Yeah, after only a day I re-read that post and thought the exact same thing. I'm usually pretty hard-headed and resiliant so I was kicking my own a$$ thinking about giving up on this. I will be picking up the cable and software soon. I'm also thinking about getting the extra hardware and playing with burning PROMs, after it's running of course. However, I need to pull out most of the interior to replace it with the good pieces I have sitting in my garage, so I'll just pull out all of it for clean-up and/or replacement and I'm planning to trace out all the wiring while I have it apart so I can hopefully find a wiring issue somewhere.

Thank you for the moral support. I feel the same way. After all my research and all the knowledge I've gained about 3rd gens so far, it would be a crying shame to give up and move onto something else. I'd really like to get it running and continue to expand my knowledge so I can get more 3rd gens to pass down to my kids.

So you're happy with your 305? I know I was while it was running, and it was almost definitely grossly underpowered from all the problematic old parts it had on it. Once it's running again, I'm positive it's going to puuurrrrr.

 

Your ECM can possibly be fried....!!! I used to have so much trouble with cold starts after replacing my bad injectors, turns out that the shorted injectors fried the ECMs ability to enrich the injectors on a cold start. it used to take me about 20 tries for the engine to finally start. i slapped in a new computer and BAM problem was gone, hope this helps

 

Thank you for your advice. I'm going to be pretty pissed if my ECM is the problem because I already replaced it. If it's fried then that means either I fried it while trying to get the car running or Autozone sold me a bad ECM. Either way, I won't be a happy camper.

 

That is also possible I just want to add

 

Just a VATS Clarification....

There are 3 parts to VATS....
1. Your Key
2. Your VATS Decoder Module
3. Your ECM.

Assumimg you have the original PROM in your ECM.....

Heres how how it works.....
You insert your key, the contacts in the ignition cylinder OHM out on the Resistor Chip in your key. That OHM reading goes right into the VATS Decoder Module. If the OHMs Chip in your Key matches the value stored in your VATS decoder, the decoder sends an OK signal to the ECM. This signal unlocks your STARTER and your INJECTORS.

If the OHMs value does not match, and you trun the key to attempt to start the car, the VATS Decoder locks your ECM for a set period of time (IIRC its 300 seconds).

What your suppposed to see.....
Insert and turn your key, the SECURITY light will come on briefly then go out. This means the Decoder saw your key, lights up while the OHMs value is verified, the light goes out, the OK is sent to the ECM. Turn the key and the motor will turn over.

What you see if theres a problem.....
You insert and turn your key, the Security light comes on and stays on. Turn the key and the motor will not turn over. IIRC, you see all your guages peg out too.

If your starter is turning over....VATS is not your issue. If your running a reprogrammed chip in your ECM, this may not always be true. Unless you wrote the PROM, you'll have to take extra steps to see whats actually in the code.

Basic troubleshooting...
1. Light stays on = Broken or grounded VATS wire. Check the resistance value on your key, insert the key, then recheck and look for that same value all the way to your ECM. They should match. If you get 0.00 OHMS at the ECM, you have a broken wire somewhere between the key cylinder and the ECM. If you get a solid 100 OHM...your grounded out. Check for Frayed wires. If the wires are good, the VATS decoder could be your issue.

2. Light comes on then goes out but the starter wont turn over. Bad wiring between VATS Decoder Module and the ECM, Bad ECM...simply stated, the OK signal from the decoder isnt getting to the ECM or the ECM is not properly processing that signal.

3. Light comes on, goes off, motor turns over but wont start....you have other issues. Then its back to simple combustion engine basics.... Fuel, air, spark. If you have those three things...your motor will do something.

 

I'm really hoping I didn't get a bad ECM, but at this point I would be happy to find the issue. Maybe it could also be a bad PROM because I put a new one in at the same time as the ECM. Is there a way to test to see if I aquired a bad ECM or PROM?

I appreciate the info. I had done a TON of research on VATS issues and after all I learned about it, I decided to throw the VATS bypass in anyways even though I didn't think it would solve the current problem. I figured it couldn't hurt to put it in especially for only $15, but I had also heard of people having VATS problems without codes or a security light. There were a couple of different instances I found online where the TDM had gone bad but the ECM didn't throw a code and it just so happened that the security light was burned out.
______________________________________________________________

So here's what I did a couple of days ago. I checked all the plug wires and the distributor cap to make sure I had them all hooked up correctly. They were good. Then I checked for spark and they all showed spark, but the light in the new test tool was extremely dim. I don't if that means there isn't enough power going to them or not, but it looked very dim. I pulled the dizzy cap and the rotor was pointed at #6. I pulled the dizzy while the balancer was reading 0 and restabbed it at #1. It still didn't run and then after I got to work today, it dawned on me that I didn't pull the #1 plug to make sure that I was at TDC of the COMPRESSION stroke, so I plan to do so and restab it on Friday.

I also thought that maybe the oil pump was dead and the OPS was sending the appropriate signal to the ECM so it wouldn't start, but when I pulled the dizzy out it had oil on the bottom of the shaft. That tells me the oil pump is working, but I don't know to what efficiency. Is it possible that my oil pump is dying and not providing enough pressure so the ECM is preventing start?

After I restab the dizzy, I'm going to start completely tracing every wire I can think of starting at from the engine. I still haven't pulled the interior out yet so I'm going to do that as well and hope I can find a mega wire issue that I can fix and get it running. If I'm getting spark to the plugs, does it even seem probable that there is an electrical issue with the ignition? Maybe my new fuel injectors aren't opening for some reason......

 

Very determined man I must say. I have problems with my camaro too. My idle is bouncy and irratic. I have a massive bog when I start the car when the engine is stone cold but it runs perfect hot. Driving me up a wall. I've ran down every wire, adjusted timing here there and everywhere, hunted every sensor and valv down but still no better. The car just hates me but one day it'll be done.

 

There is absolutely nothing that will prevent you from starting, running, and eventually seizing your engine if there is no oil pressure, The ecm doesn't know or care. Go and get that ALDL cable, go and get it now! There is even a thread on here somewhere that shows you how to make your own..........

 

It's comforting to know I'm not the only one having issues with a third gen. Your Camaro's issues sound like a major headache too. I think my car hates me too, but I'll beat it into submission! You will too. I just find it difficult to stay motivated with it some times.

Good knowledge to have. If that's the case though, then what is the oil pressure sensor's purpose? I read that it is to sense low/no oil pressure and to tell the ECM to shut off the fuel pump to stop the engine before severe damage can occur. So with that reasoning, I thought maybe my oil pump is actually bad and my new oil pressure sensor (and my old one too) were sensing no oil pressure and did exactly what it was intended to do. Keeping with that thought process, I figured if I eventually find the oil pump to be the problem and needed to pull the 305 out to replace the pump, I might as well order a rebuilt 350 to replace it. I'd like a little more power and that would be an extremely easy swap, so that could possibly be in the TA's future. Of course, that is in the extreme case of the oil pump being bad or the engine needing a rebuild.

I understand that the ALDL cable and TunerPro are important tools and I will go get them eventually, but my son is going to be born very soon and I'm done throwing money at the car until at least after he is born.

 

That seems to be a common misconception around here and it is absolutely incorrect. The oil pressure sensor is to feed a signal to your gauge, There is an oil pressure switch on some of these cars and it's purpose is to provide an alternative backup power path to your fuel pump in the event that your fuel pump relay fails.That is all it does it will not cut power to the fuel pump with a loss of oil pressure. I suppose however if your relay was bad and then you lost oil pressure or the switch failed, then the pump would have no power. Haven't you put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to check pressure though?

 

Hmm, I guess that's what I get for researching online. Ha! Alrighty then. I'm still going to restab the distributor to make sure it's in right and then start tracing wires looking for issues. I have checked fuel pressure at the rail. As soon as it primes, it shoots right up to 43 psi. I have recently replaced the pump and strainer. After my son is born, my first purchase for the TA is going to be TunerPro and an ALDL cable, even if it's running by then. I want them because they're pretty awesome diagnostic tools and I may aquire more third gens that I can also use them on. At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that it's an electrical issue. I can't imagine what else it could possibly be.

 

Alright, here's my update for today. I restabbed my distributor and it was a little off, but it's spot on now. I also put the cap and rotor on that came with the new distributor and they seemed to fit a little better than the ACCEL set. Still no start, but my spark light seemed brighter and more defined today than it did last week. I don't know if that means anything. I also picked up a set of noid test lights so I checked my fuel injector harnesses. They all flashed while under crank and had no light while key was in but not cranking.

With my findings today so far, now I'm really positive that I have a bad ground somewhere, or maybe a slipped harmonic balancer. If it cools down today then I'm going to start tracing wires and see what I can come up with. I'm going to pay close attention to the area where wires go through the firewall.

Just throwing this out there: Do you guys think maybe I have a bad ECM? I know I changed it, but it was a rebuild not new. Is there a way to test the ECM or PROM to see if either one are bad?

 

LOL, do i really need to say it? Yes by using an ALDL cable!

 

The simple way is jumping the 2 terminals in the connector, turning the key to on and seeing if the security light comes on. The procedure is listed here somewhere.

 

Ummm, What connector do you jump to make the security light come on? And for that matter why would you want to do that? , And how is that going to tell him if his ECM or Prom are bad?

 

Just rebuilt my 90 bird with 305 TPI. There was a ground wire under the driver's seat that had corroded with the floor (Which was replaced). I assume it was part of the vats system. When the circuit was open, motor would turn over, but not start. when connected to ground, she's fire right up.

 

viper.... VATS is ALL under the dash. The only electrical running to the rear of the car is gonna be lights, rear hatch, defroster...or fuel related (pump).

Chances are that that ground wire was killing power to your fuel pump. That explains the 'turning over/no start condition' you were experiencing. If it was a VATS issue, your starter would not even turn over.

 

I greatly appreciate all of the POSITIVE tips and ideas from you guys. Thank you for all the help from those of you who have actually given me decent input WITHOUT rude comments.


MaxPowerTA, thank you for your wildly sarcastic and crass comments. How old are you? 15 maybe?

 

I hardly think my comment was crass or rude,You asked for advice on how to test the ECM and PROM and i gave you a valid answer, In fact pretty much the only valid answer short of putting the ecm on a test bench and putting the prom into some other equipment which i am sure you do not have. If you wish to continue fumbling around for the solution to your problem without using the proper equipment I wish you luck. Perhaps i will check back with this thread in another year or so and see how you do.

 

lets not get off subject by starting to fued with each other. maxpower was not being rude as i see it. i think more than one person here made the same suggestion. if it helps, i bought my cable and adapter that came with a disc for around $40. i down loaded the free version of the program. i have not used it yet, but will to diagnose my problem. i hope if i have a solution it helps you and everyone else that has the same problem.

i have a 305 with a s/d tpi conversion from a tbi. last week, i lost power and the speedo, with no codes to show, and now it doesnt start. after reading through the this thread, ive concluded my problem, and yours, is not the vats.

in the next few days when im off i will plug into the laptop and post the results. This may be where you find your solution as well, or at the least, eliminate one more possibility.

 

I have never seen a bypass module though even though they might exist. Another option would be MOATES.NET and by the G1 G1 Memory Adapter and a 27SF512 Chip
get someone to burn a chip for you to remove the VATS option all for about $40. Takes 15 seconds to burn the chip and 2 minutes to install into ECM..

 

My intentions behind the question about an alternate route for testing the ECM and PROM were more along the lines of where I might be able to find a place with the test equipment that might do the test for free, like Autozone will do with a starter. I shouldn't have even asked on this thread because I could have called around. I was hoping someone on here knew of a place like that. I took your response to my question as an insult that didn't answer the question. I really do appreciate the tips you have given me. I wouldn't worry about checking back on the thread in a year though because I won't be fumbling around with the TA any more.

I took a second read of this page of the thread and now I see that MaxpowerTA interpreted my question in a different way than I intended it to come across.... I wish you the best of luck fixing your issue. I also appreciate your intensions of posting your findings. I won't be needing them now, but maybe somebody else on here will need them.

 

Did you ever get things running and sort out your issue?

 

Nope, I sold it a few weeks ago. I picked up a '65 Chevy C20 and started a frame-off restoration. I'm much happier now. :-)

 

oh man sorry to see you gave up on her.

 

I was hoping that my 30 minutes of reading would solve the problem but if anyone could point me out to a no cost solution, I am 17 and right I am going to high school, I have a 1984 trans am which ran very nicely, bought it during the summer, drove it 2 hours home. then drove it very little since. just started it at least once a week. just recently i took it out to put some iroc rims on it and when I was putting it on the half foot platform i made for it (half a foot high with a ramp) it stalled, i assumed i was not giving it enough gas because this is only the 2nd time I put it there seeing as I finished building it 2 weeks ago. yesterday some friends came over and wanted to see it so I started it and reved it a bit and then turned it off. I wanted to run it around a bit today but it would not start, the engine just spun but it would not start so I just put my foot on the gas and pushed it all the way it could go and then it started but it only ran at low rpms and when I took my foot off the gas it turned off. the engine shook the car alot when I got it to start by pushing the gas and i really want this car to be fixed, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jeremiah

 

Thats a totally different issue. You should have a carb on that car so start with checking the entire ignition system, check out the carb and fuel pump

 

can you tell me how to check for those? and doesnt the fact that it starts rule out the fuel pump? also it might be the carb (that is where the air goes in correct?) because i have one of those hoods with a vent thing in it and right now I do not have space in my garage for it and it rained on the car (car started after the rain tho but still could be the problem) and it also got a bit colder so if that could be the problem...

 

Send me a PM and I will try to walk you through it one step at a time the best I can

 

if it starts and runs at all, then it's not vats

 

ill upload a video if that helps and i believe i have the 305 high output with a four barrel carb, i took the lid off the what i believe to be the carb (circular thing on the top of the engine) but i have no idea what I am looking for

 

start your own thread in the appropriate section on the forum

 

Don't be. I'm thrilled with my new project! I sold the T/A to a guy in Finland. Hopefully he can have fun with it. I'd be willing to bet he'll be the only one there driving around in a '92 T/A drop-top.