Ok I'm new here and I am sorry to say I do not have a Camaro. But I do a have Nova and I am wanting to convert over to TPI. And I I figure if anyone knows which manifold would work best it would be you guys. I'm not to sure in the different ones or if I know of all of them. But what are the designed RPM ranges for all of the TPI manifolds? Btw I want to put in on a 11:1 early sixties small journal 327 w/ some mildy ported double hump heads. Thanks for any help

 

Well, since you have a pre 1987 set of heads, they have a different manifold mounting pattern than a set of heads 87+. I know Accel's manifold will work. The determining factor of the TPI's RPM Range, after the manifold, is the runners (Kind of a package deal). The stock engine makes peak horse around 4800. With the addition of an aftermarket manifold (they are all pretty much the same)RPM range may extend to 5200. With some High flow runners, maybe 5500. This numbers are just an educated guess. From the numbers I have seen, peak power is still made around 4800 rpm all cases considered. People looking for high RPM potential usually opt for the Mini-ram from TPIS which makes insane power gains above 5000 RPM, but really gives up a lot of power below 4800 to a High flow Long tube runner setup. The Super Ram is a good compromise between the two, but a pain to install.

Manifolds:
Edelbrock $350, Accel $389, TPIS $475
Arizona Speed and Marine might also have one?
My Vote: Accel

Runners:
Accel, SLP, TPIS, AS&M.
My Vote: AS&M

------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

Well the Pre 87 heads deal is no problem. I am assuming you can just drill out the center to bolt holes on the manifold. What about LS1 or LT4 manifolds? I know some of them are made for front drive distributers, but I have also seen them drilled out to accept a remote coil distributer, and also have coolant lines drilled out in the front and use a remote distributor. I'm looking for pretty much a GM setup though but thanks for the reply.

 

The LS1 manifold will not fit, its totally different and nothing at all lines up. The LT1 manifold takes some extensive mods to work.

As for TPI, peak power stock is more like 4400rpm not 4800. Also, the TPIS base is just a ported Edelbrock. The Edelbrock and Accel bases are basically the same.

 

I pretty much agree with above... to summarize.

Based upon a 10.5-1 cr 383 with a good matching cam and good flowing AFR 190 heads you would approxmiatly have:

Stock TPI: 370 hp @ 4500 rpm, 440 ftlbs @ 3200 rpm

Aftermarket Large Tube runners and aftermarket intake manifold: 390 hp @ 4800 rpm and 450 ftlbs @ 3400 rpm.

Superram base, plenum and runners: 440 hp @ 5400 rpm 480 ftlbs @ 3800 rpm

Miniram : (With an agressive Hyd roller cam) 480 hp @ 6000 rpm and 450 ftlbs @ 4500 rpm.

These are approxmiate and average #'s... of course they can vary higher or lower depending on the selected components. The Miniram can really vary though considering its torque curve generated is fairly close to what a single plane + carb would generate. The MR can actually make 500 hp and maybe even more if you go solid roller and great flowing heads. Whereas the Superram is more capped around 480 HP depending on cubes and heads, however its low to mid range torque would be stronger. The MR responds great to lots of gear and stall, the other 3 choices do not require much. 2500-3000 rpm stalls and 3.07 - 3.45 gears would easily make the first 3 happy. The MR would love 3000 plus stall and 3.73-4.11 gears.

good luck
Todd


[This message has been edited by Todd85 (edited October 05, 2001).]

 

The determining factor of the TPI's RPM Range, after the manifold, is the runners,... and the cam, and the exhaust,.... it's kind of a package deal.

With the addition of an aftermarket manifold (they are all pretty much the same)RPM range may extend to 5200,... with some siamesed-runners and a big cam. The manifold bases may look the same, but there is measurable differences in the inlet and outlets.

From the numbers I have seen, peak power is still made around 4800 rpm all cases considered. I'd be interested to see those numbers, cuz from what I've seen the peak hp is closer to 4000 rpm(Chevy rates peak output at 4400, but even that is suspect on a 350: knowing the TPI system was designed for the 305 and knowing Chevy's history of underrating peak hp).

Intake................. length ........port in --- out
Stock GM Base---- 6.375"------1.47"- 1.96x1.2
Edelbrock Base--- 6.125"------1.615"- ???
TPiS base---------- 6.125"------1.75"- 2.09x1.28
Accel base--------- 6.125"------1.75"- 2.09x1.28


As mentioned before, the TPI was designed for a 305. Using stock pieces, it would have a difficult time supplying a 383. If you have '62 - 67 Chevy II(aka Nova), you really don't need the low-end torque of a long-runner TPI, but you would want the the better top-end of a short-runner(aka Mini-Ram or SuperRam)(imo).

I take it by the 11:1 compression and cast-iron heads this will be a strip-only build-up?

[This message has been edited by 88IROCs (edited October 06, 2001).]

 

#1.Alright, let's say you have a 224/230 cam and a stock tpi intake, which one defines your RPM range? I think it's gonna be the intake, what do you think? The camshaft for the tpi was designed to complement the runners, not the runners designed to complement the cam. Therefore, you buy the camshaft after you have decided on the intake pieces.
#2. Here are some flow #'sRunners
stock tpi 203cfm
Accel large tube 242 cfm
Extrude honed Accel 275 cfm
SuperRam 289

BAse manifolds
stock 222 cfm
Accel 251 cfm
Accel extrude 276 cfm
Edelbrock perf RPM dual plane 286

A different Test

Stock base, Accel runners 213.5 cfm
Accel base, stock runners 215.8 cfm
Accel base, Accel runners 232.5 cfm
Accel base, Accel Super Ram 240.2 cfm
Accel base, extruded Accel runners 243.2 cfm
Extruded Accel base & runners 266.9 cfm

There is a discussion here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/004404.html

And here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/002943.html

#3. According to John Lingenfelter, the 350 is limited to about 4800 rpm (I am referencing the post "TPI Sucks")
How about this reference? Would you like some dyno numbers?

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...MRwebpage.html

You want a little more?
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000986.html

or even...

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/004355.html

You can find all the info you need to know in links from these pages.

All I have to say to you, 88IROCs is one fat
boo-yah. If you need any more guidance, just give me a post and I'll help you out.

------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

Internet references for proof are flimsy at best. I personally threw the book out the window of what is supposed to be correct and what rules you are supposed to obey, and picked up more power. There is no magic setup that you would be able to determine from sitting at your desk, ever, unless you are Albert Einstein... and something tells me youre not him.

 

Do you believe dyno numbers? Do you believe Traxion's dyno numbers? You have spent your day hunting down my posts and commenting on them. Cool down, bud. What does your car run?

 

Traxions car isnt stock.

The "proof" listed in this post isnt a stock engine either:
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000986.html

If you are looking for "proof" with engines that arent stock, I have a dyno sheet that shows peak at 4800 too, but stock its not 4800 which is what I said and is what 88IROC said. You will also notice that in that post he was running a different base, runners, and cam and it still choked at less than 5000. I could tell you why if you'd like to know.

[This message has been edited by madmax (edited October 09, 2001).]

 

i get so sick of hearing "according to john lingenfelter this, lingenfelter that" for back up. wow, the man knows how to build a engine, and has people build engines for him. hooray. i have a feeling if he shoved a stick up his a*s you would too.

 

Where to start? OK, being that the
name of the post is RPM ranges for TPI MANIFOLDS, I felt it was unnecessary to include information on camshaft and exhaust selection. We are assuming here that all else is optimized. This idea is really a fallacy because, ideally, a camshaft and exhaust would not be subject to limited RPM ranges, and would function optimally at all points. This doesn't happen, so we are left with what works best. I think a fairly good example of a long tube runner set-up is one such as Kevin91Z. Over 300 horse, and a 1/4 @ 107! Traxion's old Setup was also pretty respectable, follow the link above to see that.

#2. Aftermarket manifold are pretty much the same. What do we have, three choices?
TPIS buy's their manifold from Edelbrock.
They do some gasket matching, and turn out a $500 dollar manifold. Unless you have jagged chunks of casting shutting off your head's intake port, for the most part,Gasket matching provides a minimal HP gain. based on this, I am inclined to say that the edelbrock and tpis bases are nearly the same. Now, the TPIS vs. Accel Base, I don't really know. Of the cars I have seen run, there doesn't seem to be a propensity of cars running abnormally fast with one intake or another. Traxion ran in the mid 12's with LTR's and a TPIS Bigmouth, and there are cars all over running low 12's with stock super ram bases. These facts, combined with the prevailing ideology that all bases are pretty much the same (as madmax previously stated)lead me to believe that this is the case. You are going to have to generate some actual flow numbers to change my mind. I also think siamesed runners are junk. Show me a few really fast cars with them, and I'll change my mind.

#3. Long tube runners make peak horse around 4800. I said it. Here are some more dyno numbers. Some are stock. Some are not. Todd85 is also backing that up above.


Dyno testing of a Mini-ram vs. TPI
(The TPI currently consists of 58mm TB, fully ported plenum, AS&M large tube runners, and highly ported Edelbrock base)
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...2/webpage.html

Dyno Don
91 Z-28 best ET=13.24 MPH=107.18
Dynoed 278 HP@4800
335 TQ to the RW @3400
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/001610.html

Peak Power Occuring around 4500-4600
L98-383, 700-r4, 3.23, 9.8:1, ZZ4 cam, stock base, large tubes, MAP car, stock intake y-pipe, 1 3/4 headers, cat-back, 58mmTB, 92 octane.
http://www.delanet.com/~tgp/89iroc/Dynospage.html

Here's two on the same board. One by our beloved madmax.
https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/001492.html
Stock 88TPI intake from the TB to the base, totally untouched cept for some dents in the runners I attempted to fix.
237.0hp@4900, 266.5tq@3500. Pathetic, especially for what this car should be putting out. Came across some problems on the dyno

Finish;
85 TPI base, siamesed. The rest, including everything else on the engine (that includes timing, fuel, etc) are the same as the first test. Finish; 256.8hp@4860, 281.7tq@4000
Notice how, on madmax's dyno run, peak power "before" is at …. 4800 RPM

Hey, a stock tpi with peak power at 4600:
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...2/webpage.html

I'm not claiming to be Einstein, I'm just saying that I've done my homework. I think that pretty much takes care of it unless you have some hard evidence to refute your argument.



------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102

 

The TPI induction system 'supposedly' was designed to take advantage of accoustic resonance so that fill would be optimized below 5000 RPM and fall off sharply above that number. This seems to to be born out by the posts above. In other words, you are stuck with the 4800 to 5000 barrier because of the way the manifold was intentionally designed.

Changing plenum size (larger) and runner length (shorter) will move the maximum hp higher in rpm at the expense of lower rpm torque. This is what the after market designs do.

I've encountered one site (in Italy of all places) which mathematically models these types of induction systems. The numbers from GM's stock TPI produce pretty much the same results.

GM went away from the resonant design with the LT1. However, GM went back to a resonant design with the LS1.

 

This is the only claim of yours I am calling incorrect. All of the engines you listed have been modified to some extent, some more than others, but none are near stock. You said it yourself, "stock engine." On a "stock engine" the peak is anywhere from 4000-4400 depending on the particular application.

The usual 4800rpm limit, wall, whatever you want to call it that everyone finds on their application after its been modified should give you a pretty good idea of what sort of heads (read:small port) and cam (read:limited RPM range) you should choose when running the TPI as it sits. The range is 2500 (maybe on a real good day) to 4800. Thats a pretty small range no matter how you look at it. Its also limiting enough that it will choke most larger engines like a 383 or 400, which is really unfortunate but thats how it goes.

[This message has been edited by madmax (edited October 10, 2001).]

 

By a post referenced above
Stock 88TPI intake from the TB to the base, totally untouched cept for some dents in the runners I attempted to fix.
237.0hp@4900
266.5tq@3500

By Todd85
Stock TPI: 370 hp @ 4500 rpm, 440 ftlbs @ 3200 rpm


If anyone has dyno'ed their bone stock TPI Please post the results here. Bone stock means not so much as a 160* thermostat or rapid fire plugs or K&N filters.
What else do I have to do to convince you?

 

I guess you arent reading my posts. Stock ENGINE and stock INTAKE are 2 entirely different things.

 

nothing. nothing at all. as a matter of fact, you cant force your opinion on anyone else. keep it to yourself. your whining is getting old, fast.

[This message has been edited by u r sofa king we tah did (edited October 11, 2001).]

 

so basically we are not getting anywhere with this post until the base perameters are established...

a 383 will demand more air than a 350... that is what is screwing this all up... the greater the volume of air demanded by the displacement of the enginge will drop the peak power down on a given tpi setup ...

if we can find some numbers for a 350 and a resonable cam and head combo to compare these intakes I beleive that will help us come to a better conclusion and less confusion or miscommunication...

zroc

 

Madmax, you're right. I mis-spoke. I meant to say the stock Intake. I thought that since it was a discussion dealing with intake that the arguement would end after the intake manifold. The stock engine, just an opinion, is more limited in RPM range by the cam, exhaust, etc.. than the rest of the intake in bone stock form. However, with the engine "optimized", with a decent cam, heads, exhaust, I am still maintaining that peak power is going to come in about 4800.

Sofa King: Who are you? Unless you have something of value to contribute, not that your John Lingenfelter comment didn't hold infinite technical significance, shut it or go make a few more posts on the car audio board.

 

And with that I agree

 

ive noticed you have been provoking crap in several threads, and im tired of seeing it. why dont you take yourself back to the car audio board. sorry but no matter what your knowledge of cars and engines is due to reading internet claims, ill always be smarter.

 

OK, so madmax and TPI guy are lovey dovey, and now the sofa king is trying to regulate.
Damnit kids, play nice