thatdavidkid

Hi all, this is my first post, didn't see a new member intro section. Here is my problem and the info I have.

87 z28 convertible, new engine, built to factory spec with a later model cam, factory part.
I acquired the car like this, a friend of mine installed the engine, and gave me the car after struggling to get it started for 2 years. The parts I know he has replaced/tested.
Fuel pump, ecu, various sensors, I believe the maf also.
He is getting fuel after the new pump, gas was drained at that time, Injector pulse is good, and these are batch fire so fuel timing doesn't matter, right? It is getting spark, and we have tried starting it with the distributor in every imaginable position. Cam timing has been verified, distributor has been re stabbed eleventy billion times with the same cranking no start with random backfires and occasional pops through the intake.

The car is located in san Antonio tx and I'm located about 5 hours north in Dallas, I am hoping to go get it in a week or two, but am hoping to have a good starting point to continue the diagnosis.

I am thinking one of my next steps should he to re check the valve lash, these are adjustable, correct? Keep in mind, my last 2 projects have been a carbureted 91 mustang, and a turbo 4 cylinder mercury capri, I am fairly knowlegable in general automotive diagnosis and repair, so I think I should he able to get this thing running fairly quickly.

Anyway, any advice or things I should check would be greatly appreciated, and I believed my friend pulled codes with only a " everything ok" code.

tnitz8787

welcome to the board
I would start with-did you check how much fuel pressure you have?and is the firing order correct?

thatdavidkid

Didn't mention those, I have personally checked firing order several times, I do not remember if he checked fuel pressure, but we have added an outside fuel source with no luck.

tnitz8787

check fuel pressure.engines need fuel/air,compression,and spark to run. and there's nothing magical about tunedport engines,so go over the basics and it will run.
random pops and backfires sound like ignition timing issue,possibly 180 out.
and the firing order and #1 cylinder location is different from ford

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

I would first verify top dead center,cause different timing cover or balancer will show different. I would find TDC,remark balancer ,then move the balancer to line up with 6 Degrees BTDC on the timing cover pointer, and then install the distributor with rotor pointing toward no.1 cylinder . It is like a 22 degree line from no.1 on the cap to no.1 cylinder. Then you should be pretty close to correct timing. I mean maybe you have a bad distributor? or even bad injectors? how is the fuel pump or fuel pressure?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Just a thought, what size motor? Is your timing pointer at 2 o'clock or is it hard to see from the driver's side?(12 o'clock)? Tried starting fluid?

85 ZXX

iTrader: (1)

On TPI engines, set TDC on compression stroke, remove distributor and use a long flat tip screwdriver to adj oil pump and set the dist back in place with #1 on the dist cap facing the front of the car. I like to remove all the plugs and turn the crankshaft by hand and place a piece of coat hangar in #1 plug hole to feel when the piston comes to TDC. You may have to re-mark your TDC line on your Harmonic balancer. Someone who built my engine had the timing tab mounted in the wrong place with my 8" balancer and I had a similar problem.

Eagle223usa

Sounds like you need to re drop the distributor. I verify #1 TDC by putting one of those rubber vacuum line plugs in the spark plug hole. When you hit the compression stroke it comes out with a loud pop! Can't miss it! Mark #1 on the distributor base with a marker and use that to line up your rotor. The slot in the oil pump drive shaft should be lined up with the position you want the rotor to fall into. Oh, and don't feel bad. Even I drove a Mustang once, then I got a real job. J/K! Welcome to TGO!

thatdavidkid

Thanks, these are the kind of answers I was looking for. We've tried starting fluid, its definately a timing or compression issue. I will reset the rockers, and then re stab the distributor after finding top dead center on #1. I actually have a tdc finder tool, so verifying the timing pointer is in the right spot will be easy

92GRYTA

my uncle and i had the exact same issue with his 94 ford bronco after an engine swap. couldnt figure it out for the life of us, we went out bought a chiltons manual and figured out that the PIP sensor(hall effect,crank or cam position) was lined up wrong. in other words sure the rotor was pointed at number 1 but the miniture crank position sensor(pip) under the rotor wasnt pointing at one. so we pulled the distrubtor rotated it 90 degrees, reset rotor to number 1 and it fired right up. now i dont know if the gen1 sbc stuff is the same as this for an operating system or not(LSX guy) but it might be worth checkin out.
jason

thatdavidkid

That seems odd since there is a pip trigger at every point on the tri distributor that has a post for a plug wire, but I will sure keep it in mind.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

ours is a hall effect sensor, all that does is tell the ECM that the ebgibe is turning, fire the injectors. if you have injector pulse, the hall effect is working and doing it's job. make sure you are on the compression stroke! i pull the valve cover and watch the valve. resetting lash is also a great idea

Eagle223usa

Any luck with it?

thatdavidkid

The car is currently located about 5 hours away so I haven't been able to work on it. I have a mustang shell that has to be made into a roller so the buyer can pick it up before I can pick up the camaro.

thatdavidkid

Well, the mustang is leaving Thursday so I am planning on going to get the car on Sunday. It'll be a good 11 hour day so it'll be Tuesday before I start working on it.

thatdavidkid

Do I need to pull the driveshaft to tow this car with a car dolly? It is a 5 speed car, so I'm thinking it will be fine, what do you guys think?

thatdavidkid

So I picked the car up Sunday. Got it back to north Texas late Sunday night, and got the battery charged up at work yesterday and turned it over. I tried to find tdc with a tdc finder but when I went to turn the crank bolt, it was stripped...... Dammit. I've decided to drill and tap the hole to a 1/2x20 rather than a thread repair because the hole drilled for a thread repair will be bigger, and will weaken the crank more than a slightly larger bolt. I don't have a garage, only a car port so the cold weather is going to slow down progress... I plan on getting the new crank bolt in and re setting the valve lash, checking true tdc, and finally trying to set distributor timing so hopefully it will start today.

thatdavidkid

I was able to get the crank drilled and tapped, it took much longer than expected because my first 29/64ths drill bit broke in the crank.... I got it fixed and will work on finding tdc and setting valve lash hopefully after work tomorrow.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Welcome to THE DARK SIDE.

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

There is cold weather in Texas? That's new to me, haha. J/K.

thatdavidkid

Yea, I'm shocked. Saturday night I was out until 3 am in jeans and a t shirt, but today I have long sleeves, a hoodie, boots, and a work jacket and it was too cold any time other than 1pm to 4 pm. Will try to get in 30 minutes or so tomorrow night. Maybe get a new crank bolt installed, and get the valve covers off. How can I verify tdc without pulling the timing cover? My tdc finder that goes into the plug hole is at too much of an angle... The piston just hits the side without pushing it like it should... If the keyway is straight up, is that tdc?

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Just take the #1 plug out and put something small in there that wont break off, like a straight clothes hanger, turn the engine over slowly until it comes up, and then you hold your probe in the hole (sounds dirty) and just feel for TDC. I take it you have angle plug heads?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Pull the number one plug, stick your finger in the hole, and turn the engine over by hand until you feel pressure buildup (quench). When you feel that pressure, and you feel the air coming out, align the timing marks on the timing cover, then re-install the plug, and wire. Make sure the rotor is facing number one under the distributor cap at this point. Pull the EST bypass, start the engine and set your timing. Once timed, turn the engine off, re-connect your EST bypass, then disconnect and reconnect the battery to clear the code that gets tripped in conjunction with disconnecting the EST bypass. Welcome aboard by the way.

thatdavidkid

I'm not sure what you're calling angle plug heads but my tdc finder tool does not work on this engine, as the angle is too Sharp. Tdc is not measurable like that, as there are several degrees of crank rotation where the piston is at the top. I will moat likely end up pulling the timing cover back off unless I can figure something better out... Either that or ill buy a new ballancer and the. Set it.... But I don't trust the ballancer on the engine.

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Are you degreeing the cam or are you just trying to find TDC. Either your distributor will be on, or one tooth off. It's not gonna be a make or break thing for it to run.

thatdavidkid

Maybe I need to rethink my approach then, because it does not want to start even though it has fuel and spark... I'll re check valve adjustment and try to start it again.

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Just get the piston up to TDC (roughly) doesn't need to be precise, the distributor will either drop in or it wont, it's gonna rotate a bit, the easiest thing to do is just wherever the rotor is pointing on the distributor, that is gonna be #1 on the cap. There are Better write ups about this that I can think of off the top of my head, but that will get you close enough. The distributor will rotate while it drops down into place.

Then you should be able to set your timing even if it's not running, just by cranking the engine over (pretty sure you can) If it's close, it should fire. Even if it's off a ways, it will backfire, pop, fart or whatever, you can adjust from there.

Have you tried swapping ECU's? These things are so basic, they should either run or they wont, they might run like ****, but it should still run if all of your basics are there, fuel and ignition.

Does it make funny noises while cranking? Have you tried installing the distributor 180*'s out?

Cam and crank are in phase? If you have spark and fuel it should do something. If you have to much or to little fuel pressure the injectors wont fire off. I will read the thread again and see what else I can think of.

thatdavidkid

Ecu, fuel pump, maf, coil, and some other stuff has been swapped. Cam to crank timing has been double checked. The problem is the freakishly cold temps for early December here in Texas. By the time I get home, I'm freezing. I will definately have time to work on it Sunday do I HAVE to have a grade 8 crank bolt? Or would a grade 5 get me by? I could change it next time I have a week day off but my ace hardware by my shop doesn't have a 1/2x20 grade 8...

skibum2100

Does Ace have a stainless bolt that size (pricey)? I would recommend that over a grade-5, even grade-8.

Does the exhaust smell like unburnt fuel when you are trying to start it?

Have you ohm checked the injectors? They all should be 16+1 ohm.

Check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail (yes, even though you are using starting fluid). Is it possible you are flooding the engine? Is there gas in the crankcase oil? Maybe the injectors are just dumping fuel in.

I hope this helps.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

just throwing this out there, i know ford numbers their engines as right bank 1234, left bank 5678, chevy engines are R-2468 L-1357, verify timing, if you have spark and fuel, timing is off, unless there is no compression. also firing order 18436572 number one on the cap pointing towards cylinder 1 on the TDC of compression stroke. rotor pointing towards 1 on the TDC of compression stroke. spin the engine around and watch the number 1 rockers. you will see the closest rocker to you open then close, that was exhaust stroke, the one next to it. rocker will pop open, that's intake stroke, as soon as you see that rocker close, you are on compression stroke, slowly bring your engine to TDC using the timing mark on the damper from there (0 degrees) i rarely see the dampeners spin on these cars. make sure cap and rotor are set properly, make sure valve lash is set properly, (1/2 turn in, i dont care what anyone says, do 1/2) fire your engine. this is assuming you have compression, fuel, and spark. including injector pulse on ALL 8 injectors. this sounds like either timing, spark, or compression.

rgarcia63

There's another member 3rdgenmess who is having the same problem. Might want to read the thread. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...r-removal.html
At last post he still hadn't got it running.
If you suspect the harmonic dampener has slipped you have the right idea, replace it.
Don't mess with the rockers unless you're absolutely sure they're not adjusted correctly, especially if it was running at one time. A compression check should help determined if there's something wrong with the valve train.

thatdavidkid

It was not running ever, the engine was built and it has not fired ever. I am a Ford guy but do have a little ance experience so I'm good on the firing order, but thanks for mentioning. Will an pun test show me if an Injector is stuck? I believe I remember helping the previous owner lift the Injector rail to verify the injectors firing I do smell raw fuel after cranking.

rgarcia63

That fuel while cranking and no start will foul the plugs.
If you happen to correct the root cause fouled plugs will keep it from starting and you'll continue to think there's still something wrong when there isn't.
If it was built to specs then replacing the Dampener would ensure that when the timing tab zero and the dampener mark are aligned on the #1 piston compression stroke it is at TDC if it was assembled correctly.
For that you only need to get it close to BTDC on the #1 compression stroke which would happen if you plug the spark plug hole with a rubber plug of some sort and turn the crank by hand, when the plug pops the piston will be some where BTDC then you continue to turn it till the marks are aligned.
Remove the distributor cap.
If it is correctly timed the rotor would be directly under the #1 distributor terminal.

thatdavidkid

Said screw it and stopped making assumptions. Pulled #1 valve cover to verify Tdc, re stabbed the distributor and installed a good optima battery from my capri and it fired up first try.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

glad its running

thatdavidkid

Guess I jumped the gun.... It runs kinda crappy, may be bad gas, but when I plugged the fans back in and re assembled the intake system to the air filters, and it would not start. I un plugged the electric fans and it started right up. Could this be a poor ground? I saw one ground wire from the battery to the block, where should the others be?

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Should have a ground strap running from the battery to the body, and you could even go from the body to the engine.

That's crazy, atleast you got her fired up. After all this messing around, did you run it long enough to break in the new engine? Now that it's running set your timing. Throw some good gas in the thing.

Are they factory fans? Or are they an addition?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

mines block to clean spot on the body. i dont think theres a difference in which works best, although if that spot gets rusty yourll lose connection, with a battery you wont as long as it always good and attached

thatdavidkid

They are factory fans. I need to decide what to do, I originally bought the car to fix, enjoy for a little while, and make some money, but I kinda like it. I did not break in the motor because I found a pretty bad oil leak right in the filter area but a little higher... Need to check that out. Need to figure out the running issue too because it doesn't feel like its running on all 8 and I don't want to mess anything up.

rgarcia63

In addition to the oem grounding I have battery cables from each head to the shortest run to the frame and a jumper from the intake to one of the heads.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

no that you got it running, check compression make sure all 8 are working, check your wires plugs too because all the starts couldve burnt something, and may now be defective

thatdavidkid

I think if I figure out why it won't start with fans plugged in, it will solve my problem.

thatdavidkid

ok. so the car is running now and definately running on all 8.... it has absolutely no power... the car becomes emissions exempt in a few days, so i'm going to go ahead and cut off the catalytic converter off... the issues im now having are: temp gauge goes over 260 after about 30 seconds of run time, but its not accurate because i can measure intake manifold temp at about 160 after a little while at idle... also the fuel gauge doesn't seem to work (thinking both gauges are off for a common reason maybe?)

in order to remove the whole air pump system, how do i plug the small holes in the exhaust manifolds? i was told they are not pipe fittings so i dont know what i can plug them with.

thatdavidkid

also it seems the car is running hot after driving for a few minutes. i'm a mechanic, but do not have much experience with these older cars, my last pre obd2 car was a carb'd mustang, and a 2.3 turbo capri which has the most simple efi system in the world.

also, i did find one code when i pulled codes with a scanner, maf malfunction code 33.... but i have no check engine light. is it possible it is storing the code from when i had it unplugged once earlier this week? i think i can get ahold of a good working maf from an 87 corvette, will that work on my car?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

if 87 was tpi then yes it will work i believe. as for running hot check waterpump and everything makes sure coolants flowing. i encounteres one person who put the two different types of coolant in their engine and it gelled up may wanna check that.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

MAF code is probably because of un plugging, unplug the brown single connector by the AC receiver and time the motor to 6 degrees BTDC. then plug back in. if the timing is off you'll lose ALOT of power and even make it run hot. as for coolant gauge being way off, replace the sensor in the driver side head. two places to check for oil leak. oil psi sender behind manifold on drivers side. or oil psi switch in oil filter adapter.

thatdavidkid

I'm not worried about the oil leak, I'm sure its underneath where I installed the fittings for the oil pressure gauge... Just didn't get one tight enough or something. I have already set the timing, but I will re check it with 2 timing lights tomorrow. I will then remove the cat and see what happens.

thatdavidkid

Also I know the water pump is working, I can see the flow after the t stat opens.

rgarcia63

I'd go with headers, instead of plugging the emission ports. If you do you'll needed a heated O2 sensor.