I've been researching the AFR 180 Street Eliminator Heads for my car. I've been able to figure out most of what I need except the head gasket, intake gasket, & these damn 1.6 rocker arms.

Engine: 355 SBC
Cam: Comp 08-302-8 hyd roller, 210/220 @ .050, .480/.480 lift, 112 LSA
Intake: port matched TPI from 52mm TB thru ASM runners

My Issues:
1) I've read to stay away from aluminum 1.6 full rollers. Ok. The problem I have is AFR recommendns AGAINST the Pro Magnums which leave me with what? I cannot find steel 1.6 full rollers anywhere. I've looked into Scorpions (aluminum, lifetime warranty) and the noisy stainless arms. I need a couple recommendations.

2) As far as the intake gasket goes, there are no specs on the port size of the heads. AFR recommends FP 1256 (1.99x1.23). I was looking at the Mr G 5820 (2.00x1.25). I'd like to port match my manifold to the heads. Is either gasket going to suit my need more than the other? I'm leaning toward the Mr G for the bigger port.

3) The head gasket has left my head spinning. AFR recommends the FP 1003 (.041/4.166) I've calculated/estimated a few gaskets. The constants I used are: 65cc volume, 5.000 pist head vol, 4.040 cyl bore, .025 deck clearance (Jasper could not give me a number, so I used "stock"), 3.480 stroke, 5.700 rod length, 33* intake closing. That said, here's what I calculated:

FP 1010 .039 thickness/4.166 gask bore/9.709 Stat Comp Rat/9.206 Dyn CR
FP 1003 .041/ 4.166/ 9.664/ 9.164
FP 1143 .040/ 4.165/ 9.687/ 9.206
MRG5800 .038/ 4.130 / 9.749/ 9.244
MRG3131G.040/ 4.125/ 9.704/ 9.201
SCE61114 .0395/ 4.140/ 9.709/ 9.206

I was shooting for 10:1 CR or less. I'd like to have your opinions on which head gasket and compression ration would work best for me. My choice is either FP 1010 or SCE 61114.

4) My Superram manifold. I am planning on getting the PN 916 heads which are for pre-87 manifolds. They have the straight plug (read: headache eliminator). My Superram manifold DOES have the dual bolt pattern, no? I am seeing correctly?

Thanks to all who reply.
Eric

 

In addition to that, I am going to have the car dyno-tuned shortly after I get done. Is a chip re-burn necessary immediately or can i drive it around for a couple weeks?

 

Here are my thoughts.

That cam has low lift for the head. I would get something with higher lift to take good advantage of the AFR heads. You are leaving a lot of free power on the table.

1) Aluminum roller rockers are fine. Don't believe everything you read. The Scorpion roller rockers are very good for the money. The Pro Mags will work if you have them. What AFR is saying is that they are heavy for high rpm use. They would be fine for what your intended use is.

2) I would use the gasket recommended by AFR. You will gain very little if anything with a port match in your case. There are bigger fish to fry with the intake manifold itself around the fuel injector pinch and runners if you so desired.

3. Wait until you get the block from Jasper and actually measure where the piston sits in relation to the block deck. Personally with the excellant AFR heads I would shoot for around 10.5:1 compression ratio or no more than a 8.5:1 DCR. I think there is something wrong with your dynamic compression ratio calculator or else you need a bigger duration camshaft.

The SuperRam intake manifold I have has the bolts holes for either intake bolt style.

 

Thank you 89GTA. Let me reply by clearing up a couple things. I thought I'd try posting the minimal, guess I needed to post more.

The cam has a .480 lift now, when I switch to 1.6, that will jump to around .512. Max lift on the 1.290 springs is .600.My TPI is ported as I said, but I am using the AS&M large tube;, they fit perfectly the ported Superram manifold. I'm hoping to maximize the TPI's flow into the 180/65 head.

I have since opted to use the stock intake gasket. I may (or may not) port match the intake manifold to the heads. Depends on what I see when it comes apart. I also have been told to just wait and measure on the head gasket, which is what I am going to do.

The CR I posted were incorrect. I found a better calculator than spoke to me in English and I got mid 9's static and low 8's dynamic. I am shooting for the .040 quench.

Do you run aluminum rocker arms? I can't speak either way as I have the stamped variety. Most every post I have read says to stay away from AL arms. AFR actually said the Pro Mags are too wide, they din't mention high RPM use. If anyone is running Pro Mags and Street Eliminator heads, please speak up and make this easy for me.

Thanks again 89GTA, all replies welcome.

 

I recently purchased some AFR 195's and AFR reccommened Crane Gold Alum. Roller Rockers or Harland Sharp Alum. in 1:6 for my 383. Have not finished build, donot know how well they work yet.

 

Yes, you will need a custom tune.

Arguably you have some of the finest heads one can buy. I still think the cam you are looking at is not the best to take advantage of the AFR heads. If you already have the cam then maybe look into 1.65 ratio rocker arms.

As to the compression ratio I don't know what octane gasoline you are planning on using. The AFR heads have a modern combustion chamber with a dual quench pad. Combine that with a .040" quench you should be able to run a 10.5:1 compression ratio with no problems at all.

Between the cam and compression ratio you are leaving some free horsepower on the table.

I'm currently runnning the 1.6 Pro Mags. I have run aluminum rocker arms in the past with no problem. With my new motor I'm going to Harland Sharp 1.65 aluminum rocker arms on the intake side. Staying with the 1.6 Pro Mags on the exhaust seeing as I already have them. Believe me there is no problem running a quality aluminum rocker arm. In fact Comp Cams has come out with a new line of aluminum rocker arms. Don't believe everything you read in the magazines as they have advertisers to please.

Regarding the weight issue of the Pro Mags I got that info from Tony Mamo of AFR.

 

i got promags on my AFR's and i've reved t 6800 rpms several times with no problems. car peaks at 6300 i shift by 6500. pro mags are fine but regular mags are hard to beat for the price.

they arent too wide either they fit just fine. I'm running 195 eliminators by the way

the promags are actually as light as aluminum rockers at the area that sits over the valve. the weight is concentrated in the middle around the fulcrum. So it shouldnt hurt any valve dynamics at high rpm due to excessive weight

you get up near 10 to 1 with that cam and you'll love it. keep compression high with aluminum heads. that will build low end power but you wont have a problem with that due to the TPI setup

should be a stout motor. I agree tho about cam lift, get as much as you can. they make that cam in a high lift version i do believe, .510 with a 1.5. those heads will love .550-.575 lift


Gaskets, i'd run regular felpro 1205 but do not port match to it.

 

Orr89 & 89GTA (we all love our 89's huh?!) Thank you both for the replies.

GTA, I have been running this engine for almost 3 years now as a weekend warrior & showcar. The cam came in the engine so I am inclined to stick with it. But I do hear what you are saying. If I was going to build form scratch, I would have gone a bit more aggressive. This is a head swap from the pushrods on out. I will be running 93 octane gas (always!)

Orr, do you have centerbolt valve covers? I need to call AFR again, it seems everyone that has Eliminators has Pro Mags (although I seem to be the only one running 180s, mostly due to my cam and RPM range). I really want to run a full roller in steel, but don't relish the idea of paying $400 for stainless; not to mention the weight gain. I have made the mental downgrade to a roller tip like the CC 1416s if needbe. They are steel (not stamped crap) and 1.6. And thank you for the engine compliment.

 

Heck with 93 octane you could go to 11.00:1 with the AFR heads. 10.5:1 would be plenty safe. I have no problem with my Pro Mags and center bolt valve covers.

 

i got tall centerbolt valve covers. pro mags i guess dont fit under stock centerbolts but the mags will fit under them.

i dont think you'll notice a big difference in rockers. I'd run the mags myself on that setup since they are such a good deal. pro mags are nice but are only necessary for superior strength on stout valve springs and cams with high lift that want to rev up. AFR 8017 springs are good springs with some strong specs, but that cam lift will not fully see the max pressure those springs are capable of applying. You will be fine with regular comp mag roller tip rockers

 

Orr, did you have to upgrade to the ARP 7104 taller studs to run the Pro Mags?

I'd love to run 11:1! Only the teardown will tell.

 

I called AFR again today to get my self straight on the 1.6RR issue. Let me first say I am not disagreeing with anyone's prior experience. Nor am I looking to buy the wrong product and have to wait for new stuff to get here.

I have gotten more than a couple posts stating that my weenee cam isn't worth the 1.6s. Point taken but the less friction, higher lift, and cooler oil temp is good enough for me. Plus it may make my little cam feel like a big boy!

I spoke with Jeremy; very nice guy and answered all my questions- even when I asked the same question twice to make sure I got my shyte straight. Basically , he said that (for my 180s) I need to stay away from anything Comp due to the design and weight. The Pro Mags (or the stainless or the Mags) are too heavy putting to much weight on the nose which will cause valve float at higher RPM, sacrificing some HP as well. What really struck me was that he RECOMMENDED (thank you 89GTA) aluminum (Crane Gold or Harland Sharp) due to the fact that my 1.290 springs won't be putting enough pressure on the rockers to cause fatigue.

I also got an email response from AFR: "We have seen the Pro Magnums hit the valve spring or retainer from time to time so I would not suggest them. Any other aluminum roller rocker is going to be a safe bet. We don’t have a particular recommendation, just run what ever you feel fits your budget. If you have any other questions feel free to ask"

GTA, your point is taken about the AL arms. However that still seems to be a minority opinion on these here boards. I'm now no longer considering the roller tips and am back to full rollers, maybe even aluminum. I'm stumped here, this is not a daily driver and only sees 4500 RPM (I have yet to see a need for 5500 on the street) a few times a month.

Also worth noting, 1.65s would give me .525, still w/in the spring's ability of .600. Would that even be worth my time? The HS 1.65 $14 more. If I could please elicit a few more opinions on this issue I'd appreciate it then I will put it to bed.

...dazed and confused...

 

i did go with arp studs but 7/16 inch instead of AFR 3/8" supplied ones. they are about the same height tho. works fine

I'm not sure why AFR states they are too heavy. I didnt see valve float on the dyno but my springs are stout! lol I have heard promags are lighter over the nose of the valve stem than aluminum rockers which may not be true but the difference would be marginal.

as far as lift, i'd get as much as you can anyway you can do it AFR's want lift, so get some!

 

I agree with Orr. Get the 7/16" stud versions and get the 1.65:1 rocker arms. Replacement studs are not that expensive. You need to torque the rocker arms studs in your heads anyways.

Regarding the aluminum rocker arms I guess some people are still behind the times or have bought into the Comp Cams propaganda. There are any number of high end engine builders that use aluminum rocker arms. Joe Sherman for one. GM sells them in their Performance Parts Catalog. Scorpion, Harland Sharp, Comp Cams latest version and Crane are some good ones.

 

I think I am sold on the HS 1.65s, but what's the need or difference from 3/8 to 7/16 stds?

 

7/16 is stronger than 3/8 and less flexible so you get more valve train stability

for you and that build you probly wont see the spring pressure or rpm to worry about it. 3/8 will be fine but you can never go wrong with larger parts

 

Reading back through your post Orr is probably right. I keep forgetting about your camshaft. With the slower acceleration rate of your camshaft 3/8" rocker arms studs will not hurt things that much.

 

another thing about the head gaskets. do try to measure how far down in the bore the pistons are. Try to size the gasket so that the deck clearance plus the gasket is in the .040 range. .035-.045 will work fine for best power and less detonation. you probly wont have problems if you go alittle more and use good fuel and decent tune

 

Ok, so lets say I go for the cam swap too. The principle behind a TPI cam, or so I have read, is "less duration, more lift", right? Do I want more intake or exhaust lift? How far above 8.5 DCR can I go?

I calculated a bunch of number for a couple dozen cams so tell me what my parameters are and I bet I have a cam on my sheet.

A couple initial choices: (I would recalculate after I remove the old heads)
CC 12-410-8 (260/260, .500/.500, 110, 8.53 DCR) (advertised duration)
CC 08-500-8 (258/264, .480/.487, 112, 8.47 DCR)
CC 12-465-8 (260/270, .560/.555, 113, 8.35 DCR)
3 others with 8.59 DCR, ALL have 10.31 SCR

Current cam 8-302-8 (264/274, .480/.480, 112, 8.28 DCR)

 

CC 12-465-8 (260/270, .560/.555, 113, 8.35 DCR)

That one looks real interesting. That will wake up the motor. Looks like you can up the compression too. I would try to stick around 8.5:1 dynamic compression ratio.

 

that the little XFI cam? that will be nice on that car, same with XFI 268

 

The XFI cams only need 1.6 roller rockers. Back to the DCR. 8.35 DCR is OK but if you can go to 8.5 with no trouble then I would do it.

 

always run as much compression as you can get away with

i'm about 11.0 to 1 static and i believe 8.3 to 1 dynamic on 93 octane never had any problems/knocks etc. Hell this car may run on 89-91 octane if i tune for it, but 91 is same price as 93 around me

 

Orr & GTA, thank you both. I think I have all the info I need to build this the RIGHT way. I do think I may swap the cam, since I'll already be there. I'll probably go 1.6 RR with whichever cam gives me that "most lift, least duration" theory. I'll try to post my combination when it's firmly set.

I hope I can help either one of you someday.

Eric

 

The XFI cam was designed for the 1.6 roller rocker. I would not go anymore than that.

 

agreed, give it the 1.6's and leave it at that. it will match AFR heads well