Considering this route and kinda weighing out options, but am looking to do a little homework first
My question is, if i went the Vortex Route what year Vortex Heads and Intakes should i be looking for?

There are a few being sold locally at a fair price but am not that educated in the vortex.

Thanks

 

Vortec heads.

Requires a special Votec-specific base manifold from Scoggin Dickey that goes for about $400. Holley Stealth Ram intake is also available in a Vortec-compatible version, if you want to go away from the factory-style TPI system alltogether.

 

I've been researching this topic for the last year. My advice;

You want to avoid the either of the factory Vortec heads (063 or 906), as they are too thin of a casting and extremely prone to cracking in the center bolt hole and center exhaust ports. I have personally pulled 5 pairs in a row from the junkyard, from both castings, and found this to be true. Scoggin-Dickey and RHS both offer bare and assembled Vortec heads with thicker castings that eliminate this problem. Scoggin-Dickey also has 3 different sized runner versions of the Vortec heads, and offers them already machined for greater lift (.550" max) and larger valves. The stock Vortec max valve lift is about .460", which limits how radical of a cam you can run with the heads. Another bonus of the Scoggin-Dickey heads is they have both the Vortec and traditional intake bolt patterns, so a Vortec-specific intake is not required. You must use Fel-Pro Vortec conversion gaskets if using a non-Vortec intake however, but the folks at Scoggin-Dickey will help you find the right ones. I have also heard this is best as a temporary solution, as it can lead to sealing problems between the head and intake due to the differences in runner design.

As for lower intakes, Scoggin-Dickey and Edelbrock both make high flow Vortec TPI lowers. Either is a flow improvement over the original TPI base, itself the most common source of restriction in the TPI system.

The gains in this setup have been explored in the past. Car Craft has played with the idea, and others have done the upgrade. Look to spend about $325 per head (bare) and $400 for the intake. Vortec heads are reputed to be worth in the range of 40hp straight out of the box, but this will vary based on your particular setup. If going with the Scoggin-Dickey machined heads, be sure to properly choose your intake runner size. Smaller displacement TPI engines will benefit more from smaller intake runners that have higher flow velocities, which create more torque and better throttle responsiveness. http://www.jegs.com/s/tech-articles/...hey+Make+Power

 

Vortec is the name GM gave to all it's truck engines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine

The heads you are looking for are off '96 -'00 vehicles and have only 4 bolt holes for the intake.
Some sellers try selling the reg 6 bolt heads as " Vortec" heads because they came off a earlier Vortec truck engine

 

Wow, Thank you for the answer, I think you nailed about 3 questions at hand...I really appreciate the answer.

This is really a hard direction to decide on.
Ive considered the LT1 approach, but then started to consider other options so not to just jump into a swap for more power. I am a TPI fan (soft spot) and really like some of the other vortex builds (although not many). In short, the car (87GTA) needs a little of everything and want to give attention on other aspects but still want to get more power.

Only I think I will go with the flow sorta speak and aim at a Torque Driven Beast. Its not like i will be flying around town at 140mph, so focusing on the lower/mid range power is were i like to start.

i will be pulling motor in Jan to freshin the L98 and will be looking to get the best bang for my buck locally.

The vortex approach seemed very interesting and so i wanted to look further into it ( thanks for the info, all replies) def gives me a place to start.

Question is really going to fall into the Cam choices, I wouldnt mind a loop, LOL

anyway, thank you again for the reply

 

Yeah, i guess i should of specf what i ment but kinda fig ya guys knew what i was looking for. Thanks for the note (6 bolts vers 4 bolts) this is something i will keep an eye on

 

We all know what you were talking about but some sellers don't ( or pretend they don't)

Read
http://www.onedirt.com/tech-stories/...k-chevy-heads/

Reg SBC has 6 bolts a side





Vortec has 4 bolts a side , 2 at front and 2 at rear , straight up and down as shown on this aftermarket
intake

 

Comp Cams website has a fairly decent online dyno program called Camquest that you can register to use for free. The only limitation is it only uses their in-house cam profiles for the calculations, but it lets you enter data for just about everything else. Car Craft played with it last year using several of their real-world builds that they had dyno'ed and found the Camquest power estimates to be if anything 10hp on the low side of actual, fairly consistently. Play with this to see what kind of cam profile you would like with your setup, it was helpful for me.

I would advise against the LT1 route. It is a significant investment for little overall gain, is a relatively dead-end upgrade with little aftermarket support, and significantly shifts your powerband into the mid and upper range killing low end torque. It's a decent swap for someone with a 355-up small block that wants to run big hp numbers and has the ability to spin high into the rpm band, such as a track car. But for a street build the TPI system, with it's bottom end torque, is the more appropriate selection. Now I know I'm speaking blasphemy right now to all the TPI hating LT1 lovers on Thirdgen (who shouldn't be in a TPI forum ANYWAY), but if you do your homework on both systems you'll most likely come to the same conclusions I have.

Two other suggestions for you: LS swap - Considering you are going to be investing upwards of $1200-$1500 to upgrade to Vortec heads, and the average Ls swap costs around $2500-$3000, you might want to look at this route instead. The LS engines are becoming more affordable, there are tons of guides on what is needed and how to install in a 3rd gen specifically, and the upgrade options, longevity, and power output and efficiency of these engines makes this a very viable option. Cost can also be kept down by how you source your engine. After researching the Vortec swap for my car, I came up with the alternate idea of finding a Craigslisted wrecked 99-02 Z28, SS, Trans Am, or Formula with a running engine. The 98 cars use a one year only computer that is not easily reprogrammable, and should be avoided. Ideally I want to find one for less than $5000 with rear end damage. This would allow me to pull the ENTIRE LS swap from one car as a complete package, without having to worry about any compatibility issues. a lot of the cost of the LS swap comes from having to individually source items such as the fuel tank, transmission, accessory brackets, etc. If these can all be pulled from one F-body, they will swap directly over without issue into a 3rd gen. The added bonus is that since they are originally from the same running drivetrain, you will have no worries of compatibility. You may also be able to swap over interior parts such as doing a 4th gen dash upgrade, seats, etc. The next step is to strip and post as much of the wrecked remainder of the car on Craigslist as you can, hoping to get at least $500-$1000 back out of it. The SS wings alone routinely sell for around $300. Finally, take the remaining hulk and scrap it, which should bring between $500-$800, depending on current steel rates and how much is left of the car. Ideally, you want to pare down your investment to under $2500. This seems to be the most economical and easiest path to an LS swap I've found, and saves a lot of parts sourcing headaches. It does however require the available space to both strip and store a 4th gen until you can unload the parts and dispose of the car.

The second suggestion if you choose to remain with either a TPI or LT1 setup is to look into a DIS setup for it. There are several solutions out there, Car Craft (I have a subscription, ok??) did a recent article on upgrading an LT1 to DIS last year for about $1200. This is also because they went with a lot of pretty billet aluminum parts, but stated in the article a lot of the cost could be pared down by using junkyard components instead. Mallory and MSD both make dual cam and crank position sensing distributor replacements specifically for DIS purposes. The Car Craft build gained torque and horsepower throughout the power band, and used less fuel than stock doing it. As economy was a big push in my desire to upgrade with Vortec heads in the first place, the added gains from a DIS system just make sense. The total savings between the two upgrades could easily pay for themselves in less than a year at current gas prices. Here's the article if you would like to read; http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...n/viewall.html

Here's the link to Comp Cams Camquest; http://www.camquest.com/

 

Lots of info in this thread, and I'm not gonna throw in my 2 cents on every point, but as someone who also has a soft spot for TPIs and has also considered the vortec option, here are some thoughts.

Just a couple things. As for the intake manifold, Edelbrock is the only company making it. Scoggin Dickey's manifold is just an Edelbrock manifold with the SD logo. Regardless, is DOES flow better than stock, BUT...not by much. You can port it (more money) but even then it won't flow as well as a tradition aftermarket TPI manifold.
Also, as stated, the factory vortec valvetrain won't handle lift over around .460". This is easily fixed, BUT....again....more money is involved in making them handle more lift.

Here's what my research and opinions lead me to. AGain, just my opinion. Bang for the buck. With a vortec TPI manifold, as it comes out of the box, a used set of vortec heads, and a mild cam with lift under .460" you could probably spend less than $1000, and you'd get a lot of bang for your buck. This has been done, and typically, people with realistic expectations are happy. .....what I see a lot of people do however, is they shoot for more "bang", and then they lose track of the "bucks"!!!! Without going into TOO much detail, having a machine shop work the heads/valvetrain to accept higher lift, negates the value of the head. At this cost, they're about the same as a low dollar "traditional" aftermarket head. PLUS.....you'll want to port the manifold too, and that adds cost to an already expensive vortec TPI manifold, and it still won't flow as much as an traditional aftermarket TPI manifold. My personal goals are to build an engine with a low RPM/high torque operating range, a cam around .500" lift, and an efficient head with a runner between about 170cc and 180cc. Again, just ballpark specs. Dollar for dollar, I don't think there's much benefit of going the vortec route with these modest goals in mind.

You have to set your goal, and then add up the costs. It's too easy to get caught in the loop of saying that just a few hundred more and I can get better heads, then just a few hundred more and I can get a better intake, and then I just have to upgrade the suspension, so then I'll need new tires, and then a new torque converter.....and a shift kit.....and since I'm gonna do all that, I might as well spend just a few hundred more and get better heads......and it starts all over again. The vortec option is great if you can keep it mild. Remember, Vortecs are great for the money, but there ARE better options, once you open up your wallet. You HAVE to stay in budget for it to be a good option.

 

This information is extremely helpfull and i have been doing some homework of my own on the topic as well.

Not sure how this may impact the thoughts above but may give some light to my reasoning.

the car at question is an 87 GTA with a T56 Swap on the L98 already. My intial goal with this car is to first, really recondition and upgrade all the way around. I am not in the same baot as i was a couple years back with the 89GTA I had, so yes this build is more on a budget at the moment then my daydreams would like, but it needs a bit of everything. So Exterior and Interior are my first targets, this makes the 4th gen buy a tempting one and have thought the same, but not as cost effective verse opertunity as i would like....Meaning finding one that you can get a good price to make the investment (in my neck of the woods, Mustang n 240sx land). This also kinda pushes me away from the LS1 swap...sure, better motor ( should be) but the LS is not a GOD motor compared to the LT1/4's (ex. i have seen 305's beat 350's in my time), so the advantage here is the cost of a 4th gen with an LT1 being cheaper ( and considering its only to please me) maybe a more desirable route (then again, finding one)
Also, the LT1 will bolt to the T56, verse the LS were i would need the bell housing.
Either way, a swap may be still considerable, but maybe more of an upgrade later on once the car (overall) is at that point. In the mean time, 1000- to 1500 investment into the L98 is (still LT1 - rest of car, rang) but maybe more realistic with the L98....

I am sure, if in time i got car to par, got 4th gen, swapped and sold off... a nicely mod L98 would be worth something to counter the investment as well.

this is why, i have been doing circles on this topic and am trying to really get a good contrast of the vortex option ( which you guys are amazingly helping to do )

If i wanted to focus on the car as a hole and get it up to a solid stage ( prior to any really upgrades) the TPI options seem little open ended....

My last GTA, was a TPIS System that I loved and thought was great (good power, response and looks) but also cost me about 2300 (everything) new when i bought it a couple years back.... way too pricey for me to do today, expecially on just motor and with the LS swap not far from that as well ( give or take what and were you buy)

so....sigh...this is why i look for another option...dont mind the time or effort, just trying to be smart with the money and get more life in the motor...
Vortex and the LT1 Top (Intake Swap) options just appealed to me more then some of the "over the counter" routes (sorta speak and with no offence ment) like the stealth rams and so on.

besides...i like different...would love to see an L98 with custom intake set up and coil packs...something like NSE's 3G camaro

thanks again guys