Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

To start we are leaving in the stock dizzy but just for the cam sensor till we figure more stuff out.

scuzz

Go to this thread 69ghost and I were posting to before this post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ion-gen-i.html
I think Craig starts chiming in at post 34 about his project, and I think he used a stealthram.
Ron

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Anyone know if there are any alternate options for the crank sensor? Im going to be running a pre-87 block with a retro-roller, so the vortec pick up really isnt an option.

jwscab

probably have to make one to run behind the balancer, in between the balancer and timing chain cover. could probably re-use the vortec sensor. I think there is room for about a 1/4" plate. I have a 'plan' eventually to run a northstar coil pack, and the notched wheel is going to run behind the balancer, using some spacers and bolts coming though the back of the balancer so that the pulleys would mount on the bolts like they were studs. At least in theory.......

otherwise, maybe run behind the pulley, but you would have to space the whole accessory system out.

could probably use a flying magnet if you put a signal conditioner on the sensor. either a standard MSD type setup, or maybe something that runs off the flywheel.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I was thinking of the flying magnet setup. MSD makes a general use hall effect sensor, but Im wondering if there are any requirements for the pulse duration for the PCM to trigger properly.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

talk to Six_Shooter off the v6 forum. He made his own bracket system for a crank sensor on a v6 motor. Could use some of his thoughts on making one for a v8.

jwscab

yeah, thats why I meant by signal conditioning. You could build a flip flop circuit that triggers on every pulse to create a 50% duty cycled signal to feed to the ecm.

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

from what i understand the majority of the gurth of the fuel rail is just cooling fins. if you were to cut a couple of inches off the end of the tube there would just be a hole in the center of the shaft that would need to be tapped and fitted with a fitting. I don't think it would be open the entire area of the shaft. i know you can buy bulk fuel rail that comes in like 4 foot section that you just cut to fit and drill your injector holes and feed lines. it physicaly looks the same. i have a hsr and will soon cut the ends off to see.

scuzz

Look at this post as to what I did to my Ramjet intake to shorten both sides.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ion-gen-i.html
Read message #29 as to modding them.
I think someone else welded up the ends after shortening and tapped hole in side of rail. I tried to keep fuel flow smooth as I could.

RickU

Great thread I just read through the whole thing. I have a question though. I have a '97 GMC Safari with a 4.3L V6 CSFI and OBDII with a 4L60E. I'm going to swap in a '96-'99 Vortec 5.7L V8 with either a HSR, or a Ram Jet and a ZZ 4 or LT 4 hot cam. My question is, can I use my exsisting black box PCM to control this set up or should I convert to the 0411? I read the marine intake thread at Pacific Performance forum, and the HSR or Ram Jet look like way better options then the marine intake. I know power costs money, but like everyone I want to keep costs down. I'm just looking for the easiest way to get rid of the congested CSFI Vortec manifold and keep OBDII functioning with no error codes, because they test where I live. Thanks.

scuzz

You should be able to control it with your old PCM, but the 0411 is just a much better and more tunable PCM.
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/...7l-vortec.html
Check out the thread and all links in thread.
It's been done before.

RickU

Thanks for posting that link. I guess I should have figured that if my compuer can run the marine intake it should run others with similar injectors(Duh).I have another question though. They emission test where I live by checking at the OBDII port. Can either PCM(black box or 411) be programed to run a V8 file and still be able to run my trucks VIN #(a V6 with a W in the #)? I don't know for sure, but I would imagine when they check the OBDII for function and error codes they are also checking the VIN #. Maybe Lextech could help answer some of this since he get's tested in suburban Chicago also.

battman

iTrader: (2)

You can program any vin you like in the 0411 PCM. so yes you can change your ecm and os and still retain the original vin.

RickU

That's great news. Another reason to switch to the 0411. That's what I'll be doing then.Thanks for the reply.

shocker89bird

Hey thanx Ron for looking back. I had talk to Craig in the past and ask for suggestsions. unfortuantely I have been unable to find anyone nearby that is willing to look at the distributors or tackle the fuel rails. Kinda aggrivating lol. I pmed Craig to see if he would be willing to take a look at the distributors again. I am sure he doesn't want that headache again though lol.

badgta

iTrader: (4)

so basically where are we at with everything?.... and is there anyone thats selling a complete conversion kit yet?

scuzz

I doubt that anyone will, because every installation is going to be somewhat different.
Part of the enjoyment I get from this kind of stuff, is seeing how much I can do on my own.
I do have to depend on someone else to do a harness, but my gratification, is to put something together the best I can, and see if the D**n stuff will work.
If it refuses to co-operate, a lot is learned by back tracking to see what you did wrong.
I wish I'd had a stronger background in electronics instead of shadetree engineering though.
Everyone had different skill levels though, and one of the great things about this site, is there's always someone willing to help.
I do a lot of Honda stuff as well, and when you post questions on a lot of those sites, you get a lot of wise *** answers about how you should already know that or "look it up".
Not here, unless is has been hashed several times already.

S10Wildside

Unfortunately there will never be a universal kit for this conversion due to the differences in wire harnesses throughout the models (V6, V8 TBI, V8 TPI, etc) and the years (85-88 are the "easy" ones, 89 and newer are much more involved).

Even if the harness could be universal, the PCM tuning will still be custom. Of the dozen or so cars that have received this conversion, I don't think any one of them have a stock 350 TPI engine.

It's a great conversion and will likely continue to be unique to each car that receives it.

PonyKiller87

I didn't see this come up anywhere yet. What are you guys doing as far as fuel pressure? I know the vortec truck engines run around 62 psi and the TPI uses around 42 psi. So do you stick with the TPI setting or bump it up to what the computer is expecting to see?

scuzz

I thought the L31 used 19# injectors. The pumps are basically compatible with TPI and LT1 pumps.
I used a 96 truck pump in my tank with 24# injectors, and my Ramjet has a LT1 type regulator on it, and I tweeked up my injector settings by about 7 percent in the 0411 PCM to reflect the bigger injector.

Black85sport

Has anyone started with a 01 411 4.3 wiring harness and used it with a V8 setup? I bought a 411 ecm on ebay and it comes with the vortec 4.3 harness. I assume its relatively easy to add the extra two injectors?

scuzz

On one of the S10 V8 boards, I saw an article where some guys are using the later L31 engines in 96 up S10 bodies, and they just change the length of some of the engine wires and run two extra injector wires.
Then re-flash the PCM or replace for the V8 cal.
I can't remember where it was though.
Attached is a pic of the V8 injector plug for comparison to the V6.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

At the very least youll have to adjust the cal to input the correct # of cylinders, or a direct overwrite with a V8 cal. There are probably other parameters in there to configure the hardware for the extra two cylinders and difference in reference pulses per rev. Some portions, especially the RPM calculations, are dependant on the # of cylinders. Theres also the possibility that there are differences at the hardware level.

Black85sport

I found a tune for the 350 express van that I will use to run the setup. I'm assuming I can just overwrite the tune thats already on the ecm with HPTuners.

I didn't mention it in my post above, but I want to run a TPI multi-port setup on my engine. The harness came in the mail this morning. The thought of the vortecs using only one injector never even crossed my mind. My harness only has one plug. But what I paid for the harness and the 411 ecm, I can't go wrong.

I do have a leftover TPI harness from a 1990 Corvette that used the weatherpack ecm. I *should* be able to make one good harness out of the two.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

sport, your doing the same thing as I did. I merged two harness together.

Correction though, vortecs used 8 poppet injectors. Not one.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Anyone know what the resistance of the poppet solenoids are? The 98/99 one I have has small transisters w/o heatsinking in it and Im wondering if they can handle regular injectors at 12-14 ohms.

PonyKiller87

Should be able to handle it or you wouldn't be able to do the marine intake as easily. Pretty sure with that they just switch the intake, cut off the big single plug and wire it to the individual injectors.

scuzz

Yeah, I've seen 2 different articles where the truck guys just cut their plug to the poppet and wired up 8 seperate injector wires for Ramjet setup also.
One link is here:
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/...7l-vortec.html

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=S10Wildside;3653027] I don't think any one of them have a stock 350 TPI engine.

QUOTE]


The camaro did and it accually ran better then the bone stock MAF System. ONLY mod at the time was 42lbs injectors lol. Pre-Blower era

We accually started the Camaro a few days ago when it was 5* outside. Started right up before the engine could even make one full revolution. As for the Formula, I havent seen it in over 6 months lol. I'm sure when I go to start it up it should be the same.

PonyKiller87

Can someone post a list of all the different configurations that could be done with this new setup? Something like 4.3/4L60e, 5.7/4L60e, 5.7/4L80e,....

I have been talking to people about this and questions have come up like is there a cal file for the ecm to do a 4.3/4L80e or will this work on a 7.4/4l80e.... can anyone that has access to all the cal files make a list ?

scuzz

I've had a couple 0411 PCM's that had a cal for the 4.3/4L60E setup. I think the S10 had that setup.
Check out this link if it works okay, it is a cross reference to the 0411 fits.
http://198.208.187.182/internet/Vehi...&part=12200411
I posted the 5.7 4L60E and 4L80E cals on http://www.monodax.com/forums/tunercat-files/ if you want them.
Bryan at PCMforless took the first cal I had that was for 5.7/4L80E and converted it to 4L60E trans before I later found that cal, so I guess you could copy the 4L80E stuff to a 4.3 cal file if you wanted to.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

My formula is running a built 4l60e and yes you can pick and choose whatever you want. At first jamy had my tune with a 5.7L and 4l80e on accident. The transmission was starting off in 4th gear, would lock up shift into 3rd then and then into 2nd and if you nailed it it would go back into 4th lock up and stall lol. Took us a day to figure out WTF we did wrong. once we inputed the 4l60e configuration it shifted normal then lol.

BTW if anybody is near the cleveland area and what to see how this is all setup and to take the cars for a run to see how "brand new" they drive let me know.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The first ECM I got was for a 5.7/4l80e.

The second I got, I flashed it with a 5.7/4l60e. It is actually controlling a 5.7/t5 after a few adjustments.


So:
4.3/4l60e
5.7/4l60e
5.7/4l80e
5.7/t56(with some work)
5.7/t5(with some work)

It should beable to control the 4l65 and 4l85 as that is tahoes and on the truck board some guys are using the 4l85.

This ecm is also what controls LS1 motors, and the 5.3l in the trucks. Very universal.

PonyKiller87

What has to be done to make it work with the t56 ? Thats the setup that I will be going with.

Scuzz, so your saying that for any engine file 4.3, or 5.7 you can switch the transmission part so a 4.3 with a 4L80e would be possible?

Any ideas on the 7.4 ? As part of another project I am looking at getting a 98 Pickup that has a 7.4 and the 4L80e and I would like to upgrade it to the 411 computer. I just looked at the list and the only BBC on there is the 8.1 which is more like an LS1 than a 7.4, the 8.1 runs coil packs and the same firing order as the LS1. Could a 5.7 tune be modified to handle a 7.4 ?

jwscab

you would need to modify (if an early big block), to use the vortec big block crank sensor, just like the small block. Then use the vortec distributor.

if it's already a vortec big block, you can just plug it all in, and adjust the cylinder volume and injector size (guessing, don't know how the new code gets configured for displacement).

tpiselli

iTrader: (1)

I'm putting together (albeit slowly) a 5.0/4l60e combination. That was one of the options for the 02 Express vans. I'm hoping to start putting together the motor this weekend; I'll try to post the progress as I go.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

So far with my t5, I have had to adjust desired idle which changes main ve.

Ive disabled almost every transmission option and/or adjusted everything in the trans section. I basically opened a LS1/T56 combo, and copied everything in the trans sections to my truck file. Then have tweaked a bit from there.

Ive also started in on the throttle follow, and cracker... and I'm sure more I havent even touched yet. I'm still learning.


IMO, for a 7.4.. grab the crap from the 8.1 and install. You would have to adjust injector settings, CI-displacement, main ve, desired idle, . I'm sure it can work, its just going to take some serious reprogramming. Hardest will be finding the definition file.. or making sure the pcm you get has the right program.

PonyKiller87

The 8.1 file won't work on the 7.4 it would be like trying to run a 5.7 sbc on the LS1 file. The 7.4 still used the sbc firing order and the same crank/cam sensor setup as the vortec 5.7 The 8.1 is coil pacs and the new firing order.

I will probably do like jwscab said and start with a 5.7 file and go from there.

What program do you guys use to edit all this stuff? EFI live?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

oh, ok. Didnt know that.

Then your problem will be a crank sensor, and dizzy that has the crank sensor in it. A BBC and SBC dont use the same TC cover and dizzy do they?

I use efilive. There are a few other programs as well.

PonyKiller87

I believe the TC cover is different but the Stock vortec BBC has one with the sensor in it. I think the dizzy is the same? either way stock vortec has the right one. Its just like the sbc swap even though you are using a computer from an 01 5.7 alot of the parts from the 96-00 vortec motors are the same.

Either way for the TC cover I am planning on taking a comp cams 2 piece aluminum cover and welding in a bung for the sensor rather than running the plastic cover.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Distributor is the same from an 8.1 5.7 and 4.3. Justins dizzy is from a 4.3 Astro van. All that needs to be changed is the cap. Rotor is the same. My camaros dizzy if from an 8.1

TC Cover is differant on all 3 blocks, 8.1 5.7 and 4.3

I use EFI Live

PonyKiller87

You mean 7.4 not 8.1 right? The 8.1 doesn't have a dizzy, it has this wierd looking part that just does the cam sensor, and then spark plugs go to coil packs not a dizzy.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

so i see a couple pages back that s10wildside was selling harnesses for $600 but i send him a couple P.M's about getting a harness and he seemed like he dont make them anymore so anyone else out there making them?

S10Wildside

Yes, he must have meant 7.4L as the 8.1L is a completely different engine that uses coil per cylinder rather than a distributor.

S10Wildside

We must have a misunderstanding. You mentioned that you would be interested in driving to Erie to see the system this spring/summer after I finished my S-10 and said you would bring your harness with you and asked me to show you how to modify it. You also mentioned purchasing any necessary connectors for the conversion. I explained that I currently do not have time to guide anyone through building their own harness while taking care of orders.

This is an appropriate place to mention that there is no shortcut to building this harness on your own. The best thing to do is study both the Camaro/Firebird wiring schematics for the car and the wiring schematics for the L31 Vortec engine. And after that ask questions. You need to clearly understand the conversion if doing it yourself. Having a software development backgound, I often think of this in a similar way. When digging into a program to make changes, you need to understand how it was written and its intent before making any changes.

obeymybird, I also thought you had plans to build your own harness when you wrote in your PM...
I'm still building these harnesses and the price has not yet changed. Two weeks ago I shipped an 88 Camaro 411 harness, last week I shipped an 89 Camaro 411 harness, and I currently have on order a build for a 92 Camaro 411 harness. Sometimes I'm a day or two behind in providing replies due to fulfulling orders that customers have already paid for.

I really enjoy helping with this conversion on the forum and by email (and will continue to help), but I must first help those who have paid for harnesses. They expect that and rightfully so.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Yup My bad.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

yeah i guess we have a misunderstanding but i will take the blame for that. when i sent you the P.M's i dint realize that you built the harness for $600 or made them at all anymore i was just fishing for some answers and help in those P.M's so im sorry its my fault for not reading all those pages of posts in the first place which is what i did yesterday morning which by the way keeped me up so long i oversleeped for work that night

S10Wildside

No problem. I didn't expect this thread to grow as it has. Hopefully in the upcoming months http://www.eficonnection.com will have streamlined information for this conversion so that people interested won't have to read through so many posts.

If you are interested in an engine harness, please email me at mike@eficonnection.com when you're ready and we can go through the details. I know you're swapping bodies right now, so I'll need to be aware of what you're doing for the dash wiring as that is very important.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

For anybody still reading and looking into this, Mike builds top notch harnesses. Worth every dollar.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

thanks Mike, if everything goes some what good i should be ready for a harness by mid summer at the latest. Now should i send out the ls1 pcm for a pre-tune before i try to fire it up? And is there any reason why i should have to change the throttle body or sensors? Do i have to run the ls1 MAF sensor for this thing to see boost when the turbo comes along? Now for the tough question i picked up a set of 39lb injecoters from a 03-04 cobra because i figured that 42's would be to big an 36's to small and got them for cheap but when they got here i found they use the new style plug which i went and bought them to now is there any reason Mike why i can't run these?