1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

OK just got back from the dyno. I will have to let the others post their results. Lets just say it was an interesting day with mixed results. We had problems getting the right program into the Moats Ostrich for my car. Made some pulls and things were getting better. The new combination clearly did not like some of the previous programs.

Finally Kevin installed a previous program known as number 8 and things started comming back to normal. With this pull it made around 349rwhp and 365rwtq. Back to square one as things had been going South with the bad valve springs from the previous dyno sessions. The interesting thing was now I have two power peaks. One around 5200rpm and another around 6000-6100rpm.

The peak power shown on the dyno was the one at 5200rpm but the graph was clearly showing the power rising again and going past 350rwhp at the 6000-6100rpm mark but that is also where the pull was stopped. 3rd tuning wave anyone?

So I told the dyno operator to take it to 6500rpm as I wanted to see where the power was going to fall off. Well around 6400rpm the drive shaft broke so that was the end of that.

The interesting thing was that the motor was still making good power at that rpm and not falling off much. Unfortunately he copied the wrong dyno pulls on my jumpdrive so I will have to wait until Monday to get the graph and data so I can post them and review them. Just going from memory for now.

So we did not get a chance to do any tuning at all. I don't think it would have gained much with tuning. Maybe another 5 to 10 horsepower at the very most. But it does prove that with a modified TPI you can make good power out to at least 6400rpm with not much of a fall off.

So I bet my average rwhp from say 5100 to 6400 will be around 340rwhp. So on to a custom 3" aluminum driveshaft. I wanted to see what the horsepower graph was going to look like before I install a 4L60E transmission. So with good power being made well into the 6000rpm range I will go ahead and install a modified 4L60E transmission. That way I can control the shift points exactly and have a transmission that will hold up at that rpm.

gmgod

If it's flat lining from 5000 to 6400, would'nt you be better off shifting @ about 5500 to get back close to the torque peak?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I have always gone by the theory that it is the most horsepower under the curve that wins races. I'm not sure where my peak torque is. Don has a special governor that we will install for the next dyno session. That will allow the dyno pull to be started earlier without downshifting into 2nd gear.

Here is the dyno graph and run file where it went to 6500rpm and that is exactly where the drive shaft broke. You can see it was still making 330rwhp at 6500rpm. With some tuning by leaning it out some it would probably go higher in that rpm range. With the broken drive shaft we were not able to do any tuning.

Azrael91966669

thats a weird power curve good numbers but i wonder what is causing the
all the ups and downs
did it down shift at 1st thats what it looks like for the start but the top end is kind of weird aswell

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

not bad, very interesting results. I was hoping to see more power but it does show good gains up to 6400 rpms. that shows its possible to keep 'TPI' going to high rpms

also surprised at the 5200 peak and the 6100+rpm rising. I would say its a tuning issue around that rpm range where it fell off after 5200 but maybe its a wave tuning thing goin on. I dont know

I do think leaning it out some after 6000 rpms would help maintain that power. It be interesting to see the numbers if the shaft wouldnt have broke. torque really starts to collapse after 5000 rpm tho but your still making 300wtq at 6000 rpms so thats not too shabby.

JB97C5

IMHO, I'd ride it out the way 1989GTATransAm was explaining with the curve. Besides, on the street, that car should create a lot of inertia and it would just build through those 1100-1300 r's. If the car hooks up well (I'm sure it does!), then it will move like a runaway missile.

BTW, thanks 1989GTATransAm for all of the posts and congrats on your hard work!

BadSS

The only way I can get EA to closely mirror this last curve as in the other dyno runs you've made is to restrict the exhaust to 900cfm (red). Changing it to 1200 cfm (green),, it adds about 16chp at 5400 and smoothes the curve out. Now,, that doesn't mean that the "problem" still might lay with the intake somehow,,, but I swear I'd upcap that sucker before the cats next time on the dyno.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the replys. I have been away from my computer for awhile.

BadSS: The 3 1/2" Mufflex got whacked pretty good by the drive shaft. So we will have to replace the straight section from the wye to where it starts to turn up over the rear axle. I think this time we will take a hard look at the catalytic converters. We wire probed them last time and they seemed to be intact. By the way Thank You for all that you have done for me.


We were not datalogging the last two runs as Kevin was looking for the last good program that we did to put in the Ostrich. Anyways after looking things over and a day to think about it I think I was getting spark retard somewhere around 5200rpm. Then around 5600rpm the timing started comming back in. We shall see on the next go around if that is true. Things are on the lean side around peak torque and that would contribute to knock and then of course the spark retard.

Maybe if the exhaust is a problem and getting that fixed along with tuning I might be able to squeak into the 360rwhp range on this dyno. However we will most likely be on the other dyno for the next pulls. This one seems more stingy than the new dyno. The guys thought the new dyno was stingy. Stay tuned.

One more thing I will not mind trading a little low end power for some top end power. Last time at the track I was still having problems getting a good hook with my MT ET street radials. However it does not look like I lost much torque down low.

EDIT: One more thing. I checked some of my old datalogging from the track. When the car shifts from 1-2 the rpms drop around 1525 rpm. When the car shifts from 2-3 the rpms drop around 1325rpm. So to get the most horsepower under the curve I would need to shift in the 6300 to 6400rpm range. The nice thing about going to the 4L60E is I can program in the shift points and see what the car likes the best.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Good deal, sounds like you have abit more in that setup if it is indeed restricted in the exhaust and getting spark retard from knock.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

For those of you who like looking at these things I have combined dyno runs 24 and 25 on the same graph. Looking at the end of dyno run 24 you can see the power was climbing pretty good when we shut off the run.

That is why I wanted to have him take the next run to 6500rpm to see what was happening in the upper rpms. Also the air fuel ratio is slightly better in run 24 for some reason. Nothing was done as the pull was made right away without letting the motor cool off any. Here is the graph with peak power made at 6100rpm.

JulieGTA

I've been waiting to hear about the dyno Allen, its great to know somebody is working on this... I've learned a ton just trying to follow what you're doing.

I'm sorry to hear about your driveshaft, but glad it didn't happen at the track!

I agree with the cut out exhaust, (even if they aren't legal,) just to have a control test, but I thought the hi-flo cats weren't supposed to interfere too much?
(On the other hand there was Alex's )

Also it was a very sticky weekend.

Burnout91

Allen, where did the D/S fail? Yoke, U-joint.......? -Bill

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Bill

The car is still over at the dyno shop. I'm going to meet the tow truck driver there at 10:30am and have it taken over to DynoDon's. At this time we are not quite sure what happened.

There is maybe an 18" section of drive shaft that twisted off from the transmission end with part of the u-joint. The other portion is still attached to the rear end. So we are not quite sure if it just twisted or maybe a yoke/u-joint faliure. Should have an answer this afternoon.

I talked to Don this morning and we will take the exhaust system down and have a good look at the catalytic converters and look for any obstructions. The 3.5" Mufflex exhaust took a big hit so it will have to be repair it anyways.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Update: Could be that the balance weight came off the driveshaft and things went South after that. What we are going to do is put in straight sections of tubing in place of the catalytic converters for dyno testing only to see what the difference is.

We took down the exhaust for a rebuild. Attached is a picture of the catalytic converters. One is intact and the other has been blown through the middle and what is left is sealed do to the melting. I'm sure it probably affects the air flow somewhat just not sure how much. Here is the picture.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ouch thats nasty! test pipes should show some gains

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It definetly is not a clean flow going through the one cat. Kinda reminds me of the analogy of having a lip on the intake going into the head. I would think there would be some eddy currents disrupting the flow somewhat. Just not sure how much. Some of the exhaust would be hitting the "brick wall" portion of what remains of the substrate and disturbing the flow.

Also the part of the substrate that was blown away is somewhat jagged and I would think that would affect the flow versus a smooth surface as it passes over it. The next dyno session will be at the new facility so it won't be exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Do you ever plan to race this car at a track to get some track times to compare to the dyno figures?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes. I have signed up for the F-Body invasion at the end of May. This is going to be a private track rental at California Raceway in Fontana. Probably be mostly 4th gens with others scattered in.

I think we will give them a good run for their money and surprise quite a few with our lowly 3rd gens. We should have a number of 12 second 3rd gens on hand.

I don't know how many of us would be ready to go sooner. I will just work on getting my car ready.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Only because his cats are bad, not because the cats are restricting power any significant amount. I just had to clarify that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yep thats what i was refering too.

govenorcamaro

iTrader: (2)

any updates yet I know this is a old thread

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The intake system was showing great potential from the dyno pulls. As stated I'm in the process of building up another motor to take full advantage. It will probably be 4 or 5 months before any testing will be done. I expect to exceed 400rwhp. By how much will be the question.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

So these runners/base will not be modified any more for the new motor? just new larger motor with bigger cam correct?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes on the runners, plenum and intake system. They will stay the same except for my new cold air intake which I have posted on. By the way as you know I flowed 301CFM on port one and with the change in cross sectional area I extrapolated the numbers and would expect the CFM to now be around 320.

Basic changes will be the new AFR 195 Competition heads, bigger Mike Jones custom camshaft 233/233, new Dart SHP short block with 369 cubic inches, increase compression from 10.72 to 11.2 and some tweaking of the exhaust system with the exhaust termination boxes.

Can't forget the new 4L60E transmission. That might go in at the end of the month depending on Dyno Don's schedule. I have signed up for the F-Body Los Angeles Invasion on Memorial Day and will give the current motor one more shot and see if I can't cut some time off my current best.

I will turn on my signature for those interested.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Interesting, he spec'd that for my turbo 383 or 400 motor that car should fly

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Orr, your car is the one that is going to fly. My Jones cam is on 113 centers to better pass California smog. Yours may be on something similiar or even more of a spread for forced induction.

I almost forgot the new AFR Rev kit, LS-7 lifters and the 1.65 rocker arms to take full advantage of the high flow of the AFR heads. Got to be able to keep the valve train stable to 7000 rpm just incase.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what lobes are you on? Dont you run the 55mm ls1 cam tunnel? Mine is his base hydraulic roller lobe, not any of his lsx or extreme lobes

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

How much have you spend on your car i want mine to have that power to beat my friends V6 supercharged mustang i have a 350 tpi with only ported runners,plenum and edelbrock manifold.

Long Beach Z-28

iTrader: (1)

"How much have you spent on your car, I want mine to have that power."

Yea 1989GTATransAm, Thats a GREAT question, How much $$$$!

See ya this week.

Pat

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Orr

I was toying with the idea of going with the 55mm camshaft in the Dart block but Mike said the standard cam will get the job done. So a standard SBC cam core it is.

"Yea 1989GTATransAm, Thats a GREAT question, How much $$$$!"

The great pot stirrer has spoken. Just ask my wife how much I have spent on the car. NOT!

David 91RS/Z28

Nice setup in the works there! You might consider going with a split pattern on that new cam your planning. Say about 8-10 degrees difference as it will work better with the CA exhaust you have. Also, have you thought about the 210cc heads? Even more potential hp. It's not like you will be lacking in the torque department! Good luck though and keep us up to date with the new setup as it sounds killer!

Russ-So Cal

I don't think his wife has any idea how much beyond "a lot," and I doubt he really wants to put any numbers out in public where she might find out!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Russ is right.

I'm currently running a single pattern 228/228 camshaft. With the Dyno Don exhaust system I can assure you there is very little in the way of back pressure. My AFR 195 Competition heads flow 290 cfm at .500" lift, 302 cfm at .550" lift and 306" at .600" lift. I think that will do the job plus the throttle response will be better with the 195 head versus the 210. This is a street car as we do club cruises in the 300 mile range. Got to have AC in the summer.

Pat, hope to see you this week.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hehehehe. I just noticed which thread this is. Yes there are updated results under this post.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...lp-runner.html

David 91RS/Z28

Without a doubt your plans ought to work pretty well as you proved it with the 355. Shoot, I'd like to see what the newer heads/cam combo would do on the 355...with some long tubes!! Deeeeeamn!! I've wanted to tinker with my current setup again to see how much more I can get, I just got to get motivated to even work on it!

I think you can take crown for having the highest reving LTR setup though.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

So around how much

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

At this point in time I'm North of $5000. It takes what it takes. I'm not even going to add it all up when I'm done.

pandin

These cars are built with Money, Knowledge, and Time.

The more of one you have the less of the others you need.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

Thang thats alot i think i am going to sell mine and buy a SS instead to show him real power or how hard is it to put a LS1 in a third gen

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i have abit more than that in my old 383 setup and you will be right around my level if not past with less inches! And my stuff wasnt worked over like yours, just a mild port not a full blown custom fab job like those SLP runners to that First base. Its worth it tho, a strong reliable motor is money well spent

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I think how well the exhaust termination boxes work will determine how far past 400rwhp I can go. If they are worth 30 horsepower than we are talking quite abit past. If they are worth only 5 horsepower than not so much.

skinny z

Being carbureted I don't relate to the EFI so much although I do appreciate all the R&D you've done and enjoy seeing the results.
What I'll really enjoy, as you can probably guess, is your planned experiments with the termination boxes.
By all accounts you should see that 30 hp with a well designed system.
Keep up the good work.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I'm using Pipemax, David Vizard and others who have built them as guidance. So I'm hoping they will turn out right. The 30 horsepower would be nice. That is roughly the difference on DynoSim between a tuned exhaust and one that is not tuned. I'm hoping it will be sometime this Summer when we find out. Right now the hold up is the machine shop with the shortblock.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

What you run on the 1/4 mile mine does 15.6

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That car will be scary quick IF those boxes do give some power. Even if only 10hp, i can see that combo pulling 410whp. Thats abit more than my old setup and i went mid 11's.... haha. NOw if it gives 20-30 hp, you may be in the 420-430's range... Thats knocking on 10's in a light car with the right gear/stall. Not bad for a smog legal car

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I have run a best of 12.29@110.96 so far. Going to the track on Memorial day and I should best that time. If I'm real lucky and good weather a 12.10 might be in the cards. Going to be running the Hoosier drag radial this time around.

Hi Orr

I figure right now it would not be a problem to put down 375rwhp SAE. I have done some calculations of what might be. The 1/2 point in compression should be worth 10hp. The increase in cubes plus the cam should be an easy 15hp. The AFR 195 Competition heads could be worth 15hp over my current heads. The 1.65 roller rocker arms should be worth a couple.

Then the things that are hard to calculate. Like the 44 pound aero crankshaft with the 2.0" rod bearings. The much lighter Mahle pistons with the 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 mm rings and the 6.125" rods all for less friction and rotating weight. The Dart block with all the proper measurements such as the lifter bores and camshaft tunnel. 1 or 2 horsepower here and there and maybe 10 more.

Then add the 5 to 30 horsepower from the termination boxes and upgraded exhaust. Can't forget my new and improved CAI. Anyways fun to surmise on what might be.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I didnt think of that. Proper bore 'roundness' and stronger block itself will get rid of the blowby you can see from flexing stock blocks and make chamber pressures much higher. That will free up some good power.

Lighter assembly will spin/rev faster and probly cut down on windage/oil splashing resistance. thats a few ponies for sure.

Should be very very interesting

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

You're dreaming if you think you're going to buy a Camaro SS with an LS1, or put an LS1 in your thirdgen, and run faster than 12.29, for $5000 or less.

Speed costs money, how fast can you afford?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I agree with Kevin. You would have to do a head/cam on the LS1. Just sticking one in a 3RD Gen might net you a low 13 second car. Then what would you use to control it? Maybe this thread using the 0411 computer.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...-opinions.html

The dollars keep adding up.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

1989 gta what kind of work was done on your Dart Pro 1's?I was looking at these for my 383 build.