the 9's or better, but it's complex in some ways. Once you figure out EFI and engine management in general though, they all become the same.

 

Yeah I have a guy who does all of our tuning on stock systems, I was just curious what the real scoop was on aftermarket ECM's since I've never used one.

 

I am going to say that is not a good idea. He needs to try to air on the cautious side. He should use a four bolt main block and at the very least a series 900 crank and forged rods and pistons. I would hate to hear that a "400"to "500" hp engine came apart and ruined the whole set up. It would not look good for your shop either.

Sure a two bolt main and cast crank and rods could hold it together for daily driving and usuall accel. But what if he frequently hammers it and abuses it? Something could break fast, leaving him mad and you with a bad reputation.

 

Agreed

 

Had you considered putting the LT-1 heads and intake on the block. You would just have to convert the heads to work, per the article on here. Then of course have the heads ported out. That would seem like the cheapest route. You can get already ported LT-1's for pretty cheap.

 

As long as you put the shortblock together properly, a cast crank, stock prepped rods with arp bolts and trw 2491 pistons or hypers will take all the abuse you can throw at it. No need for high dollar parts when you are on a budget. Those parts will take spray and boost also. Spend your money where you actually make power, in the heads, cam, intake and exhaust.

 

Absolutely agreed. I wouldn't have suggested it if I hadn't done it. I built a stock 2 bolt, cast crank and rodded, flat top 357 for a guy in town. He put it in a sprayed S10 pick up and ran the motor for 3 years. It was a street driven truck (automatic) that saw the track maybe 4-5 times a year. It had a beautifully done set of dart heads and a great camshaft and produced 465 hp natural and when he did spray it it was a 250 shot. Truck went 10 o's 9.95 at a buck forty! I bought the motor back threes years later and stuck it in my 67 Acadian (chevy II in the states) with a 456 dana AND A STICK and BEAT THE CRAP out of it for 2 more years and then sold the car. That guy pounded on it for another year (even broke an axle in the dana 60!!) and the motor was still running strong when the car was cut up and a round tube chassis built for it. This was with a stick car which shocks the crank WAY harder that an automatic car. Prep all your pieces properly and check everything twice and you can absolutely get a low dollar bottom end to handle the kind of power you are looking at!

 

It occurs more often that you hear of a low dollar rotating assembly in a high power engine failing under high stress than you do of a low dollar rotating assembly holding up forever under hard driving. Yes it can be done, but it is not arguable over which one is safer or better.For the price of remand rodsreconditioned rods, you can get forged ones. Forged pistons ar not that much more either. You can get series 9000 cranks for $150.

 

My carb'd 355 made a tad over 500 fhp on a dyno....and its a 2-bolt block w/ a GM cast crank. It's got 4340 5.7 h-beam rods and hyperuetectic(spell check this...) flat-tops. I turn it between 7- 7,600 in low gear.

Not that a good bottom end is a bad thing, but a good combination and some care in the build process goes a long way...

 

Its the November 2005 with a orange '69 camaro on the front and next month they are adding a Procharger to the combo for 700hp.

 

I am pushing 450hp on a 2 bolt main and its my daily driver too but it rarely sees more than 2500 rpms on any day. Really it never goes above 2G so...I baby it until its play time!!

 

they put a procharger on the 406 HSR and got 780hp a 6100rpms. not a bad motor but its not a L98 by any means LOL

still think a 383 HSR can get 400wheel with a 230-236 intake and 236-242 exhaust cam

 

Paul, excuss me I simply skipped to the bottom here.

It is my experience that your buddy will need the HSR to get that much Hp at the drive wheels. He will probably need to spin the rotating assembly at above 6,000 RPM, most likely even 6500 RPM.

So, HSR with a forged crank and at least 350 cubes, probably 383.

Check my sig, I spent alot of money to get 340RWHp with a Superram, but I was after a totally streetable car with awesome torque and total relaibility, hence the forged assembliy with peak power coming in at about 6000RPM. I am no great mechanic, but I think that I got mostly of what I wanted. Yes, and I know that maybe I should get a bit more Hp, but I am going thru a MAF.

Having said that, a MAP car probably would be a better choice for unrestricted incoming air. Everything else in your first post seems right on. IMO. and good luck.

 

Doc,
Thanks for the reply. I have a very similar setup to yours in my car except for the cam profile. I wouldn't mind getting a look at your .bin if you have access to it. Let me know. I wish I could have made closer to 360-380rwhp with my combo but it's very reliable and a joy on the street.

 

With most of the results and articles I have seen on TPI builds, the LT4 Hot cam is not a good choice for getting good power out of TPI... Comp cams would be my choice for cam selection... due to the LONG runner length, TPI needs a cam made for TPI

 

This combination will get you 400 RWHP.

1986 Coupe, auto, 3.45 gears, 1973 406, 11.5 to 1 compression, SLP cold air, gutted MAS, 58 MM throttle body, ported plenium, Superram intake, TPIS BASE, 23 degree Trick Flow Heads, ZZX cam, TPIS headers, TCI 3000 stall, 3" duel exhaust, Cheap and easy free mods, custom chip, daily driver
RWHP 405 @ 5400 RWTQ 436 FTLBS @ 4000

Best run
60 ft = 1.536
1/8 = 7.116 @ 95.874
1/4 = 11.185 @ 121.04

 

question...........

would the lt4 hot cam be a better match with the vortec heads and a stealth ram?

 

With Vortec heads I could probably say yes. That would make for a strong reliable street combo.

 

That is what I am doing... '99 Vortec 350, LT4 Hotcam kit, 9.7:1 pistons, Ford Motorsport 24lb injectors, Holley Vortec StealthRam, Holley 52mm TB... I just got my StealthRam in the mail yesterday. It looks a little tall, not sure if it is taller than the regular stealthram or not. I also am trying to decide to put LT4 size valves in the heads or not. (2.00, 1.55)... When all is done my chip will be provided by Ed Wright (fast chips)...

 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE....post your times when you get the beast running. i am waiting with "bated breath" to see the numbers on this combo.

it will determine if i buy a stealth ram or not. i have a super ram but don't want to contend with the modifacations necessary to put them on vortec heads.

so again.........PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE.......

 

I am still trying to figure out what pistons and rods (if other than stock) I am going to use. I am also still trying to decide between 2 machine shops. I dont want this to be a 20,000 mile motor. I want it as reliable as a factory motor. So give me a little time to get my ducks in a row and I will post some dyno numbers as well as track times.

 

understood.

next time thunder racing puts those things on sale, i just may go ahead and buy one and let YOU know how it goes.

good luck with your project

 

I'm running a vortec stealth ram car and I would recomend it to anyone

The motor is a 357 with a factory lt-4 cam (1.5 rockers) factory vortec heads flat top 4 valve relief hyper pistons stock crank and rods topped off with the vortec stealth ram 24lb motorsport injectors and a custom cold air with a K&N cone exhaling through a set of super comps and 4in mufflex on the one shake down pass I got out of it I ran 13.48 at 103

Not bad, If you ask me it has yet to be tuned, the cam is peanut and its on street tire with all stock suspension

 

THANKS.

gotta agree you need tuning and suspension work. (no disrespect meant) bet you have a serious traction problem. you should be well in the 12s, i would think with your set up. nothing wrong with your time, there should just be more.

are you on stock chip and throttle body? how bout exhaust?

still havn't been to the track yet but i am walking mid 13 cars pretty bad from stop light to stop light (0-70to80mph). i have ported the plenum and cleaned up the gaskets which all seem to help. also holley 52mm tb and 24lb bosch injectors.

i am also still have the 2.77s in the rear. (have traction problems even with the mods to the suspension) want to change the gearing and go to the stealth ram at the same time since i will be trading off torque for more hp at higher rpms.

 

Yeah I'm on 345 gears and have to really feather the gas to get out of the hole the best 60ft ive ever got out of it is a 2.0

the chip im not sure about but the previous owner said he had a custom mail order done but obviously it was tuned for LTR and not stealth ram but the quality of mail order tunes is questionable regardless

Not to mention its stock throttle body and none of the ports have been cleaned up everything is just bolted togeather as is

 

yeah thats not too bad with a LT4 NON hot cam. with tunning for sure, u can probly get that up to 105-106mph....and possibly dip high 12's. its definately wanting a bigger cam tho.

i'm lookin to run similar times on a stealthram on my stock L98 with a dyno tune some day... hopefully if all goes well, i can do it by next spring or summer at the latest...

 

Trust me I know all too well

 

LOL 3.45 gears. i will bet you smoke the tires like a cheap cigar!!

the guy at scroggin dickie, where i got my engine, was running corrected (for elivation of course) mid 12s. also 1.8 or little better 60' times. now he did have 3.73 gears but i never asked him about traction.

your chip and tune are KILLIN you.

i would think that the lt4 "not" so hat cam would love the HSR. what came would you suggest for the vortec/HSR set up?
(shesh, i hope i don't start a war here, again)

also, how much difference will the came make? come on gimme a WAG.

 

remind me to re-read my post before i submit it. shesh, my spelling sux.

 

Well when I started with the car a year ago it ran 14.45 at 97 that was with the long block the way it is now (cam included) but with a Dickie base and stock runner + pleanum with TES headers (air welded shut) and a 3inch totl cat back

I swapped for stealth ram and changed to svo injectors and went 14.0 at 100

Then I added the supercomps mufflex (4 inch) and a tune up and went 13.48 at 103

 

you got half a sec from mufflex!!!!!

best place to get info on this marvel?

 

Well headers and exhaust I also put on a set of hooker long tubes but you can read about mufflex here

http://www.mufflex-performance.com/