Good deal ill try blowwing out my lines here in the future. I have had no issues running with higher octane fuel but still want to fix the issue. Race fuel is not cheap.

 

I don't get it. So what is the verdict? You had your fuel pressure regulator set to high?

Its not at all surprising that its easier to pump with a lower fuel pressure.

 

Or maybe you're not reading other people's posts because I just wrote a couple of posts before yours how I fixed mine and I got that solution from other TGO members who also fixed theirs doing the same thing.

Apparently some of these symptoms may come from different issues and some of our cars are being fixed using slightly different methods.

 

I didn't adjust my FPR to get it back operational. "Just" replaced the sending unit (rollover valve frozen closed), fuel pump, tank pressure control valve (wasn't opening after I replaced the sending unit) and charcoal canister (probably didn't need to but the rest of the system was new so why not that).

I think we all agree it can be a number of contributing factors. Everyone just needs to figure their problem area/areas out. I have now driven my car in the Fort Worth heat (100*-107*) since replacing the above with no issues. Been to 1/8th tank of gas, had lots of pressure in the tank, even smelled fuel vapors from the canister after it idled for 20 minutes, but not one stall or hiccup.

 

I had them adjust my timing and fuel pressure to get the best run possible.
Well immediately after that my car started having the heating/stalling issues (even though my car never goes over 190* even in traffic)

Seems to me a major part of the answer is right in front of you^^^^


I believe the ethanol mixed in today's fuel had something to do with the massive shrinkage.

Yes I concur

Tank pressure has NOTHING to do with it. Too much pressure only helps the pump do it's job and reduces vaporization.

what about when the HOT fuel is released into the manifold? Im believing this is where some of the stumbling is coming from. also when the regulator releases the fuel to the return line is it still Under High pressure? not quite there is a release then of course it gains slight pressure (not as much PSI as feed) during the release i'm sure the fuel is vaporizing at that point..

 

To begin, I only posted my fix to my problem just as an example of how ANY restriction in either the feed or return fuel lines will ultimately cause the specific problem of heating/stalling that a lot of people seem to have. All other driveability problems need not apply. Also, I had the fuel pressure adjusted at a shop and just assumed they adjusted it to 43psi as I requested, and upon this assumption I ran in circles trying to fix a problem that technically shouldn't have happened at all if the pressure was adjusted properly. Most people replace the pump and everything is fine, but IF their fuel lines have a restriction, then the problem usually returns in a few days, weeks, or even months as the new pump begins to fail under the strain of trying to hold pressure with very little flow. Also, don't forget to blow out any clogs in the sending unit lines as well, since that's a common place for material to build up since it stays submerged in the tank.

When HOT fuel is sprayed from an injector into the manifold behind the valve, it meets the cold air charge from the throttle body and vaporizes (which is a good thing!). Cold fuel at ambient air temperature will not vaporize quite as fast and will not produce as much power since liquid gasoline does not burn. Ever wonder why when a pot of boiling water spills over, the water almost evaporates instantly, but if you spill cold tap water on the counter it takes forever for it dry up. Optimally, you want the fuel nice and hot (without boiling in the fuel rail) and in the intake air charge as cold as possible. Now the fuel does transfer a lot of heat to the air, but I would take slightly warmed air with great vaporization over cold air with little vaporization any day!

There is a small amount of pressure in the return line since all the fuel has to be pushed through a long line all the way back to the tank. But I doubt the fuel would vaporize after the regulator unless the fuel temp was at the boiling point already (at probably 2-5psi). Not that it would really matter a whole lot since it's just being returned to the tank anyway. Of course the cavitation bubbles could eventually erode through your return fuel line, but that's a whole different matter to discuss.

 

Just the other day, I helped my dad replace his 99 Ford Ranger Fuel Pump. I read the specs and it claims to sustain a pressure of 63 lbs. My dad has had Ford Rangers since the stone age and Ive NEVER heard his howl. The only noise that I have heard is the fine tuned ultra high frequency noise of the whine. The question is, would installing one of these pumps solve the problems we are having?

 

The engine bay is tight and the fuel line runs along side the header pipes and down next to the collector, the fuel inside the line gets hot and your engine starves for fuel. Solutions: do not use headers, re-route fuel line away from headers, have a fuel system that constantly returns fuel to the tank and keeps fresh cool fuel flowing through the line.

 

Incompairison to the Walbro, the Ford Ranger Fuel pump looks almost the same, other than the length of the pump. So, does anyone thing it could work (put Ford pump into the Camaro)?

 

Normally I would agree with that but I installed a new motor this year and installed headers. My fuel lines go real close to them and I drove in some serious 90+ deg heat this year without an issue. At first I was using the crappy external summit fuel pump without issue and now I am running a Bosch in tank pump. The current pump is so quiet I think something is wrong when I turn the key on.

I kind of believe some of the issues is people replacing their fuel pumps with airtex junk from autozone which just don't last very long.

 

What's the part number to your Bosch FP?

 

BOSCH 69218

I got it from Rock Auto

 

Think I posted some pages back I had low pressure but good volume. Engine would barely idle and would stumble on pushing the pedal. Put in the racetronics pump. Drove a lot the past couple days in 90 humidity and 90+ temps here in S FL. 10% ethanol, 160-200 deg in rush hour. Idle to WOT no problems. FWIW...

 

Ive been just about 1k miles without any noises with stumbles/stalling and its been 80-90*... Only did it when it was 100-106*.... I did wrap my lines with a foam pipe insulation and heat tape in the engine bay down to the trans..... my fuel pump is acting fine and im glad i didnt replace it (yet) haha I honestly think some of us are having diffrent problems. but then again. I've been trying to read (LINK) but my brothers two year old keeps giving me migraines with the screeching. Glad i don't have kids.

http://pubs.awma.org/gsearch/journal...44_08_1004.pdf

 

So far what i got out of it. Quote

Weight loss, temperature, pressure, and humidity were monitored as lab-blended E10 and base
gasolines were evaporated concurrently from glass cylinders placed on balances located side by side under an exhaust hood. The
averaged results of four tests at about 70°F showed that the E10 lost more total weight to evaporation than the base fuel, but less
gasoline. The increased weight was due to ethanol, which was present in the E10 evaporative emissions at concentrations of about
13 weight percent (wt%)

E10 fuels lost an average of about 5% less gasoline than their base fuels.

End quote. and thats at 70*F Too bad there wasnt a Test at 100* so we are losing the ethanol to evaporation before the gasonline. Which is good in a way..

 

Cool, I was giving some solutions, there are others. We had 105 degree heat this year, when it is that hot my car will only stay running if I keep above 40 mph or turn on the radiator fan to keep air blowing out of the engine bay at slow speeds, I have a mechanical pump.

 

Do you have a Clear Fuel filter?

I know my issue isnt a Faulty pump. Ive driven all over the place and havent heard a peep back there. It hasnt been hotter than 95*f in the past two weeks. and i havent had any issues in the past two weeks.. Coincidence? Who knows. We cant tell what we are putting in our tanks. We assume its E10. But in real life all the additives and what happens at the process plants, theres no telling what were are buying. The best place to start:

Heat Wrap all the fuel lines I used home Plumbing Insulation with the adhesive ends, and wrapped all the way around both lines. then Wrapped with the Heat tape. It helped quite a bit I think. but i only went from the motor down the uni-frame rail to the trans... Should have gone all the way i suppose. when its 100* out side Measure the temperature of the Road Surface. I believe its a contribution of all the heat. even the muffler.

You said it yourself. Going down the road its fine.

My question: Why didnt these cars do it Back in 1990 or whatever year your camaro is. I honestly think its the fuel. with all the Shi* going on in the world it wouldnt surprise me.

 

They did not come with headers.

 

Headers or not, underhood temperatures are hot, just like any other car. Duh.

 

Much hotter with headers than cast iron manifolds. Duh.

 

Still hot with or without.

 

I beleive GM was way over thier heads when they wrote about the fuel rail. This is straight out of my 86 GM Mechanics Shop Manual.....
fuelrail.jpg?t=1345870807

 

Might I add, I fixed my noise. No more noise with low fuel, temp today reached 106*, stop and go traffic. OOOO yeahhhhh!!!!

 

Time to sign off on this thread.......

 

ha-ha Yea this thread is getting ridiculous. Giovanhalen: We've already been over the fact many of us dont have headers.

Why doesn't this happen to other cars? Transverse motor with fuel lines no where near the exhaust manifolds. and Plastic Fuel lines and PWM pumps would be my first guess.

Its shown that New pumps didn't Resolve the issue every time.

I think its a combo of problems in some cases. such as a bad winding in the pump, which sounds like what Chevy86iroc-z was dealing with. since it howled at 40*.. Mine Does Not... Why his isnt howling at 106* like Mine does... who knows. But Mine isnt doing it now, and all ive done is wrap the part of the lines. When it was Howling I filled with New gas and it Stopped howling immediately. and I'd feel inside the Filler tube and it was HOT.. I cant say it would burn, but i didn't leave my finger in there long enough to find out. Even the fuel lines under the car were too hot to touch.. Maybe my pump is bad and it is heating the fuel, and the Excess heat from the motor is too much.

If your Having these problems read through and figure out what situation fits yours the most... My advice:

If your pump Howls when its Cold or Shortly after start up. you should check for restrictions and heat sources 2inches away min. If the fuel filter is okay or you replaced it, and still having issues its a good chance your in need of a pump.

If your Pump howls Only After/during sitting in traffic at 100+*f. but never at nite or cool days.... Fill your tank or add 4-5gallons of fresh fuel, unleaded is more than fine. Your a Victim of extreme heat.

 

Before you do let me ask you, did you replace your FP for the Bosch that was mentioned a couple of posts ago? What fixed your problem?

 

Sure. I already has the walbro FP. So I threw that in along with the fuel return line diverter disk, blew out the lines, changed fuel filter, and wrapped the lines next to the exhaust manifold. Done deal. So I'm not sure what fixed it.

 

If your wondering what the fuel diverter disk is, its on post #45

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...51-post45.html

 

Zig where did you pick up a new charcole canister at? They don't sell them anymore. I have looked everwhere. I would sure be greatful if you told me where you got yours. Thank

 

Wow Chevy 86 that is good new! That is awesome you fixed the problem, i know that was driving you nuts like the rest of us.

 

Haha. Yeah it was. On a side note, I think vendors sell just the charcoal filter. There are canisters out there. I saw one about 3 weeks ago. But I don't remember where.

 

Congrats man! I'm glad you've got yours finally fixed! For the rest of you still having this problem, here is a simple complete fuel system overhaul procedure that will almost certainly fix your hot stumbling problems:

1. Replace fuel pump (even the cheap ones work fine, people just kill their new one most of the time because they still have restricted fuel lines and this overheats and kills the new pump over time)

2. Blow out the feed and return lines, the sending unit, and fuel rail with compressed air (if air will not blow through your fuel rail then replace your FPR).

3. Replace the fuel sock (usually comes with the new pump) and in line fuel filter.

That's it! Your car will drive exactly like it did in 1985! You don't have to add the fuel diverter at the end of the return line, but it won't hurt anything to have it. You don't have to wrap your fuel lines. I didn't, and I have un-coated headers with no problems and the fuel lines run within a 1/4" of them at the frame rail. And of course, during your fuel system overhaul procedure, don't forget to check all your fuses, grounds, and wiring associated with the fuel pump to make sure it's getting proper voltage.

 

Thank you. Might I add, the gas that I use has ethanol. So Ethanol was never a problem in my case. Hopefully that'll debunk the "it's ethanol" theory.

 

Change the Mechanical one next to the block or the in tank one?

 

This thread is mainly about TPI cars so we are talking about in tank pumps.

 

We just put a Bosch in my 1987 after getting a bad OOTB ep381. No noise. NONE. No stalling issues. None. Power comes on a little smoother and easier than it did with stock EP241 pump. I really did my best to break it in test run, down to Pueblo and Canon city in 95 degree heat with A/C on - up and over to Salida w/ same. Engine got REALLY hot (another story) but car just kept on going. NO fuel delivery issues at all. I have no headers, and ALL gas in Colorado has 10% ethanol ALL the time. Now just to see how long the bosch will last. But so far, i'm pleased (esp at 23mpg with a/c on going over mountain passes at 90+ degrees!)

 

Crap, I have a Carbureated L69 powered 1984 Trans Am with two pumps (by the block and the gas tank)

 

I had the same issue after I installed my Flowmaster cat-back. The day I installed the exhaust, the car would sputter and die randomly. I could re-start the car and idle it, but when I tried to accelerate, it would just die around 30 MPH/2500RPM. If I waited 2 hours, it would be good to go for another 30 minutes or so. Fuel pump was overly noisy and more than usual pressure in the tank. Not a coincidence.

I solved my issue by adding two additional heat shields between the muffler and the gas tank (In addition to the stock one). I also wrapped most of the pipes in that area with header wrap. I talked to a tech rep at Flowmaster and they know that heat from their mufflers is excessive and messes with fuel systems, that's why they made these shields.

Here are the products I used:

Flowmaster Muffler Heat Shield:


Thermotec Kevlar Muffler Cover:



Thermotec Insulating Wrap:


I can touch the muffler after 15 minutes of driving and not get burnt. Before, I could fry an egg on it. I have not had any fuel pump noise/stalling issues since. The Flowmaster shield is a direct fit, the Thermotec Kevlar shield has to be trimmed. Thermotec makes some really nice products IMO.

This is not my car, just an example of what the final product will look like:



I'm not saying this will solve everyone's issue. You should all still make sure the EVAP system is working (Charcoal canister/solenoid/control valve, EGR valve, gas tank pressure valve, lines, etc) i replaced all of this as well before realizing that all my stuff was fine and my issue was really heat related. Hope this helps someone.

 

Ok so I solved my issue. Like it's been said before your problem might be specific to you so I'm just saying what I did to solve mine.

I believe my main problem was a crappy airtex pump from oreillys I hastily put in about a year ago. I ordered the racetronix hotwire kit that comes with a walbro 255 and installed it about 2 weeks ago. While I had the tank dropped I replaced the entire sending unit as well.

On my old sending unit the line that comes out of the tank and goes to the evap canister was almost completely broken off right as it comes out of the top of the tank. I feel like this was also a huge factor in my problem.

I ALSO bought and installed that flowmaster heat shield mentioned in the post above mine because I feel like the aftermarket mufflers contribute a ton to heating up of the fuel being right under the tank.

In the two weeks since I've had everything installed the car hasn't even hiccuped. It hasn't been nearly as hot as peak summer temperatures but yesterday I did a 45 minute drive in about 95 degree heat each way, on about a 1/4 tank which would have surely stranded me before. I'm confident my issue has been completely solved and I urge people that still have the problem to take the time to install a quality pump, and make sure your EVAP system is functioning correctly.

 

I'm interested to know if it was the Heat Shield or the Fuel Pump that actually solved your issue, since you replaced both at the same time, you might never know.

You could take the heat shield off one day and see if the car acts up...then you will really know what was the culprit. Anyway, glad to hear you solved your issue. I'll be doing my fuel pump this winter in my garage just cause it's old and probably time to do it anyway...not looking forward to it.

 

I fix my prob by putting my 195 tstat back in and lowerd my muffler from tank problem never came back yet after a few months fuel pump was getting to hot fast from lower tstat and car could get back cool enough

 

Its funny that my GM Shop Manual states that the TPI fuel rail was designed to "cool off" the heated fuel by separating the rails from the hot manifold. Go figure. :lmfao:

 

310cid: How does the different Tstat relate to how hot the fuel pump will get?

 

Yeah, I was asking myself the same question?

 

If you are having trouble with your Fuel Pump whining I have some suggestions. This was my situation. I bought my 91 Z28 with 71000mi and the fuel pump would whine extremely loud when it was hot outside regardless of fuel level. The pump would also whine whenever my fuel level would drop below half. I had a strong smell of fuel almost all of the time. I did not have a drivability problem.

I have resolved this problem.
Install a new AC delco fuel pump. I got mine from summit racing. You need to get a new fuel pump strainer as well. If summit doesn't have one you can get the correct one fro NAPA. These two parts should only run you around $80.00. Yes it sucks accessing the pump but it has to be done. Be sure to get a new fuel filter as well.

I have run my tank down intentionally as low as I could without running out of gas and no whine. It wis winter where I am at so I have not been able to see if the higher temperatures effect the pump. There have been a couple warm days but only up to about 65.

I dont know if this helped but wen I replace my pump I also disconnected the fuel lines from everything in the engine compartment and the fuel filter and blew air through them with my compressor. If you don't have the proper procedure for replacing the pump, let me know and I can help you.

Good Luck

 

good read!

 

I had this problem for monthes. Almost went carb. First thing I changed was the fuel pump (one in car was a walbro), I went with a new delphi from a carquest, to have the same problem two weeks later, I then changed ecm, alternator, wrapped fuel lines, ignition module, fuel filter twice. Then after replacing everything at all having to do with the fuel system I changed the pump again, this time with a new sending unit. I haven't had one problem since and that was almost a year ago I would say. I've driven the car in 100 degree whether and my pump is silent. When the car was dieing it would gradually get louder and louder. Just my experience. I also have shorties, and a flowmaster muffler fuel lines are not wrapped nor relocated, nothing has been modified in tank. Just new parts.

 

Here is something else to ponder.
http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-f...-line-plumbing

 

This explains why I had so many issues with the external pump with the carb sending unit. The carb sending unit doesn't return the fuel at the bottom of the tank like the EFI unit. Ever since I Installed the EFI unit with internal pump the problem is gone for me.

Also I believe people installing more pump than they need is causing some issues as well. Having such a large pump on a stock setup causes a ton of fuel to return to the tank when compared to a stock spec pump.

 

Well the video explains my strange sound when my fuel was low. Good link.