I love my AFR 195 heads. They have to be one of the best out of the box heads you can buy. Just bolt them on and go. My car was on the dyno and I could not get the needed traction on the roller for a decent dyno run. I am going to run my Hoosiers next time. Gotta love those AFR heads.

 

if i do a 350-383 motor those would be the heads i use ...out of the box they are the best period !!

 

Interesting the way the thread has turned out...with that said here are the pics i took for those interested.

http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...ay%2011-28-10/

 

Well they are kind of the standard, every test I seen they always come out on top on the dyno compared to other heads of that category, mind you I haven't been looking the last few years. Let's face it they do produce good numbers to boot so ya over the years the have become the "standard" in my book anyways and I'am sure others as well.

But hey my loyalties can change in a heartbeat if you got better fix elsewhere let me know I do suggest maybe starting your own thread about it though since this one is already full of off topic bs.

 

thanks for the pics lot of nice looking cars there who el camino is that?

 

Thanks for the pictures, Btw that's my ugly looking white camaro that put those numbers down.

As far as my exhaust goes it's a single in/out 3 inch magnaflow muffler. I might be switching to a corsa cat-back just to change up the sound

 

Question for ya, i see you had the stock camaro intake track off in the first pic was it used during the run?

 

During the final run it was off but it only made a slight difference. We were just trying to see what a better cold air intake would do. So thats next on the list along with a few other ideas . I guess my LS2 build is going to have to wait

 

did you run lean on the dyno ?

 

Prior to the tune it was running lean, but thats where Kevin did his great work.

 

topteam54, hows your drivablity with that cam in there, idle and vacuum ok?

 

I like it, prior to Saturday it was running real lean. Hasn't been long but I can tell the difference and I'm getting used to the cam. It's bad enough my tach gauge isnt working. As you can see from the pictures I took the car apart and slowly putting it back together. Car use to be T-Top car now is hard top, swapped auto for Tremec 6-speed(the kit, not from LT or LS), put a moser 12bolt. It's been a very expensive project that is not even close to being completed

 

Have you had to smog it yet?

 

i was just curious cause the other guy in this thread said your injectors were to small ..

 

I havent passed smog yet but it hasn't come up. Why would my injectors be "too small"? My buddy is using same injectors on his C5 with about 480rwhp. A lot of people have a lot to say on her but yet don't put that "knowledge" to work.

I'm more than open to answer any real questions, but "that other guy" isn't he letting his 13 year old kid work on his car also, or something like that.

 

Wow so those numbers were produced with the stock airlids. Im sure more power could be made with a modified one.

All this is getting me really excited for my motor. I cant wait to see what the miniram would do.

 

The LS has different injectors, and the flow on those is too small too if he's running 480 RWHP on 30s. He needs 42s there.

If you're putting nearly 400 HP at the wheels, 30 lb injectors are too small unless you are running 4 bar. They just are.

What was your AFR on the dyno? 12.3 is the goal under acceleration/power requirements. Thats where you get maximum HP.

I've seen too many people melt pistons and break things because of too small injectors, and I honestly believe 36 lbs would be better suited to this application. Leaves just enough headroom if you have another injector fail or something else go wrong. It will run 80% duty cycle.

It's my 2 cents, I'd like to see you in bigger injectors, but that's just me.

 

Man, you're such a cliche'... I couldn't even come up with a better parody.

That's nice, you get a gold star and the adoration of all your teenage friends... now you're one of the group... Validation in a box for the insecure!

Traction is not a measurement of performance, I'm sure you know that. Feels good, and typically produces crappy times. Unless the goal is to impress friends and neighbors by melting tires and getting smoked by a camry....

Let me know that the times are.

 

Anyway, back to the topic.

The other thing I'd find interesting about this is the stock 48MM TB. I think if left alone, the results would have been slightly better. It flows plenty of CFM for that engine to get to peak VE. More, won't help, and in some instances can hurt.

I'd be interested to understand the thinking that a 52MM TB was necessary. What were the CFM requirements of the engine that determined the extra CFM was warranted? I see GM putting out 550 HP crate engines with that TB so I have to figure it was plenty for this.

Here's my confusion.

In another thread I was told that on a cylinder head it is preferable to have a smaller port to get the "forced air" effect. That going to a bigger port with more CSA to control the air delivery was met with complete disbelief and was told that some of the things I say "amaze" people.

NOW, when the theory is applied to a throttle body, it's just the opposite.

I'm pretty confused now to the thinking and would like to understand the decision making process that went into securing a bigger TB other than WAG or simply parts pulling.

Thanks for the opportunity to learn.

 

I don't know about you, but I have work to do, I can't sit around in front of my keyboard all day, but here goes....
Yes, we have tried 48mm and 52mm and 58mm TB's, you are right no gain on the 58mm one.

Yes, we have observed the injector pulse width with 30# we are at 70-75% duty cycle with pressure set at 45-50#'s. With smaller injectors and more pressure the spray pattern is better.

Yes, we do like to see the CSA increased in the heads and the intake where necessary.

 

do you even have a freakin car dude ??? you do talk alot of **** to guys that have cars ... so how fast is your almighty third gen ?? let me guess you dont have one ... lol

 

changing the pressure will effect atomization and typically also effects the dead time and other characteristics of the injector. 50 PSI isn't too high. 80-100 PSI is.

Either way, more changes when you increase pressure and typically requires a retune. Nothing wrong with doing it. I just perfer a bigger injector if F-PSI starts cresting 70 lbs or so. Atomization takes place when the fuel hits the intake valve...

Oh well,back to work.

 

No , I have a 1990 corvette. thanks for asking. It's fast enough, again, thanks for asking.

It's not my first one either, and probably won't be the last.

But good defense of your position. I especially like the well thought out coherent nature of your positions backed by indisputable facts, science, and example. It's knowledge like this that I like to absorb and learn about. I appreciate the lesson.

Signed,


Clueless.

BTW, i love these threads, I sell more product when this stuff flames up! Keep it up guys, it's good for business!!!

 

Hey InjectorsPlus, did you go by another handle of Jsup on other forums? Just wondering.

 

Don or Topteam54 is there a graph or any other data besides the peaks we can all check out? For the 2-3 of us in the thread that wasn't there.

Any reason you didn't use the Fbody Magnaflow catback? When I got mine I found the I-pipe is only 2.75 inches, then flares out to 3 inch as it gets to the over axle. Not any info out there about this or I wouldn't have bought it my self.

 

YEP! That's me. I've said that a few times here. I see you got the PM and probably a scathing report about what a jerk I am....COOL!

And yes, before you point it out I was banned because a vendor asked I would be banned. Which I'm sure was in the PM. On two forums as a matter of fact. (well one and 1/2 anyway) Ya know...heat...kitchen all that good stuff. Something I'd never do as a vendor. I didn't even attack anyone like we see in post 71 here. I don't understand the hostility.

So anyway, maybe now we can engage in intelligent well thought out discussions from now on and stay away from the personal attacks and "poking" as you put it. It would make for a nice, informative discussion that I hope everyone can enjoy. Not everyone sees things the same way and open and intelligent discussion is the way to present different ideas. Not to take those people who see things differently and attack them for it. Ya know, when everyone in your immediate group sees things one way, perhaps a fresh look at something wouldn't be a terrible thing. Open minds forest/trees and all that.

Warm Regards....

 

I can understand having a little richer AFR to be on the safe side of things but you can't just say you will get maximum HP at that level of AFR, every engine is different and there are plenty of examples out there that run a leaner mixture for max HP.

Well in the same argument it's not like GM made any other bigger throttle bodies for them to pick out of.

 

I agree. Every combination is different, I'm talking about "generally accepted" goal, a starting point. It's not hard and fast but serves as a place to start. Most good tuners will shoot for around 12.3-12.5 if power is the goal.

True, but it's still 550 HP. the point is when a TB is listed it gives the impression that it was necessary or valid performance requirement. A good throttle body is a few hundred bucks. All I am saying is on that point, to mention that it doesn't really matter so the next guy going out to build a similar combination knows not to spend money there if he has a choice. How much money is wasted on bigger throttle bodies that doesn't need to be? Lots as far as I can tell.

Hell, I have a 58MM on mine, but it's a 427 SBC, not a 355. So it requires a bit more flow. The 48MM was too small for my engine, and I sold it with the stock intake, so I had to buy something, so I went as big as they come. Thinking forced air down the road.

 

Well to be honest there is not much to be gained from a larger TB anyways but for some every little bit counts.

 

"YEP! That's me."

I kind of thought so and that is why the queston was asked. No PM's but it is interesting how ones personality comes through when they post. I love my AFR heads.

 

I use to have the Magnaflow catback on my 99 SS and didn't like the sound or the look. On my Iroc I previously had a 3 inch catback from another company and didnt like that sound either so I just wanted to try the sound of a single in/out 3 inch magnaflow. I have a corsa and gmmg sitting in my garage that I might swap over and see how it sounds and if any dyno difference.

As far as the dyno graph Don is the one that will probably post later.

 

yep thats what i meant. and thanks for posting some extra info don and vincent.
I figure with my edelbrock heads (way smaller than 195's ) and intake Ill be lucky to put down 300@ wheels but its a good starting point

 

All right people lets keep the name calling and bickering to a minimum PLEASE. We are all adults so lets keep it civil.

 

Slap on a pair of AFR Heads, you'll love 'em!
I love my AFR Heads, too!

Bill

 

I've seen that old tired argument about the 48mm TB on that 502 or whatever it is more times than I can count, and its always the same logic... if GM used it on that, it must be ok. Really? Have you ever looked at a crossfire intake? GM made a whole lot of those, and apparently someone at GM thought it was a good idea. I dont really care if they made 550hp or whatever, take a look at NASCAR motors and see what those do with restrictor plates... which is what that 48mm TB amounts to on a 550hp motor.

 

Dyno Don said they saw no difference on the dyno as has every other dyno test I have seen.

GM performance, and GM Production are two different things.

In production engineers are given a spec and told to build to it. They have to build a car that meets emissions, can operate at all altitudes, last 100,000 miles or more, come in at a particular price, be mass produced, worked on by your basic mechanic, etc...

I know a number of engineers, and in fact one at GM performance. You know that an LS3 motor picked up 100 HP just with an "R&D" ECU, no other changes. It's in my friends C6 as we speak...

It's not that ENGINEERS can't build something that makes a ton of power. It's that the guidelines they are given to design in, the parameters, necessitate that they do somethings they don't want to do and have to make sacrifices.

A very good friend's dad was an engineer for GM. He recently died. His job was LOCK CYLINDERS. His job was to take $.50 out of the cost of a lock. On a four door, that's $2.50 per car. Doesn't sound like a lot right? Multiply that by millions of cars.

He wasn't designing a lock HE would like to see, he was doing it within the rules given. THAT is why you see things like the crossfire. It was marketing and penny pinchers, not engineers choice.

 

You assume only GM has engineers?

We can sit here and theorize all day long. While you're throwing out theories, go talk to all your engineer friends at GMPP and ask them why the E-rod LS3 has a 90mm TB. If you had a twin bore TB only considering the same area, that would be two 63.6mm holes. So, apparently, both the production motor and the 'Performance parts' motor have oversized TB's.

 

[QUOTE=InjectorsPlus;4748471]
I know a number of engineers, and in fact one at GM performance. You know that an LS3 motor picked up 100 HP just with an "R&D" ECU, no other changes. It's in my friends C6 as we speak...

QUOTE]
are we talking it gained 100hp over the LS1 with no other changes than you mentioned above???

did you forget the
LS1=5.7
LS3=6.2

LS1=GenIII heads
LS3=GENIV heads non-cathedral port rectangular heads like L92

LS1 cam= 202/210 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.496" / 0.496" int/exh lift
116 LSA

LS3 cam= 204/211 .551/.525 117

LS1 throttle body= 78mm

LS3 throttle body= 90mm

LS1 head specs= Chamber 66.67 cc 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.550 0.600
Intake 200 cc 67 122 178 215 219 223 227
Exhaust 70 cc 52 97 133 156 170 176 180
Valve Diameter Intake 2.00"
Valve Diameter Exhaust 1.55"

LS3 head specs=

Lift - IN EX

.100 106 48
.150 142 85
.200 172 116
.250 198 143
.300 231 171
.350 253 193
.400 276 213
.450 297 225
.500 314 230
.550 323 234
.600 324 237
.650 327 240

stock LS1 injectors= 26-28#
stock LS3 injectors= 41#

vast vast differences to pick up the "extra" 100hp ... totally different engine from the LS1-LS3... especially in the head design and intake manifold... not to mention the increase in displacement... so no... you're wrong that is was just a "R&D and ECU change"...

 

back on topic..

nice job on the engine Don, you are seriously the best smog legal TPI engine builder out there. I need to get on the ball and get a 350 short block and find a decent set of heads to even see your tail lights from a decent vantage point... ahahaha

 

What I get no credit? I did have some involvement in the build, especially in the $$$$! Portion of it

 

ahahahah sorry... yes the "dinero" makes the difference in what Don and Kevin and squeeze out of the engine..

 

What? I don't get any credit either? You wanted to get what I had just to try to beat me.

 

[QUOTE=KiLLJ0Y;4748693]Umm...no I'm not wrong. It was an LS3 that put down 100 more HP after the ECU change.

To be clear...started out with XXX HP and ended up 100 more by swapping the ECU.

He's in So Cal. His first name is Doug he has 5 or so corvettes from chrome bumper to a new one. I'd be more than happy to introduce you so you can hear it/see it straight from him.

To the point, the car is detuned to support structured requirements. Engineers don't decide how a car operates, the marketing/regulatory/bean counters do. That's how you wind up with things like the cross fire.

 

So a bean counter told a GM powertrain engineer to make postage stamp sized intake ports? Yeah.

 

No, they told him to build to a set of criteria and those postage sized intake ports fit that criteria. They don't tell them HOW to build it, they tell them what the result should be. I don't know what criteria they were given at the time to produce that result. But I am fairly certain that the engineer did what he had to do to meet the criteria.

 

[quote=InjectorsPlus;4748797]this is such b.s. !!! i have a ls3 corvette and have been on the dyno many times and have had help from the best corvette tuners out there .. you are not going to get a 100 h.p. by changing the ecu .. try talking this crap on the c6 corvette forum .. where do you come up with this crap !!

 

[QUOTE=ray jr;4748924]you know whats funny, you wanted to quote him.. but quoted me instead.. with his writing... ouch

 

[QUOTE=ray jr;4748924]OK, fine. I'm lying...you win.

Why so hostile?

BTW, the best tuners in the world, are working for manufacturers....

If you didn't see it, it didn't happen because you know everything.

 

[quote=InjectorsPlus;4748951]not hostile , i just happen to own a 2008 corvette and have tuned on it for the last couple years .. and we happen to have some very good tuners on the corvette forum that dont work for manufacturers ..

on a side note it is kinda funny that every topic that gets brought up you have a buddy or customer that has done it better .. never nothing you did..i know a few people out there like you ..living through other people's accomplishments .. lol

 

Fairly certain eh? Truth is, you have no clue.