fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

I've reading up and doing some research for a while and think a found a decent setup for what I want that wont break the bank. First all I want out of the car is a fun street car that I can take to the track every once in a while so nothing to crazy. The car already has a full tune up and headman headers and y pipe and 2.5" exhaust all the way back to a flowmaster muffler and drop in K&N's and 4:10 gears Oh and the car is an 89 TPI.

Here is the setup i was thinking:
Dart 127121 aluminum, 64cc chamber and 180cc intake runner
LT4 hot cam
1.5 roller tip rockers
SLP highflow runners /w some porting on base and plenium
Mail order tune from PCM's for less
adjustable FPR

The car will have a built 700r4 with shift kit and 2500 to 2800 stall.

What do you all think will this all work well together for a fun street car. Any input will be welcomed.

Thanks,

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Looks like it you have a good plan there. I don't like mail order tunes, I'd find a reputable dyno guy in your area.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

Thanks... yeah when the time comes ill look around first.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

any body else have any input?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, I sure do. Go with atleast a 210 head. Skip the mail order tune.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

210 is a bit big, don't you think?! Especially with a TPI feeding them.

I say 180's will be fine for that setup. The Edelbrock aftermarket heads they designed for TPI cars have 165cc intake runners, GMPP heads are 170 IIRC. This is to increase velocity since stock TPI induction just do not flow well enough for big intake volume heads.

FWIW, I run the Edelbrock heads even with my Accel base/SLP runners. They flow 232 cfm which matches my intake setup within a couple cfm.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

A LOT of people think the heads are to big. Thats old school thinking. These arn't carbed motors that need to produce a vac sig to the carb. And no it wont kill the low end drivability at all, thats the cams job to kill.

I ran 210s with a ported edelbrock base,plenm, SLP cam, headers cat back and ported SLP runners on one of my old 350 motors.
I stepped up from a ported set of Vet heads and I picked up good power everywhere on that same combo.

the GM fast burn heads are 210s, quite a few use them on their TPI builds.
the 346ci LS1 runs 210cc heads and they go bigger from there.

Put 210s on, Its worth it.

weaselbeak

64CC chambers might cost you some compression unless you have them flat milled down a bit. 180's would do you-Flow is great but I wouldn't knock port velocity either. The best is just having everything ported and matched.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

12558060 GMPP heads are 170. Cast iron vortecs.

Maybe my train of thought here is off, but LSx heads have shorter intake runners feeding them...~21" vs ~15" and flow how much more? They run well past 6 grand. Larger intake runner volumes move the curves up, which seems to go against what the TPI is designed to do - low end torque. Not trying to stir up an argument, I'm up for learning something new everyday To me, 180's seem to be a better choice for flow and velocity that's within the TPI's RPM range.

I got a heck of a deal on my Edelbrocks, cam for free, so I gave it a shot. I'll have numbers in the spring time but the Engine Analyser Pro v3.9 program said 433hp/427tq (probably a high estimate)

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

This head is used on many TPI engines nice results.

Fast Burn SB Chevrolet Aluminum Cylinder Head (12464298) Specifications
Assembled or Bare: Assembled
Cylinder Head Finish: Natural
CNC Ported: No
Cylinder Head Material: Aluminum
Valves Included: Yes
Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 62
Exhaust Valve Diameter (in): 1.550
Intake Runner Volume (cc): 210 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Intake Valve Diameter (in.): 2.000
Valve Seat Material: Steel

Here is a GM head 4 a 6.0-6.2 liter LS
Part Number: SD5882-1
Casting Number: 12595364 or 12582716
Valve Angle: 15-degree
Combustion Chamber: 70cc*
Intake Port Volume: 279cc*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Exhaust port Volume: 99cc*
Minimum Cylinder Bore Required: 4.000"

here is a mind bender,
Part Number: SD8926C
CNC Ported 5.3 Heads now available through Scoggin Dickey Parts Center.
Aluminum, Cathedredal Port
862 Castings
2.00/1.55 LS1 Valves
LS6 Springs - Good to .570" Lift
220cc Intake Ports <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< on a 5.3 truck?? hum
61.15cc Combustion Chambers
Our CNC Head Flow Numbers:
.200" 144cfm 111cfm
.300" 199cfm 141cfm
.400" 244cfm 180cfm
.500" 280cfm 203cfm
.600: 286cfm 215cfm

I have battled this myth of the small head vs large head 4 years.
Nothing wrong with a 180cc runner, but y limit your power ??
Y do we port the crap out of intakes and put on bigger runners? Its to help increase volume more than velocity, plus it'll have less restriction. As we know the tpi was built 4 a 305 so we are waaay behind the curve but it can be fixed.
Do you see y the LS flows more? It has more volume to draw from. The same ideas can and should be used on the TPI.
There is a guy on here that has built a kick azz TPI w 2" runners and a lower intake to match. Hes running a 222cc head and that is prolly 2 small.
I ran at track with the stock/small stuff b4, then switched nothing but the heads and went faster ET and had more mph each time. Stock, aluminum vet heads, ported aluminum vet heads then 210s. With each increase I went faster and had more mph. And thats with 0 tuning!
Im now running 235s and need bigger.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

You guys have given me alot to think about... But wouldn't most of this be a little over kill for just for a mild weekend cruiser build. I don't want to go crazy on on the $$$ I put into this engine. If I wanted to do that I would just do an LSX swap and be way ahead to start.

I basically want the car to be fun to drive and not get beat some 16 kid in a riced out honda. Will the set up in my first post do that?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Didn't the aftermarket companies mod the 5.3 heads because of the smaller combustion chamber? Stock runners were 200cc but flow 226/174 at .600 lift. My 165's flow 232/175 at .600. Anyway, LS heads really impress with a little porting! I have a 5.3 in the barn that will be receiving some attention before entering a waiting '60 Impala

Anyway, I enjoy the discussion. I just wonder if 210 is a little big for a street car. Most power would come in from 3000 on (up to 6500-6800 or so?).

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

180cc SBC Street Aluminum Cylinder Head Flow Chart
Tested on 4.060 Bore
.lift@
.200 138I 110E
.300 198I 158E
.400 240I 190E
.500 260I 207E

210cc SBC Aluminum Cylinder Head Street Flow Chart
Tested on 4.060 Bore
lift@
.200 139I 110E
.300 199I 158E
.400 249I 192E
.500 279I 210E
.550 289I 214E
.600 295I 220E

Using the flow numbers for the AFR 180 and 210 heads, how would the 210s make less power down low than the 180s?? The piston has more of a volume of air to draw from,plus the fuel is injected right at the head opening.I wonder how many CCs that fills up? (notsure myself.) It needs a place to go.
More air/fuel in= more power made.
The cam duration,springs and intake tract restrictions is what controls rpm of the motor.(waaaay over simplified on most of this)
Most cams people use on the TPI are very very mild, maybe barely over .500 lift and 219-220dur.

Now if you have the 210s, what happens when your tired of the limited power of the TPI? You pull the intake for a mini ram or HSR and swap the cam.
If you had the 180 heads? Your in for a cam, intake and head swap.
If you really want a 180cc head, why not just have the stock heads ported?
I've been there and done that many times for people..
These are just ideas to ponder......
I'm just tryn to keep folks from buying parts twice..

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

True, but I'm running .585/.575 236/244 at .050

Higher port velocity means better low end torque but less breathing room in the upper RPMs...but the larger port volume might not slow in intake charge all that much due to the runner lenght of the TPI. Never thought about that until now

Food for thought

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What cam you running? What compression.

Fastburns may cc out at 210 cc but that doesnt mean anything. It has a relatively small 2.00" valve. 90% of heads out there now have 2.02 or larger in the 180-200cc range. You have to look at the cross sectional area of the port and match that to the desired operating range for best performance. Too small and you hurt performance, choke the motor and dont get the rpms you need. Too large, and you will have low velocity, poor cylinder fill, reversion and torque loss. Luckily you have a fairly wide operating range with cross sectional areas in which you can still be "ok"

LS's may be 205-215 cc but their ports are longer so no wonder they cc out more. They also have 13-15 deg valve angles or so compared to sbc 23 deg heads. You cant compare the 2. You can compare CSA and port velocity profiles if you had them available and correspond that to engine operating rpm range. LS1 pulls 2000 more rpms than TPI L98, so it can use a bigger CSA.

Again, IMO you cant compare lsx to sbc due to completely different port designs which will effect how air flows and power potential. Case in point, stock LS1 head may flow 250cfm on a bench while a AFR 195 sbc head may flow 280 same lift. 205cc vs 195cc so they are close. BUT that LSx head makes much more power with much smaller cams than comparable sbc build of same cubes. Reason is alot more just flow, but flow quality. Valve angles change the game on running engines that see much more pressure variation in the chamber/port.
Just because you have a bigger head CC wise, doesnt mean more power even if there is an increase in flow on a flow bench. You need to look at Cross sectional area of the port and size that to the motor's requirements.

1989GTATransAm uses the 222cc head for his 369" motor but that is the perfect example of how to size a head for an application. His TPI is lightyears ahead of anyones on this site so far. Its specifically modified and designed to maintain cross section and runner length to support a target HP goal at a target RPM over 6500 rpms. NO box stock TPI you can buy will do this. The heads are sized with a min CSA of near 2.4" square I believe which is the correct calculated value for that 369" motor turning over 6500 rpms. He is targeting a port speed of 350 fps which is considering optimal on just about any motor. Its an example of a well thought out combination and a few years ago, he would have never considered a setup like that, and neither would I until research was conducted to better understand induction and cylinder heads.

I dont want to sound pro-small head as I am running a huge 2.72" square 245cc head on my 401, when I think I could use a 227cc head with 2.5" square CSA. It was recommended by guys with more knowledge than me but you will find that even among top knowledge level builders, they have different thoughts/approaches on how to build a combination.



I dont think runner length has anything to do with velocity, its more cross sectional area. Length has its effects on pressure wave tuning / inertia ram. When you start induction process, you get the air column moving. When the valve is about to close, the air column is still moving and at very low valve lifts before it closes completely, you get an increase in velocity. Then the valve closes and the air column continues to move and it slams back into the valve. The increase in velocity will change pressure differentials across the port and cause pressure waves to reflect back and forth in the intake port. The key is to time the incoming pressure wave to hit the valve just before it closes and before or at when the piston reaches bottom dead center in the stroke. This inertia ram continues to fill cylinders even after the piston stops moving downward, sucking air in. This is how you increase VE on the motor and get a self supercharging effect that greatly affects power output.
The runner length has influence on this.

IMO, a typical 350 motor with shelf TPI parts will do well with a basic 195 head. You are targeting a 4500-4800 ish peak hp and carry to 5k. 180's will work, but 195's will give more room to grow. Lt4 hotcam is not a big cam so you dont need alot of head. 2800 stall is great for TPI. If you used a FIRST TPI with a bigger cam like a 230 XFI setup and near 11 to 1 compression, then hell yeah stick a 210 head on it, it should be fine. 195's still would work great too. But ported stock base and hotcam, I think 210 is too much

You can throw on a 210cc head just fine and it will run pretty good but I dont think it will have the response time a slightly smaller cross section head will have. Case in point, there are 400" motors turning 6500 rpm using 210cc heads and making 550-600 hp. 2.05-2.08 valves. Those heads will not see their full potential on a 350 TPI motor, as the CSA on most 200+ cc heads can support a 350 to 7K rpms. I know my 195's held my 383 strong to 6800 even tho peak was at 6250-6400 (flatline). 195's on 1989GTA's car held strong to 6800 as well with peaks near 6500 but they were pretty much maxed out or near it. Hence the larger CSA was needed to support the flow requirements for that motor.

AFR heads are great street heads since they are a fast velocity port and have great throttle response. For TPI or lower rpm applications I like to recommend them. They come with great valvetrain components and really are a nice bolt on head that have all the L98 head features and accessory locations. Other guys 195-210 cc heads may have different CSA's and will have much slower port speeds designed to support more rpm. TPI may not like that since its a lower rpm application.
My 2 cents

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Why won't you stick with the th350 tranny?

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Also remember that the Hotcam is spec'd/advertised with 1.6 rockers, not 1.5, as you have listed in your build. Not saying you can't go with 1.5's to lower the lift, but I'm guessing that's not your intention.

....also, I think the 4.10 gears are WAY too much for a low reving TPI. No official rule per se, but lots of guys would say that you want no more than 3.42/3.45 gears for a TPI street car. I've got a 3.27/T5 combo with full suspension, and I can still blow the tires off. Short of drag radials, there's not much more I can do.

....and overall, you've got a great combo. Read what these guys are discussing, because this site has a lot of experience, and a lot of knowledge, but don't forget that a "great combo" means something different to everyone. Peak power, driveability, gas mileage, bang for the buck, all requires a different combo. it all depends on what you want, and I think you're on the right track with what you've listed.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

Because driving down the highway i'm reving at 3500 to 4K and thats only at 55-60. I want to go to the 700r4 so I can go on cruises and stuff without breaking the bank on gas.

Didn't realize that must have miss read the specs.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

would I need to get bigger injectors for this setup?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Possibly...22's are good to maybe 300-320whp or so. Not 100% sure on that but I know i've seen 350whp on 24's and that was abit over 80% cycle duty which you want to be around. Generic rule of thumb. That setup should be around that power tho but with extra fuel pressure you may beable to make it. To be safe, i'd upgrade the stock fuel pump to a 255lph setup and 24-28 lb injectors.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

That was actually going to be my next question. So this set up is capable of 300hp to the wheels?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I was wondering why EA Pro was giving me 101-102% VE values


Should be good for around 300whp depending on the cam. You could probably get more but your exhaust might be a little restrictive. Comp Cams has always been helpful with my questions in the past, they can help you find a suitable cam

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Very well stated..
I tend to favor the larger side of things because Ive worked on/fumbled my way thru quite a few diff combos with small heads and its soo fustrating...

Its a great site with a lot of peeps that have tried lots of diff things so it will help but make your decision more complex..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Definately not the first person I seen say this so there is likely something to larger head combos. I've seen relatively larger heads work on some builds but also seen some smaller head setups run well so its really about the entire combo. Usually need to set a hp and rpm goal and use that to size your heads. If you only want 300whp, then heck you can do that with a 180 head. Darn near can do that with stock head if you cam it enough

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yes, the complete combo is important. Gears trans and other things all come into play.
You can make that power with a stock head if you cam it enuff but then your smooth driveability kinda takes a hike. Ive done this and it is cool sounding.
Def good advice. Set a hp goal and try to stick to it.

Lets just hope MR TPI sends his intake to be copied and sold.. that will make all these cars just tromp the crap out of modded LS stuff and leave them scratchn their heads.. All while remaining stock looking..

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Honestly I would go with a beefed up t56. Six speed if you have a 4.10 gear ratio.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

For the car came as an automatic and I don't want to deal with adding a clutch pedal and all that stuff. Plus the I've had manual sports car in the past and they were alright but dirven my friends auto ta and I like the punch it and go idea.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

A 373 is barely highway friendly. You will feel like you need to shift again in 4th with a 373 man.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

Thats what the car came with when I bought it... Ill see how it does and if i still don't like it then Ill switch out the gears.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Dude, I hope its not too much trouble for you to do so. I mean i think a 410 would be usable with a 6 speed manual.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

I was looking through the garage and found that I have a set of injectors from a 6.0L ls motor. From the research i've done these are 24lbish injectors. Would work with either the stock tpi setup or HSR setup?

Marv02

If I was you go full Roller Rocker Arms 1.6 for the LT4 Hot cam.

If your going to spend the money get all with the 1.6 RRA the full RRA's will let use the extra 20 to 30 more HP due less friction of the ball and socket roller tip arms free power other wise.

Just me save the extra cash of and get a set of Comp Cams Ultra pro Maanium steel full rocker YES it is over kill for what your building but they not going to break on you as a DD they go though many Cycles if you read Aluminuns are great but get weaker on each cycle before they break steels dont.

I had a set of off brand Alumiun Full Rocker arm I ran them for 3000 miles I know they could lasted for years but I dont like walking home so why chance it.

I running a PCMfor less in my 383 it works great I sure if I wanted to go with a local custom tune It be nice but for Half the price my PCMforless work great.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Why would you need bigger injectors? Either way, you will have to have the chip tuned to run them. They are too big and car will run overly rich.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Truck injectors? Different connector style if I remember right, they might be taller as well.

Going to need a tune regardless, might as well put in injectors so you don't have to max the duty cycle.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

No, it won't be. 3.73 are probably too much as well. It's the TPI, not the transmission. It does't rev high enough. Doesn't matter how many gears you have, you'll be shifting too much!!!

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

Been thinking over this alot and might be changing the route i go here but have a few more questions:
A couple of you mention milling the heads down to get a 60cc combustion chamber.
1) what compression ratio would this give me?

2) friend that know alot more about engines than i do said i would benifit alot from 10.5:1 or 11:1 compression, do you guys agree with this?

3) By doing this how big of cam can I go to before I start running into problems with valves hitting the pistions?

The bottom end is completely stock.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Original motor? Stock L98 for that year was 9.5:1 (according to wikipedia), milling the heads to 60cc would bring you up around 10:1. You can get even more with a thinner style copper style gasket. Might pick up 3-4% in HP. 10.5:1 is the max I'd run with iron heads (93 octane, 170 thermostat)

The bigger the cam, the greater the difference between static and dynamic compression ratio. My static is around 10.4:1, but with my cam being so big it probably drops the dynamic down around 9.0:1 or bit under.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

The heads would be aluminum.
what about valve clearence at 60cc chamber. how big of cam could i go before i run into problems?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Likely could stick a large enough cam in it to make the TPI and heads a restriction Should have plenty of room but like always, measure it.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Do you have your heart set on Dart heads?

Dart says their heads flow 257cfm at .500 lift. I doubt you will get more flow than that from a ported stock base and SLP runners.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

No not set them they were just the one I found that fit my budget

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

What is your budget for heads? Assembled or will you have someone work them over before bolting them on?

Marv02

Take a lok at these Heads I wish I knew about them before I pruchased My Trick Flows my trick flows are great heads but this other brand more bang for the Buck.

http://www.profilerperformance.com/r.../sbc-23-degree

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

don't really have an excat budget just trying to do it and not completely break the bank. I would buy assembeld heads.

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

Just a curiosity question... How lift can you get out of stock heads that have been reworked with screw in rocker studs?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

screw in studs definately help with valvetrain stability...no risk in pulling a stock press in stud out with high spring pressures but the valveguide bosses are what needs to be cut down.

Not much money to do, 150 bucks i think at a machine shop. Stock heads and a decent cam will get you near 300whp

fonzie85

iTrader: (2)

thats the kind of answer i wanted to hear but any how much lift the stock heads can handle with that stuff done?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well likely ALOT. I'm not sure the limit but I bet its well over what your motor will ever need. If you set it up with longer valves for higher install heights and ground the bosses down, you may beable to get an inch lift out of it...yes i mean 1.000". Hard to say for sure. Doesnt mean it will clear the pistons tho or even make power..more is not better all the time

Stock valves still probably get alot of lift out of it. Well over .600" and I wouldnt run more than .550" on stock heads. Really dont need that much. Cam will use duration to get the flow the motor requires. Since stock heads are small, you wont beable to fully utilize large duration cams, so keeping it in the 220's deg range makes sense since stock heads will support mid 5000 rpm ranges for peak power. It may hold power to 6K with a very large cam but likely not peak any higher. All depends on what you are looking for.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Jeg's has their own heads... found out they are now the same as the Pro-Filer heads. 580 each. 1160 for the pair. Not a bad bang for the buck head, Pro-filer heads are american cast/made. I'd get the 195cc heads and 1.440" dual springs for .600 lift. Should handle a hotcam just fine. 350whp+ capable setup there with a short runner intake. With ported base/SLP runners, 330-340whp easily.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I'd say go with aluminum, but why buy a set of assembled heads just to have them reworked?

If you go stock, I'd think $500 would get you nice set of reworked and ported stock heads (see if they will really focus on the exhaust side).

What do you guys think about the Comp Cams 276HR-14?
Lobe Separation: 114
Intake Centerline: 110
Duration @ .050" Lift: 220/230
Valve Lift: .510/.510 (.544/.544 with 1.6 rockers)