just ordered my injectors and afpr from southbay. i have to say someone that reads the forums then adjust their price (at least that's what it looks like to me) deserves the money. not to mention they don't bad mouth the opposition and can spell properly on their website.

 

Ok, I'll give it a shot. TPI is nice when it's working.

 

Well, if everyone needed a flow bench I am sure we would all buy one. Unfortunately, that is not the situation and it is only possible to go by the data that is out there. I am aware that different manufacturers rate at different fuel pressure levels.

This link has many flow numbers:

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

Of which you will find Bosch P/N 0-280-155-700 which is the Yellow Bosch Design III which I currently have in my hand rated at 18.25LBS/Hr. @ 43.5PSI

They are also listed in the below chart as 18.25LBS/Hr. @ 43.5PSI

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25023912/Injector-Opbrengst

and the following table

http://www.bulletperformanceracing.c...ble%20155.html

There is quite a bit of data out there suggesting that those injectors flow the rate listed above. Though there is not much data suggesting 22LBS/Hr. @ 43.5PSI - Case and point, don't shoot the messenger. This is the information that is out there for these injectors.

BTW, even in the days of our cars GM was using fuel pressures in the high 50's range - look at the Gen II 60 degree V6's. Unregulated some pumps could hit over 60, Regulated I believe they were mid 40's through the low 50's. (Not sure of exact numbers though)

 

Thank you for the purchase Darkhorse 91 will get everything out to you asap.
Regarding the flow rate of the bosch lll 280155700 18.25lb @ 43.5psi??? I would like to know who is flowing these injectors and on what kind of bench. These injectors are our most popular injector and we flow every single one of them, i have yet to see them flow 18lb @ 43.5psi

 

Ok, beat the side of the injector and still nothing. Confirmed that I still have good spark. Pulled the valve cover to make sure I don't have a bad cam. Have very good compression (220LBS) WOT. All injectors were within specs as far as resistance. I gotta imagine the pintle is stuck or the injector is clogged. I'm going to pull the injectors this weekend and see what I got.

By the way, totally off the subject but would 87 center bolt heads fit on the 86 block?

 

i have this similar problem and my check engine light is on and have no clue. ive been driving it all winter no problems. i get my cat back hooked up and now that its getting warmer outside, let me drive for a bit and when everythings all warmed up it idles, surges and it'll finally die out. so im not sure, my motor is from an 89 and it appears all stock (im assuming the injectors are as well) with about 120,xxx on the tpi 350 i swapped in.

im thinking about getting a set of the 22lb injectors to see if this helps but wouldnt want to just dump money into seeing if this solves the situation...that is a pretty good deal on south bays website.

 

You live in S.D.? Nice weather. I live just east of you, down in the Imperial Valley, the area of the 7.2 easter earthquake. Any ways. the injectors that are in are probably around 21 years old. So if they are the originals, you might aswell replace with the 22 lbs Bosch III's. I got a set in my IROC and WOW. Took care of my miss. There are 2 companies that sell them for around $150. They are take outs. In other words, they where in a Ford vehicle but they are practically new. They are flow tested and modified to fit your TPI system. If I were you, I would start there because you'll need to replace them soon anyways.

 

Just ordered a set of 24s and the BBK AFPR. Combined with the Walbro pump I installed the car will be ready for some mods later...I will just cut back some fuel pressure while the car is stock (5.7 liter) to keep it from running on the rich side with the larger injectors. Frank and Julie at southbay were very helpful and great to deat with.

 

i don't know anything about injectors.My 1987 camaro iroc,305 tpi, has a clicking injector.Anyone got specific info for me? I have a friend to help get it fixed this weekend and I need any info I should know. Please reply, not with a place to buy them,just previous experiences and suggestions.Thanks

 

WOW. Your the first guy that ive heard with a 305 in a 87 IROC. I dont know about your clicking injector, but if you decide to buy a new set, let me make a suggestion. You can get a set of 19 lbs F.I. that are called Bosch III's. There are a couple of sites that sell them. They are basically new but they are outstanding. I got a set of 22 lbs for my 350. They are only around $150.

 

Follow up. Ordered my 24lb Fuel Injectors from Southbay and they were shipped on Tuesday and got to me on Thursday...great service. I put the injectors in along with the BBK afpr and my car is running great. The fuel injectors fit perfectly and the car fires right up, idles well, I set the fuel pressure at 42 vs. 38, car feels a bit stronger again.

 

hello
ok after reading a lot of posts on injectors,,i would like to ask you ,,,i have a new305 new everything,,,my injectors are bad,,run ok when cold,take it for a drive and it sounds like i have VALVES RATTLEING GOING ON,,,is this due to needing new injectors... timing is set .to specs.... no vacum leaks, I have a 305 TPI.. with no AIR Smog pump hooked up.... when cold runs good with no ratteling going on only when warm....

 

Not sure what the rattling is but it's not the injectors. The car wouldn't run well cold if the injectors were bad. I think we need a little more information regarding the running of the car when hot. You have to determine if it's spark or fuel. Is the ignintion system new? The rattling you're hearing...Are you sure it's valves? If so, I would check the simple things first - Oil pressure? You're pressure will drop when the engine warms up. Valve lash was adjusted correctly when the engine was built?

 

Pull any trouble codes. This is the utmost important step because it'll let you know if there is a problem with engine knock. You may have a bad knock sensor, bad timing, detonation. Did you tighten all the internal bolts to its recommended foot/inch lbs? If the valve lash was not set correctly, it would rattle right at start up. Im thinking detonation. When the engine is cold, its fine, but when the engine or upper combustion chamber gets wwwwaaaayyyyy too hot, you will get detonation. This may be caused by bad timing. A failing EGR system can cause a knocking noise. Follow this to get a full run down of detonation ( http://www.misterfixit.com/deton.htm ). It's a shot in the dark if you know what I mean. Try to pin point the location of the noise. Get a strip of hose and put one end to your ear and the other to various locations on the engine. The source of noise will be louder when you find the troubled section. It may not even be the engine. Duck down like a dog in heat (face down, butt up), and see if the sound is under the car. Let us know what you find so that we can fix this sucker.

 

Good point about detonation. I wasn't thinking about the rattling actually being engine knock. Bottom line is we need to know exactly what the "Rattling" is before we can better assess what's causing it.

 

I agree with you wehrlebird.

 

An injector on which the coil tests good might benefit from sonic cleaning. In this process the injectors are flow tested, then cleaned using high pressure and a solvent solution infused with high frequency sound waves. The sound waves help break loose deposits. Then the inectors are flow tested again to verify performance. It may sound like witchcraft but it really works. Ive had it done many times, always with great results. Much less cost than new injectors.

 

even though an injector may have ohm readings within normal
limits does not mean that the injector is not clogged or dirty. Any disruption in the spray pattern could have a potential effect on your performance.

 

hello
ok did ohms check today,,all reading 18 when hot ,injectors where cleaned at a shop,,valve lash is correct ,every bolt and nut torqued to speck,gap on plugs are 40..timing is set by the book. everything is new EXPCET the EGR ,did a vacuum test on the EGR and tested good so i put in on the new motor...

Ok the motor is a 305 block bored 30 over with a 400 crank and rods with a small cam,flat top pop up pistons, the heads are 305 with a three angle grind and ported, the intake was hot tanked as well as the runners and the plenum, the throttle body was butterfly ed and running 58 cc butterfly's.... I have a cold intake system hooked up to the TPI with the air hose right to the front on the grill... this ride will snap your head back,,,,,I am running a map system on this motor, i got the info off this site to do so.. Brandon who is on this site was helping me work out the bugs ,,,every thing was working good for over a month and then valve rattling,,,, have not heard from Brandon ,,i hope he is doing OK,,,, some of you senior members might know him...

I did everything by the book ,,,checked and double checked step by step....
I will check the EGR and replace it just because,,, other then that i don't know what to think,,, i am stumped.... the noise is comeing from the motor during excelleration....

 

Brandon, as is Chevy8588? He is a very good man. Sometimes I call him
directly to his cell when I need help on my IROC. He's been really busy lately. I waited for a response from him for like about a week but he sure came through. As a matter of fact, the day before yesterday, he texted me about how his hood flew open during a drag.

 

hi
yeah hes the man he knows all the stuff,,, i have not talked to him in some time,,
He knows his stuff.... i am going to change my EGR this weekend.... will let you know... if i did not need it i would block it off,,,but since it's TPI i need it..

Rick

 

I asked in another thread about dodeting the EGR and they said just leave it in. So I dont know what Im going to do.

 

The EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) system is an emission control device.

EGR is used to reduce the production of NOX(oxides of nitrogen). By recirculating inert gas(exhaust is mostly CO2) back into the intake air stream, the EGR system lowers combustion temperatures. NOX is produced when combustion temps rise above 2,400F. Todays oxigenated fuels, along with leaner fuel mixtures, all intended to decrease exhaust emmissions, cause engines to run higher combustion temps.

Unless an emission controlled engine is modified and/or retuned to manage higher combustion temps, running without the EGR valve can cause severe engine damage.

 

The valve rattling you describe sounds alot like detonation. It may also be pre-ignition. Either of these can destroy an engine in short order. I would strongly recommend that you not drive the car until you solve this problem.

Detonation may well be caused by injectors, it could be other issues as well. Detonation is most often caused by abnormally high combustion temps. High combustion temps are generally caused by lean fuel mixtures.

Pre-ignition is usually just too much ignition lead.

 

hello

I am rich on fuel,,,my plugs are just a little black,,i will check the ohms on the injectors in the morning,,6 out of 8 read 18 two read 17 when hot, EGR is working... so I am stumped.... had all the injectors cleaned at a shop... I am pricing new ones... I missed a set here on the site by one day,,,just my luck a day late and a dollar short...... THIS car has got some ***** lol..... I know it's just a matter of working out the last little internal bug i have.... If you have any other tips or knowledge PLEASE LET ME KNOW... Thank You... I am old school chevy guy this is my first TPI PROJECT and it will be my LAST....

65 elko

 

hello
well it's 1 am and i don't know what to think,, i checked injector ohms cold and hot( all with in the ohms range i have read from this site,,6 of them where reading 18 two read 17 hot/ cold 6 read 18 two read 17) this morning then pulled off the EGR tested it and it was GOOD put it back together and found bad vacuum hose so i changed all of them.started the car it purred oh so nice turned it off and the restarted it and drove it down the street for a mile, when i step on it i got the same rattling again ,so when i got back i checked the timing to see if it was out of timing,, the reading i got was 12 bftdc ,unhooked the timing plug to the ECM and the timing showed 6 btdc,,,, my temp gage was reading hot !.... what is the timing supposed to be when the ecm takes over replugging in the ECM and resetting the ecm with the battery cable off ,, I even put 92 octane in it thinking it was to low of octane for the motor,,, OK guys i have everything new on this car except for my DIZZY witch was just replaced in my last motor 3 months ago (REBILT)....including all SENSORS ON THE WHOLE MOTOR... I HAVE NO EGINE CODE COMING UP AT ALL.... So is it my dizzy gone bad or my MEMCAL or my ECM,,,,,, A friend says i might need to take it to a shop and have the ecm reset to factory specs,He said the timing should be at 6 bftdc being run by the ecm and when setting with out the ecm hooked up for the timming,,,, I live on a fixed in come and my extra cash is now all gone,,,,

PLEASE ANY HELP ,,,i am pulling my hair out trying to get this right......
I have all my cash in this car... say any one to bye a car lol.......

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL YOUR GUYS HELP !

 

i
Wire resistance is measured in ohms per foot so unless all your wires are the same length the resistance for each should be different.

 

hello
All the spark plug wires are 8mm high performance,,, (Bosch) NEW,,, And yes i know all the ohms are different on plug wires,, as well as the ohms for the injectors,,, now i did not put the point numbers up in my last posting, because i know all the injectors are in the wright spec range according to the Mitchell repair books, hell i even called the chevy dealer,,,, I have good spark' good power from the coil 'Everthing is new on this motor ... I have built 10 second aspirated race motors,,, and NEVER had trouble shooting problems like i am having with this TPI system.... Now i rember why i dont like computer controled motors,,,,,,,,,,lol ...
And NOT A SINGLE CHECK ENGINE LITGHT ON ,,,,lol

 

Ask your friend if he has had the same issues. He's wrong on a few points. First of all, our Camaro's are made to be ONLY on regular unleaded (87). Not midgrade/plus (89) and definetely not supreme (92). Using anything other than regular, especially if you add octane booster, would definitely run the high risk of detonation and engine knock. If I could remember where I found this info, I would paste the link so that you can verify it, but it is info from a GM source.
As for the 6*, your freind is wrong. With the EST wire disconnected, the timing should be at 6*. Once you set the timing (6*), then you should turn off the car, reconnect the EST wire, then turn on the car. Now check the SES light, it should be on. If it is not on, then you have a problem with the ECM's diagnostic system because when the EST wire gets disconnected, the ECM senses a problem the EST (Electric Spark Timing) wiring and then issues a Troublecode 42. Once the EST has been reconnected, the ECM will now take over the spark advance/retard by means of ESC Module, Ignition Control Module, Knock Sensor, and other settings depending on what sensors are reporting to the PROM. NOTE: Once the EST wire is reconnected, the timing will fluctuate on the harmonic balancer because the ECM is taking over.
Also, to reset the ECM, all you have to do is disconnect the 1 pin weather pack connector that is always "HOT", which powers the ECM, or just disconnect the positive battery cable for atleast a minute. To be sure that there is no lingering current, turn on your headlights to drain every last bit of power from the electrical system. So dont take it to a shop. You'll have to pay an inspection fee.
Having friends that help you out is great, but be careful. Sometimes they give advice because of "word of mouth." Take it from us here in Thirdgen.org. I may not have all the answers, but when I give lengthy advice such as this post, then I know what Im saying because I've gone through it. Try tuning up you TPI system. You may need a new TPS too. Check out these links to get better familiar with you TPI system, and how to tune it.
1. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

2. http://mpikas.blogspot.com/2008/08/t...june-2000.html

 

Youre getting 12v on both wires because on batch fire systems, which TPI is, the injectors on each bank all share one power circuit and one driver circuit. The 12v is being read through the other 3 injector coils. The ECM pulls the low side of the cicuit to ground to activate the injector. When not pulled to ground, the low side will read 12v. Try testing the injector with a stethiscope. See if it "clicks" as it should.

 

hello
i did check them today with a stethascope,,, i am hearing a thud sound from 6 of them and a sharp fast clicking form two of them.... I read in a tech articale the even if the ohms are right the can still be bad... today when i drove it it was smoth but when i get on lightly it sounds like predetanation.... sound like i am bet some new injectors form FIC...

 

Hello

well this site is the BEST PLACE FOR ANY INFO FOR TPI OR TBI... your wright,,i did some more reading today ,, I am so thankful for all your help... I was reading on a Corvette site the your injectors can still be bad with god ohms reading good.... boy i was shocked... I am running a 91 camaro wiring harness with a 91 ECM and all 91 sensors ... so my EST is in the ECM... I did call chevy and you are right an so was my friend,,, the cheap and easy way to reset the ECM is disconnect the ground off the battery for 30 seconds ,yes it can be done off a computer diagnoses machine as well just cost 300 bucks.. since i have no money i did it the cheap way...
what is happening to my car is this,,, when i run normal lol, it is ok and when i put my foot in it a little i get the predestination but put my foot in it hard and it goes away... so my INJECTORS ARE BAD even though the ohms reading is good...
chevy macanic told me to run e-3 or bosh platinum #4"s

I am very grateful in asking questions to all the people form this site or any site for help AN if i am wrong about something i will admit it and search for the right answer..
So i wish to thank you and everyone who has helped me with my TPI...
Will re post on this page after installing new injectors from FIC....
THANK YOU
P.S. if you have any other idea's please let me know....

 

64elko, you may very well have bad injectors, the multecs were trouble prone when they were new.

im a little lost on this point, "flat top pop up pistons".
if they aren't dished, the pistons would be either flat tops, or domed.

a 383 with Vortec heads with flat top pistons is over 10:1 on the compression ratio. i forget the exact amount, but with cast iron heads its not a pump gas friendly compression ratio.
if you have domed pistons with it being stroked, the compression ratio would
really be up there, 11+.
then there is the quench, it should be around .040. if it gets over about .055, then detonation becomes a problem. a high compression motor will amplify bad quench.

we really need to know the full specs on your motor. deck height, which heads you have and if anything was done to them, piston & head volume, and cam specs.
it may be best to start a new thread for your problem.

ps, i wouldn't put E3s in anything i own, and i really don't care too much for Bosch platinums either.

 

hello
the motor is a 82 305 crossfire TBI ,It cam with all the wiring ,ecm the paper work from the machine shop says crane dome pistons,400 crank an rods, three angle grind and stock valves,this motor was a long block already built ,so i put it in my car and put my TPI on , i still have the TBI crossfire manifold the TBI's ,ECM and all the wiring ,dizzy and exhaust manifolds...i am saving for another car,,, so i don't real know much about this motor ....

 

Let us know what happens when you install the injectors. Are you getting the Bosch III's? Remeber, 305 engines use 19 lb'ers and the 350 use 21 LB'ers.

 

hello
getting the Bosch III's .it will take a week to get them......will let you know..

 

Hey 64elko, Some points I wish to make. If you are running a 400 crank in a 305, especially with flat top pistons, you must be running at least 11:1 compression. Ive never heard of such a combination. Guess there's a first time for everything.

With cast iron heads(cast iron retains more combustion heat and is not as forgiving as aluminum), I dont know if you will ever get it to run on pump gas without detonation. You were misled by one post. Our 9.5:1 TPI motors were not intended to run on anything less than 90 octane. If your combination is what you think, it will need atleast 91 octane and may not run well on anything less than 108 race gas. Hopefully, Im wrong and injectors will solve your problem

A brief on "octane"
Octane is not a substance added to fuel. Octane is quite simply a rating of a motor fuels resistance to detonation. Higher rating means greater resistance to detonation.

 

If you can show proof of GM recommending a high octane, then Ill step down. But I spend the last 45 minutes going through my internet browsers history to find the GM website where I read that our third gens where build to run on regular unleaded (87 oct). I cant find it, i just cant find it.

 

I found this in my Alldata under drivability complaints; Diagnostic Procedures:
3. If basic checks do not reveal a vehicle fault, then advise the customer that fuel quality may be an issue. Recommend the following actions:
- Change brands of fuel
- Use 87 octane gasoline, unless the vehicle is designed for premium gasoline.

I designed my 388 to run on 87 and I don't have any trouble using it.
The manual specifically states:Using fuels of a lower octane than the vehicle was calibrated to will cause increased "KS" Knock Sensor system activity. This will result in a net decrease in spark advance and thus poorer fuel economy. Using fuel of a higher octane than the vehicle was calibrated for WILL NOT increase fuel economy.

 

hello
well guys thanks for all the info...after taking it my friends shop that i waited till the very last to do so. and putting on a diagnosis computer ,the injector are WAY to small as well as my timing advance mod in the dizzy went bad,,, so i put the new mod in and 30 pound injectors,,, running on pump gas ,,,87 it's running very good, hell it idols down the road at 35mph with my foot of the gas pedal.... thanks guys for all your help.... you guys and this site SAVED ma a Lotta cash..... oh by the way this is the second motor i have had in one of many hot rods with a 305 and 400 crank and rods..it is 70's old school hot roding,,,,

Thank you

 

Injector are way too small, as in the Bosch III's? Heck, in my IROC, the Bosch III's are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

I dont wish to hijack this thread or send it spiraling off course. As an engine performance specilaist with GM in the early 90s, I saw plenty of our 3rd gens with either low power complaints, knock sensor codes, or, in the worst cases, engine knock complaints.

GM's suggestion that these engines could run on 87 octane was intended to create the idea that these cars could be economical, using inexpensive fuel. The engineering of the TPI engines runs in direct conflict with the impression that they are suitable for low octane fuel. 9.5:1 compression and cast iron heads dont mix well with low octane. If you read your owner's manual carefully, you should find the note on fuel quality. It says sometning like: "your vehicle can operate on lower octane fuels however you may notice a decrease in performance and fuel economy". Todays oxygenated fuels(10% ethanol) will only exacerbate this problem.

Most of the knock related complaints I dealt with were ultimately solved by switching to higher octane fuel. That along with injector and top end cleaning to remove deposits left by cheap fuel. It is true that, unless the ESC is retarding timing to reduce knock because of low octane, higher octane will not improve fuel mileage or performance. Trouble is, you may never know when the ESC is covering for poor fuel. It will just turn back timing as far as 18 degrees and the only sign you'll see of it is reduced performance and economy.

The main point of this and my earlier post is to clarify the fact that lower octane really does exacerbate engine knock. Enter "Octane Rating" at Wikipedia for an excellent article on the meaning of octane.

 

Why not just stick to the injectors? If it's that much of a concern, just start a new thread about octane. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...etter-our.html

 

hello

i never started any thing about octan...

 

Did you read who I quoted on? I clearly quoted ASE doc. I started a new thread because ASE doc sort of hi-jacked the thread by commenting on fuel octanes. So I took the liberty of directing his comments of octane to a seperate thread.

 

Hi
sorry it was a late night when i read your repost ,,,sorry... God i LOVE THIS SITE....

 

Dont worry 64elko. It was way to early for me to bro.