Drew

iTrader: (58)

Back in 2002 when Scoggin-Dickey released the Vortec TPI intake base, it seemed like the hyped articles were coming out of the woodwork. The numbers that were published said a stock L98 with no other change then Vortec heads and the SD intake made 305hp (4700rpm) and 395lb feet of torque (3400rpm). They also said that the same engine with a ZZ4 cam and LT4 valve springs made 317hp (4800rpm) and 399lbs feet of torque (3500rpm). Finally they said with the LT4 hot cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 52mm throttle body, Edelbrock runners, made 356hp (4900rpm) and 427lb feet of torque (3800rpm). So now that it's 8 years later, is it safe to assume many people have tried this build up?

Ok, then so where are the rave reports? What kinds of results have people actually gotten from the Vortec TPI combo?

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i have the build minus the vortec heads.. it feels really really strong bottem end wise considering my car weight 3620 with me in it.... the low end torque is really strong, pulls hard from 0 to 70.... totally murdered a late model fox body mustang with mods out the hole and destroyed a new acura rsx off the line too.... i dont think the 52mm tb is worth it though the stock 48mm will do just fine... i think those numbers are a bit high though..... what they fail to mention is that they fully ported out the vortecbase plates because it flows horribly in stock form....... the standard eldelbrock highflow intake flows better..... thats why i didnt go with the vortec baseplate.... my l98 heads are fine..... i ported my highflow intake out along with supporting mods and my car feels like a different animal from stock...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The above post is correct. The TPI Vortec base is the worst flowing aftermarket base out there that I'm aware of. You are better off with the standard Edelbrock TPI base.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

thats why i didnt go the vortec route... too much work to get the peformance they got.. those are flywheel numbers anyway... so wheel power would be 285whp by 342wtq... that power number can be done with stock heads with a 3 angle valve job spring/retainer/stud upgrade with the hotcam and a custom tune along with the supporting mods they had.....im not sure how much power improvement vortecs are over iron l98 heads.... im sure its 30 at most but thats not going to make much difference on the street...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Is the Scoggin-Dickey Vortec base any different then the Edelbrock Vortec?

How much worse can the Vortec intakes be then the Edelbrock high flow base for standard small block heads? I've got an Edelbrock 3860 baseplate sitting here, checking the ports with a caliper the runner ports are the same size as the stock 91 TPI base. The ports that mate with the heads measure a bit larger, but I bought the intake used and they look more like they've been gasket matched. I'm more then a little disappointed with Edelbrocks idea of a $400 intake manifold.

So then has anyone compared the numbers Vortec's vs iron L98's?

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

yeah the edelbrock base fits standard heads where as the sdpc fits only vortecs and gm fast burn heads..... im not sure of the numbers but ive heard that the sdpc flows pretty bad, not much better than stock actually.... i was debating this same thing when i was doing my build... i decided to get the standard edelbrock intake with my modded l98 heads... happy with the results so far...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Have you got any dyno numbers or timeslips?

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

not yet.. im suppose to be going to alvin at pcm4less down here in charlotte NC in the spring for a true custom tune and dyno.... it should be pretty close to what the vortec build is at.... what are you doing... are you building a vortec tpi combo.... its a good popular street build.. i just took it a little further and spruced up my bottom end to handle the beating...... it provides plenty of fun on the street and it makes it difficult to loose from a stop when racing...... that combo makes the tpi king on the streets...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I'm researching... The magazine and catalog write-ups sure hyped the Vortec setup, but what I don't see is the predictable flood of thirdgen.org members doing Vortec build ups. I'm just curious why the Vortec setup and even the Ram Jet don't seem very common on the forum. I haven't seen any numbers to suggest it works, doesn't work, etc. Only what was published in the magazine which could very well be total hogwash.

Personally, I'll probably either leave my car stock, or do a light overhaul, with a rather traditional larger cam, Edelbrock base, AS&M runners, Holley 52mm TB, 24lb injectors, etc. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble to even do that.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

thats becasue most people who do the vortec build are dissapointed because they didnt get the results from the magazine... as stated the base flows poorly and they re worked it quite a bit to get those numbers...

if i were you i would do the following... you will be happy.. PS dont bother with the 52tb...

freshen heads (install manely spring retainers and screw in studs to handle the hot cam)
gm hotcam
1.5 roller rockers
slp runners(port runners)
port plenum
edelbrock lower base
afpr
24lb injectors
slp cold air intake
headers
catback
custom y pipe
custom tune(most important thing)

for a fun daily driver you really dont need heads if your just looking for an overall power boost.... heads are nice but most cant afford the price tag that comes with them.... you can make a stock headed car fast if built right....

you will feel a big increase in torque and horsepower... it will pull much harder all throughout the powerband than stock and your car will have a nice lumpy idle to it and have that sound that everyone likes in a v8... you dont really need heads to get some power... you will like it..

if you wanna go a step further and make that build seem really quick and strong build up the 700r4 and put in a nice stall.... that will enhance that build greatly and make for a super fun addictive daily driver...


here is what my hotcammed tpi engine untuned sounds like

http://www.youtube.com/user/88fastgta#p/u/2/hbsOVEUyEFk



heres what it sounds like tuned by pcmforless

http://www.youtube.com/user/88fastgta#p/u/0/Kij_lxFp8x4

Drew

iTrader: (58)

haha, it wouldn't have been the first place I'd spend the money but it was given to me. I've already got all the parts I mentioned piled up here, I'm just not in a hurry to put them on the car. I've got several other parts I want to do at the same time, and right now I've got other priorities. Just digging through old magazines got me curious if anyone other then Scoggin-Dickey was really happy with the Vortec TPI setup.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I made over 280 RWHP with an out of the box Edelbrock 3817 lower intake, stock intake runners, cleaned up stock plenum, stock throttle body, ported 906 vortecs, and a production LT4 camshaft on a 8.9:1 350.

It pulled my 5,300 lbs Fullsize G20 Conversion Van down the 1/4 mile track in 14.8 seconds at 94 mph despite the stock 1,600 rpm torque converter and 3.08 gears.

The 700r4 was just about wasted at that point as well. It would flare on the 1-2 shift high enough to tag the rev-limiter and the shifted early on the 2-3 upshift. I think 1-2 hit around 6K and 2-3 about 4,600 letting the transmission shift itself.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I flowed one of those manifolds, indeed it did flow less than a stock TPI mainfold.

The SDPC & the Edelbrock are one in the same. (Edelbrock makes them both)

The #'s

227-236 for the SDPC and the stock TPI 236-240.

The vortec heads flow better than that.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

my edelbrock intake certainely does not feel like the stock intake.... i just dont see how the standard edelbrock intake flow less than the stock..

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Those numbers apply to the Edelbrock 3817, right?
How does the 3860 compare to the stock intake?

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i hope he is talking about the edelbrok vortec intake and not the edelbrock standard high flow intake.... those are different manifolds but they are made by the same company...... i never heard anyone say that the 3860 intake flows worse than the stocker....

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

sorry to resurrect an old thread (ah 2010, when thirdgens were still 'ironic cool'), but do we now have any Vortec headed SD intake HP numbers or further thoughts about flow characteristics; could they really be poorer than the stock baseplate?

I've gone L31 and my troubled mind was in cruise control about getting a SD intake. However, if they really are that miserable, then I guess I better work on my ventriloquist act and accrue some more benji's (or Lizzie's I suppose over here) for an alternative

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't really have anything to add to the topic. I'd still like to hear more from other people that have run the Vortec TPI intake. It stands to reason that the Vortec TPI manifold could be ported the same as the standard TPI Edelbrock base, but you just don't see it done much. I suppose it's well and overshadowed by the LS swaps these days.

I've got an Edelbrock Vortec TPI base, and a regular Edelbrock TPI base on the shelf. Still not sure what I'll end up using, probably something else entirely. Clearly I'm not in a rush to do any of the above. LOL

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

thanks

yeah, sounds like the L31 TPI setup never broker out of the niche category and now is quite clearly over the hill.

But I'll get it to squeeze into a girdle and leather pants, fashion a combover and do one last gig as I'm invested in the L31 getup now; I think I'll go ahead with the SDPC piece (which I understand to be, for performance intents and purposes, to be the same as the Edelbrock 3817)

Likely I'll be done with the swap tail end of the summer; I'll spot some numbers. Will be an entirely stock L31 and TPI setup paired with a whining T5

Anti-Venom

I've personally been a little curious about the Edelbrock Vortech stuff. The aluminum E-Tec 170 heads are supposed to outflow the SDPC heads. And the Pro Flow XT intake is supposed to put out better numbers than the SR intake with higher average torque.

With An XR276 or a hotcam it would make a nice street combo.
You could almost buy the entire top end for the cost of a set of AFRs.

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

hadn't even considered the pro flo unit; looks HR esque. Looks like it'll be a few hundred over the SD TPI unit factoring fuel rails and TB) but from I'm reading, freer flowing...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Pretty sure I read the Pro-Flo won't fit under a stock thirdgen hood, much less a Firebird hood. The GM Ramjet is overpriced, but when you consider what TPI manifolds, aftermarket runners, and so on are going for, it's not that crazy. Even the Mini-ram is affordable when you're looking at $800-1000 for an aftermarket TPI. Seems the only recent developments are EFI units in a package like a 4bbl carb so they'll fit with older cars, but I can't see that kind of setup working as well as multiport injection. Those setups might as well be TBI.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

[quote]It stands to reason that the Vortec TPI manifold could be ported the same as the standard TPI Edelbrock base, but you just don't see it done much.[quote/]

You could port it but you won't get anymore than porting a stock base.
It's been done and also tried to make it a super ported base, with not very good results.

The Edelbrock made into a super ported base can flow over 330 CFM,
The super vortec base barely made 290 CFM. (hours of work including raising the injectors up out of the air stream)

I's too bad they didn't just use the 3860 base and make the changes to make it fit the vortec pattern. The casting is really thin.

see the TPI sticky

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...pi-intake.html

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You mean the 7 page sticky that is all over the place and nearly useless since it's not clear and concise? Pretty sure I read through it at one point or another. While I don't mean to discredit it's merits or the efforts that went into it, it's just difficult to absorb, like herding cats. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place but the thread seems to cover a lot more than the Vortec TPI setup.

The initial question still remains, what results have people had replicating the setup from the magazines? I wanted to know how the Vortec TPI actually works out on the street, not just the numbers. It's been nearly a decade since I started this thread and I still don't have an answer beyond "other setups are better". That doesn't really answer the question.

My goal at that time was to keep the stock appearance while boosting performance. To an extent I still think that'd be nice, but I understand that TPI is a huge limitation at a certain point, and other systems that look completely different can do more with less. Still, I'd like to hear impressions from those who run the Vortec TPI setup. At the end of the day, to really know I'll probably just have to bolt it together and see.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

A Vortec headed engine tops out around 320whp with a HSR and full bolt-ons while using a stock cam.

To find the info you want look at stock headed LT1s that have been cammed. The LT1 head flow and Vortec head flow is basically the same.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I have that setup in my El Camino, stock '91 TPI block, Vortec heads, Vortec intake base, stock runners, 22# injectors, my headers. It runs decent, a little more power (by the butt dyno), certainly more than a stock 083 headed TPI.

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

estimated hp/ quarter mile?

sidebar; looks like the C4 guys haven't had too much trouble fitting the pro-fly XT:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ro-flo-xt.html

Davez1

you wont touch those numbers with stock heads! you need Vortec heads to break 300 hp at the flywheel and then that will require the vortec base. Period

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

If you want stock looking with performance, why not go with one of these for a few $ more than the vortec base?

https://firstfuelinjection.com

And you can get it in any head format you like... Vortec or otherwise. Comes with not just the base but the throttle body, plenum, runners, and base. For less than $1k.

GD

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm running a stock TPI system on my project, right down to the throttle body and runners. I siamesed the system and it has proven to make quite the difference. Debating if I should waste the money on a dyno naturally aspirated before I slap the turbo back on, but if you're interested in seeing numbers on engine alone, let me know, because I'm still considering it. A lot of guys want to see what it will throw down pre-turbo, as do I, though I already have a pretty good idea based on the injector duty cycle I am seeing...

- Rob

Anti-Venom

I'm wondering where the interference would be? From the specs, it's not much taller than the TPI intake.
The stealth ram you have to trim the hood brace to clear the TB, but it's an even taller intake.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

IDK, but.... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7138

firestorm

This is indeed discouraging. I have an L31 just waiting to be dropped in. I want to keep the stock TPI look. I dont have an intake manifold yet, and with edelbrock discontinuing the standard centerbolt manifold years ago, it looks like they go for more used on ebay then a new vortec manifold that's still available from SDPC. I'd hate to have to buy standard heads when I have perfectly fine vortecs already.

So $400 for the vortec manifold.
-or-
About $500 for the hi flo edelbrock manifold + $1xxx for heads. How much HP difference would there be?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I ported the snot out of a vortec tpi base several yrs ago but ended up selling it to someone on this forum I think.
​​​​​​​it should have flowed pretty well, way better than stock.
​​​​​​​would like to know if it ever got put to use.

bloodhound1

I wanted to keep the TPI appearance as well so I got a First setup. Still putting it together.

https://firstfuelinjection.com/

Oli

burnout88

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

Through a 4x4 drivetrain, 700r4, mild cams.
- 355cid lightly ported iron vortec, edelbrock tpi vortec base edelbrock hi flow runners, ported oem plenum, ported stock tb 255hp at the wheel.
- 385cid afr vortec heads, first vortec intake, 310 to the wheels.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Resurrection!

I installed a Blueprint 355 - dyno rated at 397 crank HP (came with Dyno sheets) into an 87 IROC. Got it on my dyno today...... This is running the SDPC Vortec base (stock), stock 87 TPI, and stock headers / exhaust.

Performance is..... Honestly it's laughable..... 202 RWHP, and 263 RWTQ.

This was just to get it on the road. The L98 was rod knocked.

There ya go. SDPC Vortec base is almost certainly worse than stock as Dyno Don flowed it to be. It's ridiculously bad in fact.

GD

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

that’s less than some stock 350 tpi cars put down.


how is blueprint rating these engines? Cause that sounds like pure gross sae type numbers from the 60s

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I don't know the specifics but it's definitely without accessories I'm sure. Probably open long tubes..... Every trick in the book I'm sure.

First engine from them lost rod bearings three hours into testing/tuning. They said "#6 and #7 rod bearings were too tight" and paid the freight, and my R&R labor. Sucked but they took care of it.

It's got their in-house aluminum heads. As-cast. No CNC work evident.

Cheap Chinese oil pan doesn't properly clear the stock Y pipe so had to clearance the Y pipe a bit where it snakes around the pan - that likely doesn't help anything but didn't want to void any warranty by swapping it out.

I don't think any bone stock TPI car is going to get 202 to the wheels. Some were 235 crank but through an Auto like this I don't believe any of them would hit 202 at the wheels with 100% stock exhaust, intake, etc. 15% drivetrain loss is like 199..... And Dyno Don did say he flow tested the SDPC part and it was worse than stock....

But you are right. I did a 70 GTO with a Pontiac 400 recently. The owner was pretty shocked when his precious put down 235 RWHP. LOL

GD

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So the moral of the story is if anybody has a Blueprint engine then start making bets right away. Money in the bank!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

That sounds about right.. I think I saw a dyno back in the day where a stock off the line aluminum headed L98 put out 3-350 fwhp with a carb on it. Longtubes and no front accessories

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

A stock 90-92 5.7 IROC made 202whp with the stock dual cat exhaust system. Run smog headers with dual cats and it will make 240whp and also 3in Magnaflow cat-back exhaust

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Nice. This engine shoved 202 wheel through a single cat exhaust that's been crushed down a bit to clear this bloated Chinese oil pan. I'll recommend a full exhaust, headers, and tune as his next upgrade. The engine is there it just can't breathe.

GD

BHR

been documented that the stock base flows 220cfm dont even know why youd port a base to over 300cfm when once you put runners on it it will flow much less and what head are you using that needs over 300cfm?

i have messed with alot of intakes over the years but never have yet to mess with the vortec tpi base one day though one thing that the haters need to understand about this injector being in the way is go look at the FIRST intake base there injector boss is all up in the runner path here is a pic

Galaxie500XL

iTrader: (1)

I need to follow this resurrected thread...I have a brand new S-D TPI Vortec manifold I bought 3 years ago, with the intent to drop L31 heads on my ‘88 L98...

Most information I found back in the day seemed to indicate HP at the crank in the 290-300 HP range, but the real improvement was supposedly torque, at around 400 foot-pounds, with a somewhat flatter torque curve, and roughly the same power falloff as the stock L98 above 5000 RPM.

I own a ‘93 LT1 Corvette, while Chevrolet rated it at 300 HP, I’ve always been disappointed at the 340 foot-pounds of torque they rated the ‘93 Corvette at, which IIRC, is within the range reported for stock L98 F-bodies back in the day.

From what I’m hearing here, the improvement with the S-D base and L31 heads may have been a bit...optimistic.

BHR

a lt1 engine has a flat broad torque curve it will make above 300lbs for more of the rpm band than a tpi will also ls1 where also in the 340 range so nothing to be disappointed with

if you can get the heads for cheap and your inclined to do the work than go for it at the bear minimum port match the intake to the heads and tear drop the injector bungs inside the SD base but if i wanted a noticeable gain i would also do the cam as the articles state

BHR

l31 head flow int/exhaust 100-600 lift

70/49 139/105 190/137 227/151 239/160 229/162

083 your 88 heads 100-600 lift
44/41 101/82 155/125 182/137 196/140 202/141

trick flow 195
51/58 136/98 191/136 230/163 253/177 254/190

i personally never got into the vortec craze back then or now b/c their iron heavy heads most of the budget guys i know run trickflow 1200 for the pair of assembled heads with 195cc runner better exhaust flow and 25lbs lighter you can get them a bit cheaper if you use summit or jegs coupons

the thing about the SD base is its the only way w/o welding to get the tpi or super ram on a raised runner head