timing mystery
#1
timing mystery
87 tpi 305 70 k miles on it. runs real good. today for the heck of it i checked the timing with a timing light. the balancer mark is way to the left of the cover marks. i left it alone. what could be the deal with that. if it was that far advanced it would ping bad.as far as i know no mods were ever done to the cam. although it runs faster than my buddies stock 305 tpi of the same year. i smoke his.
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Car: 83 Trans Am / 96 Jeep XJ
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Re: timing mystery
My motor does this too. When I put it in the proper timing, the engine shuts off and refuses to start. It doesnt make any sense to me. Though my motor isnt tpi.
Dunno.
Dunno.
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Car: 1990 RS Camaro
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Re: timing mystery
you need to run the car in "service mode"(i think thats what its called) before setting the timing.. start up the car and stick a paper clip in ports a and b. (see below)
the car should idle lower, thats how you know its good to set the timing
the car should idle lower, thats how you know its good to set the timing
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Car: 1991 Z28 vert, 1988 GTA
Engine: 305 TPI, 305 Carb-finally runs!
Transmission: TH-700R4/BW WC T-5
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Re: timing mystery
disconnecting the tan and black wire on the firewall disables the ECM's ability to advance/retard the timing so it can be properly set. if you didn't disconnect that wire before checking it, it was wherever the ECM had it advanced to.
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Car: 92 GTA
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Re: timing mystery
so should you do both the paperclip and the black/tan wire? I've always just done the wire. Thanks.
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Re: timing mystery
It's located back near the power brake booster. A single tan wire with a black stripe.
A code gets set once the ECM detects the engine running with that wire disconnected, so you'll need to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or so after your finished checking the timing then re-connect it.
While it's connected, the ECM takes over and controls the ignition timing. That's why your timing shows advanced. With the connector disconnected the timing should be 6 degrees BTDC if it's set to the stock setting.
Jake
A code gets set once the ECM detects the engine running with that wire disconnected, so you'll need to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or so after your finished checking the timing then re-connect it.
While it's connected, the ECM takes over and controls the ignition timing. That's why your timing shows advanced. With the connector disconnected the timing should be 6 degrees BTDC if it's set to the stock setting.
Jake
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Car: 87 Iroc Z28
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Re: timing mystery
I have 5 various tpi 305 motors that ive pulled over the years. The one thing that was most common between them all was the harmonic balancer rubber ring was bad. It would allow the two pieces to move seperate as opposed to one. That wouldn't mess up your timing (engine wise) ,but would visually.... When the timing mark on the balancer is at 12 o'clock position, the crank keyway should also be at the 12 o'clock position. if it isn't your balancer is bad.... I hope that gets you into the right direction.
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
It's located back near the power brake booster. A single tan wire with a black stripe.
A code gets set once the ECM detects the engine running with that wire disconnected, so you'll need to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or so after your finished checking the timing then re-connect it.
While it's connected, the ECM takes over and controls the ignition timing. That's why your timing shows advanced. With the connector disconnected the timing should be 6 degrees BTDC if it's set to the stock setting.
Jake
A code gets set once the ECM detects the engine running with that wire disconnected, so you'll need to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or so after your finished checking the timing then re-connect it.
While it's connected, the ECM takes over and controls the ignition timing. That's why your timing shows advanced. With the connector disconnected the timing should be 6 degrees BTDC if it's set to the stock setting.
Jake
Isn't the EST Tan/Black stripe wire located on the passenger side, coming out of the wire harness conduit?? I have three thirdgens, two 1987 TPI's, and a 1989 TPI, and the EST wire is on the passenger side on all three, no where near the brake booster!!!
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Read your underhood decal about checking/setting the timing, it says absolutely nothing about any paperclip in the ALDL connector!!
I've checked my timing plenty of times, and I've never had to put the car into "service mode" while checking/setting the timing!!
I call BS on this!!
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
87 tpi 305 70 k miles on it. runs real good. today for the heck of it i checked the timing with a timing light. the balancer mark is way to the left of the cover marks. i left it alone. what could be the deal with that. if it was that far advanced it would ping bad.as far as i know no mods were ever done to the cam. although it runs faster than my buddies stock 305 tpi of the same year. i smoke his.
Read your underhood decal about how to check/set your timing, it tells you step by step, and it's your best source of info on how to do it!!
There is some erroneous info in this thread, and you could possibly damage your ECM using this erroneous info!!
Read the decal!!
P.S. If you don't have the underhood decal, let me know, and I'll post the contents of mine for you!!
P.P.S. To answer your original question, you must check the timing with the EST in "by-pass" mode (Tan/Black stripe wire disconnected at the connector) to get the correct reading off of the balancer!!!
Last edited by 87IROC-DAN61; 05-18-2010 at 01:42 AM.
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Car: 1990 RS Camaro
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Re: timing mystery
Hello chevy lovin!!!
Read your underhood decal about how to check/set your timing, it tells you step by step, and it's your best source of info on how to do it!!
There is some erroneous info in this thread, and you could possibly damage your ECM using this erroneous info!!
Read the decal!!
P.S. If you don't have the underhood decal, let me know, and I'll post the contents of mine for you!!
P.P.S. To answer your original question, you must check the timing with the EST in "by-pass" mode (Tan/Black stripe wire disconnected at the connector) to get the correct reading off of the balancer!!!
Read your underhood decal about how to check/set your timing, it tells you step by step, and it's your best source of info on how to do it!!
There is some erroneous info in this thread, and you could possibly damage your ECM using this erroneous info!!
Read the decal!!
P.S. If you don't have the underhood decal, let me know, and I'll post the contents of mine for you!!
P.P.S. To answer your original question, you must check the timing with the EST in "by-pass" mode (Tan/Black stripe wire disconnected at the connector) to get the correct reading off of the balancer!!!
HAHA ok great im going to throw away my service manual now because its filled with erroneous info. HAHA if only we were allowed to curse
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Sometimes the wrong info is spread around, and then becomes "gospel", until someone calls B.S.
Check out the info on the underhood label on your car, it won't tell you to put anything in the ALDL connector while checking the timing, but it will give you the correct info on how to do it!!
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Car: 1990 RS Camaro
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Re: timing mystery
Hello sparkplug619!!
Sometimes the wrong info is spread around, and then becomes "gospel", until someone calls B.S.
Check out the info on the underhood label on your car, it won't tell you to put anything in the ALDL connector while checking the timing, but it will give you the correct info on how to do it!!
Sometimes the wrong info is spread around, and then becomes "gospel", until someone calls B.S.
Check out the info on the underhood label on your car, it won't tell you to put anything in the ALDL connector while checking the timing, but it will give you the correct info on how to do it!!
It just pissed me off when you accused my info of being erroneous. I would never give advice unless the advice is confirmed. But I understand by you not knowing who I am and me being new to the forums, anyone would be iffy on my info so I am not angry with you and would also like to apologize for my anger in my previous posts.
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Re: timing mystery
if you search for "aldl connector set timing" on google, plenty of info comes up for chevy cars, including info posted on thirdgen.org about using the aldl connector
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Hello sparkplug619!!
I just checked my 1987 factory service manual, and a haynes manual that I have, and they both say to follow the underhood label!!
What year is your Chilton manual for??
Possibly a variance for a certain year??????? Prior to 1987???
I just checked my 1987 factory service manual, and a haynes manual that I have, and they both say to follow the underhood label!!
What year is your Chilton manual for??
Possibly a variance for a certain year??????? Prior to 1987???
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Re: timing mystery
Ok I read a little closer into the book and have to apologize.
it says from 88-90 to use the aldl and from 82-87 and 91-92 use the sticker under the hood.
sorry buddy I should've read closer. I am working with an 89 and have been grounding the aldl to put my car in service to check the codes before I pulled the engine and the idle would definitely drop when I connected it
it says from 88-90 to use the aldl and from 82-87 and 91-92 use the sticker under the hood.
sorry buddy I should've read closer. I am working with an 89 and have been grounding the aldl to put my car in service to check the codes before I pulled the engine and the idle would definitely drop when I connected it
Last edited by sparkplug619; 05-18-2010 at 02:55 AM.
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
I checked out a thread in the TBI forum, under How to set timing on TBI, and someone there mentions your method, and that it didn't work, and that you disconnect the Tan/Black Stripe wire regardless which FI system you have!!
This person also quotes the Chiltons manual........he also asks if the Chiltons manual is wrong!!
Your not convincing me yet, that your method works!!!!
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Ok I read a little closer into the book and have to apologize.
it says from 88-90 to use the aldl and from 82-87 and 91-92 use the sticker under the hood.
sorry buddy I should've read closer. I am working with an 89 and have been grounding the aldl to set the timing before I pulled the engine
it says from 88-90 to use the aldl and from 82-87 and 91-92 use the sticker under the hood.
sorry buddy I should've read closer. I am working with an 89 and have been grounding the aldl to set the timing before I pulled the engine
I have a 1989 TPI sitting in my driveway, and the underhood label still doesn't say anything of the sort, it tells me to disconnect the Tan/Black stripe wire to put the EST into "by-pass" mode!!
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Re: timing mystery
OK you dont have to believe me or chilton. Im just stating what I read and posted my evidence. the book says ground the aldl and the car says pull the wire. I believe both of them but that doesnt mean you have to. you say your not convinced well I am not here to convince you, I stated the fact and backed it up with evidence, theres nothing left to do so do your thing .
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Re: timing mystery
What I am trying to tell you is that there is a different method from what the sticker says. The book states a different method, if its been published then it must work. Im not telling you "do not to pull the connector", just to basically think outside the box
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
OK you dont have to believe me or chilton. Im just stating what I read and posted my evidence. the book says ground the aldl and the car says pull the wire. I believe both of them but that doesnt mean you have to. you say your not convinced well I am not here to convince you, I stated the fact and backed it up with evidence, theres nothing left to do so do your thing .
This all started because of a difference of methods, you posted your stuff, and I posted my stuff, I'm willing to accept a different approach to a common solution, and maybe your method is a short cut to my method!!
Does that make sense to you????
My last post was a question to you, I guess I could have "posed" it another way!! Does it work for you on your 1989 when you jumper the A-B terminal???
I ask this because I have a 1989 also, maybe I'll try your method????
The end result here is not to leave in a huff, but to leave with more knowledge, as that's what these boards are supposed to do!!
P.S. Have a good night!!
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
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Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Read my last post, you'll understand that I did think outside the box!!
By stating that I may try your method!!
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Re: timing mystery
I'm not trying to leave angry but from your post it seemed as if I am supposed to sell it to you. So I would rather leave with "take it or leave it" instead of argueing about something I know will work (the "pull the wire" method) versus something that was published stating it will work. I never seen the sticker so I posted the method I found in a published book.
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
I'm not trying to leave angry but from your post it seemed as if I am supposed to sell it to you. So I would rather leave with "take it or leave it" instead of argueing about something I know will work (the "pull the wire" method) versus something that was published stating it will work. I never seen the sticker so I posted the method I found in a published book.
I used the "convinced" word because at that point it was, (by your own admission erroneous info, due to the years), but I was willing to accept it if you could give me some validation!! (thinking outside the box)
Sometimes posts get missed in the, back and forth banter, until after you go back and read them again!!
Published stuff has been known to have errors in them also, so when you told me to check out the info on Google, I did, and then it too told me that the jumpered A-B terminal was wrong, which validated to me that your info was wrong!!
I'm willing to accept things being different, but I need the validation that it is in fact good info!!
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Re: timing mystery
you do realize old *** balancers spin over the years and become way off from where they should be thats why you never trust the balancer mark when installing a new distributor
#35
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Re: timing mystery
Hello sparkplug619!!
I used the "convinced" word because at that point it was, (by your own admission erroneous info, due to the years), but I was willing to accept it if you could give me some validation!! (thinking outside the box)
Sometimes posts get missed in the, back and forth banter, until after you go back and read them again!!
Published stuff has been known to have errors in them also, so when you told me to check out the info on Google, I did, and then it too told me that the jumpered A-B terminal was wrong, which validated to me that your info was wrong!!
I'm willing to accept things being different, but I need the validation that it is in fact good info!!
I used the "convinced" word because at that point it was, (by your own admission erroneous info, due to the years), but I was willing to accept it if you could give me some validation!! (thinking outside the box)
Sometimes posts get missed in the, back and forth banter, until after you go back and read them again!!
Published stuff has been known to have errors in them also, so when you told me to check out the info on Google, I did, and then it too told me that the jumpered A-B terminal was wrong, which validated to me that your info was wrong!!
I'm willing to accept things being different, but I need the validation that it is in fact good info!!
FWIW, I used to own a toyota supra and toyota celica a while back and I would use the diagnostics terminal (jumper te1 to e1) to set the timing. I know toyota is a completely different car but they are all OBD-I.
Same with the engine codes, jumper the diagnostics for the 'check engine' light to blink
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Re: timing mystery
i guarantee either your balancer spun or your off a tooth or so on the distributor. you know what your advance on the dizzy could also be bad. try this hold a set rpm and see if the timing jumps around or stays consitent. not trying to be a dick but do not try timing your car with jumping the terminals
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Re: timing mystery
i guarantee either your balancer spun or your off a tooth or so on the distributor. you know what your advance on the dizzy could also be bad. try this hold a set rpm and see if the timing jumps around or stays consitent. not trying to be a dick but do not try timing your car with jumping the terminals
Also notrying to be a Dick but you guys can believe the diagnostics jumper trick doesn't work but I do and i give up feeding the evidence to support the idea. I know it works because I've been doing it in obd-i systems for years. If you guys dont want to accept that it works then that is fine with me. Until someone can prove it the ecu still advances the timing or it damages the obd-I system then i will stick by this idea.
There are more technologically advanced obd-i engines I have worked on That require terminal jumping to set timing. And this info is not from a haynes or chilton but from the factory service manual.
Thank you
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Re: timing mystery
hey chevy lovin,
Did you ever get your timing issue figured out? My timing mark on the balancer is also way to the left of the cover marks. I set my base timing at exactly 6* with the est wire disconnected. However, as soon as I reconnect it the timing goes way back to the left.
Does anyone know if this is normal while the ECM is contolling spark advance? If not, what would cause this? The car starts and runs fine but this seems strange to me.
Did you ever get your timing issue figured out? My timing mark on the balancer is also way to the left of the cover marks. I set my base timing at exactly 6* with the est wire disconnected. However, as soon as I reconnect it the timing goes way back to the left.
Does anyone know if this is normal while the ECM is contolling spark advance? If not, what would cause this? The car starts and runs fine but this seems strange to me.
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
hey chevy lovin,
Did you ever get your timing issue figured out? My timing mark on the balancer is also way to the left of the cover marks. I set my base timing at exactly 6* with the est wire disconnected. However, as soon as I reconnect it the timing goes way back to the left.
Does anyone know if this is normal while the ECM is contolling spark advance? If not, what would cause this? The car starts and runs fine but this seems strange to me.
Did you ever get your timing issue figured out? My timing mark on the balancer is also way to the left of the cover marks. I set my base timing at exactly 6* with the est wire disconnected. However, as soon as I reconnect it the timing goes way back to the left.
Does anyone know if this is normal while the ECM is contolling spark advance? If not, what would cause this? The car starts and runs fine but this seems strange to me.
That's why the underhood label tells you to disconnect the tan/black stripe wire, so that you can get a proper reading for the timing mark, as opposed to a false reading while the EST is functioning!!
Try timing your motor with the tan/black stripe wire connected, doesn't work too good!!
In otherwords, the timing mark "looks" to move to the left with the EST connected, but it's normal, just always set/check the timing with the tan/black stripe wire disconnected, you can't go wrong!!
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Car: 1988 GTA
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Axle/Gears: 3.45 posi
Re: timing mystery
Hey 87IROC-DAN,
Thanks for the reply. As I stated above, I set the BASE timing at 6* as per the label under the hood. So yes, with the EST wire disconnected. I just wasn't sure if the timing should change that drastically from the base setting at idle. I didn't remeber it doing that before I replaced my ignition module which is why I was curious. Just wanted to make sure I didn't have another problem. Thanks for the input!
Thanks for the reply. As I stated above, I set the BASE timing at 6* as per the label under the hood. So yes, with the EST wire disconnected. I just wasn't sure if the timing should change that drastically from the base setting at idle. I didn't remeber it doing that before I replaced my ignition module which is why I was curious. Just wanted to make sure I didn't have another problem. Thanks for the input!
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Car: 1988 Firebird Formula WS6
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Re: timing mystery
I tryed setting my timing yesterday and had the tan black wire unplugged. car was warmed up, but the weird thing was the timing would still go back and forth from 20's to 6 back and forth and then stall after trying to run at 6 for a while.
What would cause timing to still advance? I also have an erratic tach problem on hot days im trying to figure out.
What would cause timing to still advance? I also have an erratic tach problem on hot days im trying to figure out.
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Re: timing mystery
ok the engine idles high after started with est bypassed timing in 20's
then rpms drop to idle and timing remains at 6
it will go back and forth in rpms staying at idle shorter every time untill it finally dies.
do i need to advance it more to 10 degrees?
As for the erratic tach i tryed reinstalling my old coil no difference, then I installed my old ignition module and that made no difference other than a long crank and code 42.
then rpms drop to idle and timing remains at 6
it will go back and forth in rpms staying at idle shorter every time untill it finally dies.
do i need to advance it more to 10 degrees?
As for the erratic tach i tryed reinstalling my old coil no difference, then I installed my old ignition module and that made no difference other than a long crank and code 42.
Last edited by 88formula305tpi; 06-02-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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Car: White 1987 IROC-Z
Engine: 305 TPI LB9, 215 HP
Transmission: Borg-Warner T5 NWC
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 7.75 with 3.27 ratio
Re: timing mystery
Hey there. I'm not the one with the timing issues if your referring to me.
Also notrying to be a Dick but you guys can believe the diagnostics jumper trick doesn't work but I do and i give up feeding the evidence to support the idea. I know it works because I've been doing it in obd-i systems for years. If you guys dont want to accept that it works then that is fine with me. Until someone can prove it the ecu still advances the timing or it damages the obd-I system then i will stick by this idea.
There are more technologically advanced obd-i engines I have worked on That require terminal jumping to set timing. And this info is not from a haynes or chilton but from the factory service manual.
Thank you
Also notrying to be a Dick but you guys can believe the diagnostics jumper trick doesn't work but I do and i give up feeding the evidence to support the idea. I know it works because I've been doing it in obd-i systems for years. If you guys dont want to accept that it works then that is fine with me. Until someone can prove it the ecu still advances the timing or it damages the obd-I system then i will stick by this idea.
There are more technologically advanced obd-i engines I have worked on That require terminal jumping to set timing. And this info is not from a haynes or chilton but from the factory service manual.
Thank you
I bought a factory service manual for my 1989 Camaro IROC-Z, and you won't guess what I found in the manual!!!
It says to check the timing, follow the underhood label, however, if the label is unavailable, ground terminal A - B on the ALDL!!
I take back the that I called on you!!!
One advantage of this way, is that it doesn't set a code 42, if done properly!!
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