Neighbor only goes to the shell station because of the Nitrogen enriched fuel. As for the ethanol, I'm just rolling with the ball that everyone is rolling in this thread. I should stop rolling the ball since it is just a rumor. Since everyone believes that the return line has super heated gas, has anyone tried to install a small cooling coil with a fan just like the B&M?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/4...39da761a7a.jpg

 

Sure if you have the problem immediately, then its probably a pump issue. For most of us here the issue doesn't arise until the car is driven for a long period. Any car can have a pump issue. There is nothing wrong with the idea of an in tank pump. Every new car today uses in tank pumps.

 

Does anyone having the issue have a stock muffler? The aftermarket one I have is considerably closer to the heat shielding then the stock one, maybe they generate more heat, thus heating up all the gas inside and the pump also. Combined with the high outside temperatures it doesn't sound too crazy that it could lead to issues. Just throwing it out there.

 

I would think a stock muffler would hold more heat because its more restrictive.
A aftermarket should let the heat out faster.

 

I didn't spend a long time reading every post on here because man there is a ton. My fuel pump has done the same thing for a while now. I would open the cap and tons of pressure would release. My simple solution was to buying a new fuel cap. My old one didn't release as much pressure as it should have. I haven't had a problem since, even in 100 degrees plus weather. I hope this may help.

 

I could see that, I was just speculating.

 

I have a TPI and the FP is basically new. As soon as I turn on my IROC, I get pump whine. But my pump whine occurs if I'm under half a tank. Even in the winter, at half tank, I get the whining sound.
I have the stock headers and y-pipe and I have similar issues. But my Camaro doesn't turn off or or stall after a long drive.

the new fuel caps don't vent period. Thats the job of the evap canister, to retrieve fuel vapor from the tank. Haven't you seen when a smog test is performed the technition does a fuel tank test to see if the tank is completely sealed. If there is a leak somewhere, you wont pass emissions.

 

You probably hear the whine when the tank is less than 1/2 full because the pump is no longer completely submerged. Fuel is a good sound deadener. Either way I don't see the big deal regarding the whine. Mine doesn't whine at all. But still dies after 1hr.

If it doesn't turn off or stall whats your problem? That sounds great to me.

 

The whine. Duh

 

I,ve got 2000,s aand 90,s models and I'm having trouble with everything.I don't think it's the fuel pump whine,duh.I've got stuff having problems that never had problems.I,ve had to repllace a Tahoe,Vette and Mercedes pump twice.OEM p[umps were the only thing that worked.I swear there is something in the fuel eating the seals,impeller bushings,whatever.I,m getting sick of it.The Mercedes is an external pump on the frame rail and the fuel pressure regulator on the engine had to be replaced too.I'm going to figure it out.!~!!panhead201

 

Ethanol is not the problem. Ethanol has a lower boiling point the gasonline. And when combined with gasoline it lowers the over all boiling point of the mixture. Stop blaming the fuel.

 

*UPDATE* I just pulled my sending unit from the tank....again. This occurs more times than I open my doors. Anyway. I checked out the little puck attached to the bottom of the sending unit. Right where all the tubes exit the tank. This little puck is connected to the purge line the goes to the evap can. I assume its there to stop liquid from entering the line when the tank is full. I attached a hand vacuum pump to the hose side of it. I was able to get 20 in mg, while continuesly pumping. If I stopped pumping, vacuum would drop to zero in about a second and a half. I then gave it a rap with a screw driver handle, heard a little ping, and now there's no more vacuum when I try the hand pump. When my problem occurred I could have launched myself into orbit with what exited that filler tube. I did not have this issue last year in the summer. My breakdown happened on a day when it was in the low 70's outside. I don't think there should be that much of a restriction for that evap line.

 

Where i am in Canada. The shell 91 pump says right on it "Does not contain ethanol"

 

So I've decided to use the new back up pump seeing as I had lying around. I think it was for a late 80's 5.0 L mustang. Exact same as ours aside from the pump output being on the wrong side. Just had to rotate the pump so it would line up properly. I went and fabricated a little trough to redirect some of the return flow away from the pump pick up. It's welded to the bottom of the return output. If this doesn't solve the problems I'll be at my wits end. I can't be doing fuel pumps every 2500 kms.

 

Who cares about the whine, LOL. If you aren't having an problems, well, you aren't having any problems.

 

Exactly. So the mixture is easier to boil. So after running the car for 1hr, and getting the fuel heated by the header and muffler, perhaps the fuel gets just hot enough to boil, preventing the pump from pumping. That could easily explain my none of use had this problem years ago, but do now. Just a couple of degrees could make a difference.

 

I think we all know the problem is hot fuel, now we just need a valid solution.

 

Its easy. Where is the heat coming from?

In order of importance
1. headers/manifolds
2. muffler
3. intake manifold temperature

Once you've identified the sources, the solutions are easy.

1. in order of effectiveness
a. move lines further away from headers/manifolds
b. ceramic coat or header wrap headers/manifolds
c. put fiberglass cover over fuel lines
d. build metal heat shield between header and fuel line

2. a. ceramic coat or header wrap muffler
b. add further heat shield to gas tank

3. a. isolate fuel rail from intake manifold using heat insulating washers (fiberglass, titanium, nylon, ceramic)

I am personally doing the following:

1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, and maybe 3a

 

Chevy86, so you and everyone else knows, my reply about shell not being pure gasoline wasn't a dig at/or directed at you or anyone else here. im on a few other message boards and from time to time i see the same thing about shell not having ethanol and i hear it from a good number of people on my job too.
so its all good and no worries


EDGE, a lot of you to the north are lucky, so far as i know your government hasn't mandated the use of ethanol in most of your country,.... yet.
when you go south across the border, finding pure gasoline is the exception.

for those of us stuck in the land of corn bred gasoline, http://pure-gas.org/

 

Agreed. Shell around here contains Ethanol.

 

I don't believe I ever mentioned ethanol,you did.I said fuel related problems.But to your point,Ethanol doe's have a lower point which seems to me would create problems,don't you think?I know therre,s a lot of people having problems though.Mine range from a Bobcat,which has the same carburetor as a Model A,a Zenith,to a Merceres that changes the fuel to air ratio based on altitude among other variables.So I'm perfectly willing to listen to yous explanation of what is doing it,now that you've decided what is'nt.panhead201

 

 

I should restate this Ethenal raises the boiling point. So it takes much more heat to make it boil. 175 degrees Gasoline is closer to 145* So when the two are mixed it raises the boiling point. But that depends on how much ethenal is added.
Ethenal is not the problem.

 

 

And as I've stated before heat is not the issue, The heat has always bean there, Ethenal has always bean in the fuels used on these cars.Since the mid 70's.I still say you nead to look at the whole fuel system. every part including the emission and vapor recovery system of the fuel system. All gasoliine produces vapors and the hotter it gets the more vapors it will produce.

 

Im sorry but I have to completely disagree. You are simply wrong. Care to explain why all winter my car ran absolutely perfect without a hiccup and craps out on the first 95 degree day of the year? And why my tank has no excess pressure when it happens?

The thread is called fuel pump issues regarding heat so let's keep the discussion to that.

 

Agreed, its a problem and is a bummer. But its not the problem being discussed here. The problem being discussed here is cars driving along and all sudden they stop running. You have a completely different issue.

My pump doesn't whine at all, but I still have the stalling issue. The whining is unrelated.

By the way its not hard to get these cars to stop rattling. Mine is quieter than my daily driver Acura.

 

I just removed and cut open the roll over valve on the sending unit. Considering the size of the vapour line going to the evap can, the hole in the valve that all that tank pressure has to go through is 1/16 that. Add to that two steel ball bearings that plug the hole if the car is upside down. I may remove or at the very least enlarge the hole. I don't think heat is the primary issue, but heat along with a pressure problem is a recipe for disaster. I do think something has happend to the formulation of gasoline, aside from ethanol thats playing apart in this equation

 

I agree with the both of you.Mine will just flat out lose power,coast to the shoulder,heditate,then die.My vette is doing the same thing.And on my crossfire vette,when it happens,I take off the air cleaner,and the inside of the tbi bowls are green.Like a clover,I don't give a s#$%t if it's ethanol or Miracle Whip.It ain't sup[posed to be there. on my tpi's and crossfire,They will not start til the temp drops.Then they start like there was'nt a thing wrong in the first place.Until they get hot again. i gotta keep doing this til I get home.It,s getting old.I spend all my time driving around in a vortec pickup. and I know what you mean about the size of the hole in the recovery system.It looks like an incredibly small hole considering the size of the hose.I think they overcomplicated all of this,I can see the point if it was a dealer only fix,but my dealer knows less than I do about it.Last time I brought it in,they broke the drain off the radiator,then told me it was like that when I brought it in.Charged me $400 plus to get my car back.Called michigan and raised hell.Got my money back and a new radiator.They bought it from autozone.This is getting stupid.panhead201 mine rattles all the time.I let two lbs of air out of the tires.drop the windows an 1/8 of an inch and it quits.My fuel pumps whine all the time. the only time I hear it is on the primer circuit.They have a return line pressure regulator,I'm beginning to wonder if that's not an issue.
I've got a 68 vette 327-375(large journal)bored 30 over stroker clearanced 0/0 on crank and cam.I,m about to build a 1 wire idiotproof motor and be done with it.AFR 2.02/1.60 heads 58cc chambers cause the block is decked .400.Just need some good 2 relief pistons,they'll hit the 4.Tried to download pics,don't know if it worked or not.Victor,Jr,tunnel ram,I don't know.panhead

 

I opted to modify the roll over valve. I figured there would be a good chance of flooding the vent line with gas if I had left it out. Especially with a full tank sloshing around. I took a #26 drill bit and bored out the hole at the outlet of the valve. It's considerably larger now. I also opened up the two gaps on either side of the ball bearing chamber that's inside the valve (Had to cut it open to gain access) There was two bearings inside there, one larger than the other. I chose to leave the larger one out in order to allow more airflow. I then drilled the bottom 3 very small holes on the bottom of the valve with a #24 bit. After all that was done I reassembled it with two part epoxy. There is a significant change in flow now. Both in blowing through it and using the hand vacuum pump. It will be a while before I have any long term report on all this. The holes on the bottom and the output port hole were both about 1/32 of an inch prior to drilling. In other words they were pin holes.

 

If you are getting that much whine and you don't think you have a poor quality pump the only other thing would be insulating material.

I do not recall when I changed mine if there was a rubber strip on the pump mount in the tank. But if there is and you don't have it, put it on.

Also between the tank straps and the tank and between the tank top and the body there should be some insulating material to dampen vibrations being transferred to the body. Put some rubber strips in there.

You can also pull up your carpet and put sound deadening material on the floor. Check out LizardSkin for good sound deadening or go with the cheaper stuff. If you need new carpet too get the mass backing carpet - that will help a lot.

 

You either have the boiling points wrong or your wording is backwards.

A lower boiling point means it will boil at a lower temp and that means it is a definite candidate for the trouble.

Ethanol 172.4 F
Gasoline 100 to 400 F

the reason for the wide range of gas is the molecular weight distribution of the mixture. Some of the lighter molecules will start boiling off at 100, the heavies will finish up at 400.

What y'all need to focus on more is vapor pressure at certain temps. You will get vapor pressures before the boiling points.

http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch07/final/c07s01.pdf page 7.1-63
Gasoline (diff grades) ranges from 5 psi to 16 psi at 100F (most likely gauge and not absolute). Other lower temps available on the pdf above.

Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol) is at 2.3 psi at a 100F.

So yes ethanol will lower the vapor pressure (raise boiling point) but not by that much at 10%.

More than likely the gasoline is not the root cause, its the heat transferred to the gas and the vapor pressure is not escaping for whatever reason.

But the act of the pump pulling a suction on the fuel will lower the boiling point causing the cavitation in the pump. But this is only on the light molecular weight which is a very small percentage of the liquid. IMHO(YMMV) - You should not be getting enough vapor at the pump to cause it to quit pumping. If your pump screen is restrictive this would get worse.

But if you pump in cooler gas at the station and the problem goes away...

Without a doubt when I have had trouble finding problems in the past, it was multiple problems. Concentrate on taking out the variables one at a time.

 

Jesus,could they complicate a vent tube more?Technically cavitation is boiling.at any temp.When the prop on your boat cavitates,the water around it is boiling,no matter what the temp.I did'nt believe when somebody told me that,so I looked it up.

 

Same thing here it sucks, going to be one hot summer to. Getting a bike!!! Faster then the car in the heat..lol

 

I just bought a 55 Olds Super 88 deluxe w/a 40,000mile 324 quadra-junk in it.When you open the hood,it looks like an engine.If you're adressing that to panhead,I think the heat affects the issue.Mine only do it in the warm weather.I don't know if its a design flaw or fuel add,sI just know I'm damn sick of sitting somewhere for 45 minutes while this thing cools down,then it runs fine til it warms up.

 

http://www.pump-zone.com/topics/net-...pshr-and-npsha

mechanically lowering pressure and causing the boiling temp to be lower.

You would have to be pulling around 28 inHg at 100F to get water to boil with a boat prop. I don't know what inHg a boat prop will pull.

http://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm

Note that I said above...
Now, before anyone hollers off topic (and yes some of y'all do), to troubleshoot this problem everyone needs to understand vapor pressure, boiling points and the effect of temp and pressure on them. Same concepts apply to water as to gas, just different data points.

Luckily I am not having this problem yet. Has anyone tried removing the hood to cowl seal to get more airflow in there?



Note: cavitation is different from mechanically mixing air in water. cavitation is happening on the boat prop but a lot of the churning is likely to be just from churning the water. Lower the prop MUCH lower in the water (not near surface) and you will get true cavitation - you'll not see much because it instantly collapses as the vacuum produced is not sustainable and the water is cold. Bubbles will not stay in the water long enough to see it and the cavitation will be on/at the prop.

 

And another thought, if you are building up a lot of pressure in the tank, this will help the pump, not hurt it. But will the extra 5 psi in the tank offset the vacuum and lowering of the boiling point. I would guess it would negate the effects at the pump.

What about vapor locking somewhere in the fuel lines in the engine compartment where the temps are much higher? If the pressures are blocking off something up there in effect blocking the gas from being pumped to the injectors...

If the FPR gets locked up due to pressure in the tank backing up the return line, then any vapor in the fuel line going to the injectors (unable to go to tank) would block fuel from getting to the injectors. This is a somewhat likely scenario.

A way to test this would be to install a bypass valve around the FPR to allow pressure and vapor to bleed off instantly. Worth a try.

Or maybe the FPR is not working properly due to vapor?

 

This is an interesting read.

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/u...H-Blending.pdf

 

FANFAL308,Hi,you're lucky to not be a VICTIM? of this.It,s stopped me from depending on one of my favorite cars to drive.I was a deep hole oil well driller for years and I have some understanding of your post.Tulane,LSU,etc.The more I think about it,the more I think it's regional.Blends from different sources.There's a guy at the top of this page who said he bought a new gas cap and it quit.Nobody paid any attention to him.If you come to any conclusions let me know.I drove my vette to NYC last year and did'nt have any trouble after I filled up in Indiana.Good stats,good read.HELP!!!panhead201

 

Sure I would like to explain.
Yes there is heat building up in your tank. I'm not saying that isn't happening. But it has always happened. When it is cold out gasoline doesn't produce as much vapors. But when it gets above 75* the vapors in a sealed tank. And yes are tanks are sealed, That why they do a pressure test on the tank when it has its emmissions checked.( remember this point.)
When any fluid is heated in a pressurized system the fluid will come to a boil faster than an unpressurized system. All cars since the mid 70's are pressurized. And produce more vapors. I believe your problem is fuel vapor in the tank and that it is constantly being added into your TB, Other wise something there is not working properly.
So now lets just assume that your prolem isn't exactly what you think it is. SO lets check out the rest of the complete system. There are simple checks and test you can do for the vapor recovery system. If you pressurize the tank with the engine off it should hold pressure. Then I would check the purge valve. You can do a vacuum test to see if it is holding vacuum. if it is not then the valve is bad. When these go bad they stay open. So constant fuel vapors are being added even when they are not supposed to. These are two simple test you can do. And if they are not the problem then you've only waisted a few minutes of time doing them. But if the test show something is wrong then replace the part.
No matter what post what your results are here. It may just help someone.

 

This is completely false. Pressurizing a fluid raises the boiling temperature, lol.

Ever use a propane grill? The propane in the tank is a liquid under pressure. It stay liquid in the tank because of the pressure. When you open the valve the propane exits the tank into free air and immediately becomes a gas. The drop in pressure lowers the boiling point of the propane to the point where it immediately vaporizes.

This is high school chemistry stuff.

 

Here is a throurough explanation of how to test the whole evap canister and related parts. Courteousy of me..... https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-solenoid.html

 

Also ever wonder why your cooling system is under pressure? It raises the boiling point of water. I still think it is a heat issue and since our cars are not designed around mixed fuel it is a problem and I don't think these cars are the only ones having this issue. Find a way to keep the fuel cold and it will fix the problem I think.

 

Freon forced through a small orifice creates the high side pressure.I agree with keeping this thread on track but that does'nt mean that heat alone is the issue.TAperf is right about the increased pressure in the tank increasing the fuel pressure.It may be the cause of the whine some peope are hearing.Increased pressure on the impellers may not be a good thing.The EPA and state environmental agencies all have a say in what goes in their fue.The number of additives besides refined petro or methanol is amazing Take your gas cap OFF.Any difference?Not for me.panhead201.I'm sure some of you I'm sure have run nitrous.It's the reason we purge,use electric blankets on our bottles,your injector lines,fuel rails,etc will ice up.cold air,fuel,additives are much more combustible.

 

Well just thought I'd update again, I drove my car for roughly and hour and a half yesterday with the pump gradually getting louder but it kept running. When I parked it, it sat for roughly and hour and then when I got back in it I made it about 50 feet and it quit. Let it sit for the 20 minutes I waited to get pulled home and it fired up and pulled in the driveway. It was like something heat soaked but if the heat source is only the engine, why did I get problems after it sat for an hour? Normally I don't get 45 minutes away from home if its 75 out. Last night it was very cool probably 55 and I made it the hour and a half.

 

Something I have noticed, some of you guys are saying you can drive X amount of miles and the car quits or its on the dyno X amount of time and quits.
I saw someone post 154* fuel tank temp and the car quits.
Well I don't think waiting 5-20mins could drop fuel temp of say 7-10 gallons fast enuff to to make the pump run ok.. Or could it??
Can you really heat 7-10 gallons of fuel to 154*or more in just 30-45mins even with all the airflow of going down the road??

Something in my head is saying its gota be a electrical circuit/connector overheating because I would think that would cool off waaay faster than 7-10 gallons of overheated fuel..
Maybe I'm wrong but 20yr old wires and unknown parts/ mods leans me this way. Of course some bad pumps also....

 

I've driven my car for say 45 minutes in 75 degrees to the movie theater. By the time I got there it was absolutely screaming. It sat for 2 1/2 hours. (Long movie) and got back in it and was still as loud as ever. The car died before I got home. And last night when my car died I had no pressure in the tank and I couldn't hear any pump whine.

 

How old and what brand of pump?

 

I think that the members who have the stalling issues should have a fuel pressure gauge and test the pressure in the morning when everything is at it's normal environmental temperature. Then when the stalling or no start occurs after a good drive, immediately test the pressure during prime and crank. I believe this pressure test will answer a few questions as to whether or not the heated gas in the tank is a concern. If pressure is within the norm, then many something else may be happening. Has anyone tried measuring the resistance on the injectors just after the stall? Has anyone checked for a good spark? What about the timing? Is the timing good with the EST wire disconnected? Just a few ideas to consider.

 

No,I have'nt tried that.I've tried everything I could think of,everything me and everything else everybody on this thread has recommended,no matter how stupid they sounded.PLEASE don't take that wrong,I'm not referring to your suggestion,but there have been some real winners in the 11 pages of this stuff.Yours makes sense.It's worth a try.I'm about to buy a case of Heineken and pay em extra to crush it real slow.Crap like this keeps me awake at night,I'll get up at 3AM and go to the shop and try my latest brainstorm.I've got an off the track vette and it's OK to push,but it does'nt tow very well.It was'nt a beauty queen before this,but it definitely is,nt now.That's why I keep going back to fuel comp,because two TPI,s and a crossfire are all doing it.I AM going to figure this out,sooner or later.Hell,it's already later.Thanks man,panhead201