Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

OP, I would just go with the sound advice received here. Full exhaust and a holesaw from your local Lowes should get you into the low 13's.

If you want to really put an exclamation point on it, go with a chip and remove the screen from the MAF. That should get you well into the 10's (dont forget the cage and helmet). Finally, a set of drag radials, and an Edelbrock underhood sticker should put you neck and neck with John Force.

Its as easy as 1-2-3.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You forgot "build a 383" and "jack it up like a mother". Few mothballs in the tank oughta do the trick when you need to knock off a few more tenths.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I will add it is well proven and documented that a stock LT4 C4 is faster than a LS1 C5.

That Titan pickup was a monster for what it was. 5.6 DOHC V8, 5spd auto (3.89 1st gear and a factory converter that stalled 2,800 rpm), and 3.36 rear gear. On a Mustang dyno it put down 330 RWHP @ 4,900 rpm and 400 RWTQ @ 2900 rpm on E85.

KyleF

As I said... 30 years later and still with this crap.

The difference between an LB9 G92 Car with a 5-speed in a 1/4 and an L98 G92 car is going to be .1 or .2 seconds. Better gearing/Weight... but depends on shifting.

To the original point. No L98/LB9 car with cut open air filter housing and headers is out running an LS1 F-Body setting next to it on the same day, in the same operating condition.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You have a problem with the #1 point of the thread, but then you repeat 305 apologist propaganda like this? Dear Pot, Sincerely The Kettle.

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

I am aware of the LT4 vettes, and SS's, and what they do.

I would add that its a well documented fact that TPI F-bodies don't run 13s, G92 L98s don't run with LS1s with exhaust and a homemade intake cutout, and the easter bunny is not real.......but who's counting?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

None? Ever? Never?

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

Ok, you guys win lol. G92 T5 cars are absolute street stompers, and G92 L98s are the be-all, end all of drag strip performance. Both cars have been proven to be 13 second cars, time and time again by enthusiasts coast to coast.

Meanwhile, GM actually started going BACKWARDS from 1993 on with their engine performance, and realized "tackling" the L98 with a new, redesigned engine was absolutely impossible (may be why they axed the f-bodies in 02).

I am going to buy some advertising time on TV, as this issue needs to be addressed IMMEDIATELY. Someone needs to let all these guys doing LS1/2/3, etc, swaps to CEASE immediately and go with an L98 or LB9!

I mean....why swap if LS1 territory is just a holesaw and exhaust system away?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

No reason to get testy. Just asking you about your assertion.

BTW, I drive an LS3/TR6060 as my daily so you're not telling me anything new. But I've also seen plenty of mid 14 second LS1 runs.

Of course, the LS1 is generally faster than a TPI. But I can also see the right L98 getting the jump on the right LS1. Stuff happens, my man.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Now you're getting it.

Oh HELLNAWW! Don't go doing that, you'll foul up the ratio.

Because all the cool kids said so.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Wow how did we get to Nissan Titans and LT1 vs LS1? I recognize maybe a few Lb9s and occasionally an L98 bumped high 13 sec timeslips stock. Fast for its day. I did with my own eyes see my friends Ram- Air Ls1 car trip 12.90s bone stock. No stock L98 or Nissan pickup gets even remotely close to that except maybe the first 60ft of a race. And honestly I don't care. Apples and oranges..

Drew

iTrader: (58)

If you only knew the power of the speed density L98.

Can we get a lock on this here bench racing session? This clearly isn't going to end well. <<<L98 burnout #LB9sCanSukIt #LS1sRGhey

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

Not zesty at all, just like to clear up some BS is all from time to time.

Stuff does happen. Stating exhaust and a cutout will make your L98 "run with LS1s" is pretty misleading however. Thats my only point.

KyleF

It's published as so. I don't know why you have an issue with a car with less gear spread, a lighter transmission, less drive line loss, and a lower gear in the rear end making up for a for a few less horses.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

But now if you have a $19.99 Ebay electric supercharger (leaf blower, pc cooling fan, or Chevy starter motor bolted to a turbine housing) them LS Juans will be gazing at Iroc tail pipes.

1LE BABY!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Because 45 cubic inches, 45ft lb of torque, and 15hp is completely negligible?

Since the difference between a 92 Z28 L98/G92 and a 98 Z28 is only +60hp, and -10ft lbs, how can you argue one, while completely discounting the other?

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

Pshhhh, those mods are to put away new Z06s, not lowly Ellis Juans. I'd hate to see some young kid get killed in his ebay blown Iroc with 700+ to the tires.

You ever heard of the throttle body coolant bypass mod??!?!???! Not for the timid, guaranteed to cause violent, uncontrollable feces deposits in shorts upon 1/2 throttle

Drew

iTrader: (58)

My cousin's sister's uncle's brother told me Jeff Gordon ran an Igloo cooler full of dry ice and triple reverse osmosis filtered Colorado Rocky Mountain spring water, and pumped it through the TB Bypass passage with a Koi pond pump in his NHRA Nascar. I bet if you pumped the ice cold liquid gold through an air to water heat exchanger, with a C02 or N20 spray bar for auxillary cooling, it'd be like pumping pure liquid nitrogen oxide right into the combustion chambers.

red rock

iTrader: (2)

I think everyone need's to revisit post #12. We are on 2 pages already, and haven't accomplished anything.

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

And that is why these mods need to be kept SUPER secret. Can you imagine of that kind of information got out in public???

"1/3 of all of the 3rd gen f-bodies in existence were totalled today. Apparently the long kept secret "John Denver" TB bypass mod became public knowledge, resulting in 2.5M 9000RWHP cars over night"

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The guy that started the thread calls himself Deez Nutz. I'm pretty sure this thread was destined to go this way from the start. Besides we're accomplishing much mirth in those that can pick up on the humor.

As sad as it is, TPI is a piece of living nostalgia ripped out of the dark ages of EFI performance. Sure it's head and shoulders over CFI, and TBI, but it's never really been understood by a lot of people. Evidenced by countless magazine and tv show builds that never lived up to expectations, or by 20 years of posts on the forum. In the early days it was witchcraft, so we had **** like the TPIS Insider Hints book, and signature blocks bragging about cat deletes, underdrive pulleys, thermomaster chips, SLP runners, and so on and so forth. During the late 90's up until the past few years, these forums were packed full of "Free Mods" and clear tail lights, lambo doors, and Rustoleum paint jobs... A topic like this is DOOMED TO FAIL because the sewage lagoon is far too polluted with decades of bad info. The knowledgeable people KNOW this, and thus don't bother to post their experience, because those who have been there, and done that, are always going to be out-shouted by the mob of people suggesting foolish modifications. It's a waste of time to try to answer a thread like this with sincerity, because some damn ignoramus will always contradict anything of value. /rant

KyleF

Depends on the car in question.

The LS1 to L98: LS1 is equipped with a 3.23 gear, 3 pulling gears (if Auto), and similar drive line loss. Power is the only difference. 6 speed is faster if you can shift it and has a lower gear.

LB9 to L98: drive line loss through the T-5 is less and the rear gear is lower, plus the overall car is lighter. This makes up the gap in power. This is kind of elementary. What is not to understand?

The 305 is still a tick slower. Then when you start talking about modding, the 350 will respond better.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I think it's fair to say that for every L98/LB9 14.00 second run, there is an LS1 13.00 second run. Same could be said about for every 14.5 second LS1 run there is a 15.5 second L98/LB9 run.

What gets interesting though, and what I think got this whole thread off track is, when an L98/LB9 in the first group meets an LS1 in the second group.

red rock

iTrader: (2)

I agree whole heartedly. I tried every so called "mod" that there was to try years ago. Had a lot of money tied up in nothing but maybe a 20hp gain at best. Then i started preparing for an engine build, so when that day came, most of the important things were done, such as suspension, rearend, transmission. There are some "mods that i do think help the engine, but will not gain much in hp, such as a good tune up, oil changes, and what i like, is a cooler running engine. The basics are always good for an engines like free flowing exhaust and intake, but will not make it preform like a rocket. I just get a kick out of these threads as to how bent out of shape they get. I just had to get in on the action a little. just to let you guy's know, we are watching.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You don't seem to understand that the rear gear ratio on T5 cars is lower because the gearing in the transmission is higher. It's a wash at the end of the day. Weight? Sure, the T5 is lighter than a 700R4, but how much weight does the heavy flywheel, clutch disc, pressure plate, extra pedal, hydraulics, etc add? The difference isn't nearly as significant as you seem to think. It's close enough that quantity of fuel, a Big Mac addiction, or a couple subs and an amp can more than make up the difference.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Heres some notes for you guys. Take it for what it is

My 89 L98 full optioned car was 3450 with me in it. Only mods i had at the time of my first track run on factory size 245/50/16 street tires were hooker header shorties 2055’s, y pipe, flowmaster 80 series 3” catback, and 2800 stall. K&n filters with bottom cut out and homemade ram air ducting. Eibach springs and tokico shocks. Timing set to 8 or 10 deg base, i cant remember exactly. 2.77 gears
Went 13.89 at 97. 1.89 60 foot

Throw slicks on it and i believe i had 3.42 gears at this point, , 13.63 at 97 mph. High 1.7x 60 ft



My 99 ls1 trans am. Bone stock except for a lid and it had a glasspack muffler original owner had put in like an slp loudmouth but it was 2” id... 2.73 gears stock converter
Went 2.0 60 ft and ran 13.4’s at 104 mph.
3680 lbs with me in it

Converter, headers, mild street tune and drag radials and weight reduction went 12.11 at 112 lol. 1.66 60 ft


Tpi cars best mods imo are first exhaust, then torque converter 2600-2800. This makes car feel better, sound better and make abit more power. Then you have to go big tube runners and base, do some fine tuning and you’ll see good gains. .2-.4 et easily. Better yet, do a stealth ram miniram or single plane efi. Huge gains.

My L98 from previous discussion 13.63 on stock tpi. Holley stealth ram swap it was in the 13.3’s in similar air conditions.
Drag wheels, pullies and 1.6 rockers later, it went 12.93 at 103.x
Full bolt on short runner intake swapped L98’s can hang with stock auto ls1 cars. Well driven manual, maybe not

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Anyhoo.....

Considering this thread was started over 2 years ago, I'm sure the OP has already done his "go fast tricks".

KyleF

Manuals are lighter.... Imagine this conversation with the 5.0 Fox guys. Everyone knows the T5 cars were faster than the AOD's.

T5 89-on: 1st: 3.35, 2nd: 1.99, 3rd: 1.33, 4th: 1.0, 5th: .68
700R4: 1st: 3.06, 2nd: 1.62, 3rd: 1.0, 4th: .70

That gearing doesn't look higher to me

Then put that to a 3.42 instead of a 3.23

T5 First with an LB9 is a 11.457:1
700R4 First with an L98 is 9.8838

So, 305 at 300ft-lb is putting in ideal conditions 3,437 ft-lbs of the twisty stuff to the wheel and the 350 is putting 3410 ft-lbs of torque when multiplied through the gears. Being that a clutch loses less than a torque converter the 305 wins the low end grunt battle.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I agree with your sentiment, but FYI, the GM T5 had a 2.95 1st gear. 2.95 x 3.45 =10.18.

KyleF

I looked it up on HR Network, but yes... upon a deeper dig, correct. Still a deeper ratio and 2.95 to a 3.06 isn't huge, but I had the 1-2 fall on the face of the 700R4. Even with a 2.73 first gear is great, but then... 2nd to 80mph sucks!

A torque converter still has more parasitic loss than a clutch. So, there is that to. Which equates to a car with 45lbs less torque and 15 less hp only being a .1sec slower.

Point still being, the LB9/L98 cars equal out pretty close. When comparing to an LS1, keep in mind the G92 cars both produced similar times. Would be be talking about how an LB9 keeps up with an LS1?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Jesus Christ. I just blew purple drank out of my ears. This statement is so idiotic, I think you just won a humorous quote in my signature block.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

~Testing~

Black00SS

iTrader: (5)

Take a stroll with me gentlemen.....imagine this.

G92
5 speed
WITH the full exhaust, and the hacksaw trick.

I believe we have a 2018 North American car of the year, introducing....the 1992 Z28.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Problem is the stupid little mods do make a difference.. I think people exaggerate about it and I even forgot about some of the stuff I did to my 87 G92 5-speed.. probably had $5000-$6000 into it to get it running with stock SS Camaros from the 90s, so yeah, TPI isn’t the best bang for the buck at the track and if you want to run with the tweaked Grand Nationals and new Camaro SS you have to ditch the TPI..

You can probably get a 305 TPI running neck and neck with an L98 by getting the air in quicker and exhaust out quicker, but you’d have to do a lot more to catch an LS1..

LS1 is a way better platform to build on with less restrictions but I like looking at a TPI.. and there’s cops everywhere anyways.. I wouldn’t even want a Hellcat or a Z06 because of all the damn cops cracking down on everything.. Can only enjoy all that power you’re paying for at the track and I don’t go to the track anymore..

Even if you shell out a ton of money to be fast, some dude with a modded Hellcat with 1100hp will pull up to you..

There’s no end to the horsepower wars.. I’ll enjoy my stock TPI thanks

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Same here.

KyleF

That's fine, take it out of context without the math. The math shows more torque to the real wheels in 1st. End of story.

I find it entertaining how people react when proven wrong.
Especially when proven wrong by math.

You even Algebra Bro?

punzak9

What I took away from this thread, is the following:

-A nicely modified L98 having a good day can compete with a stock LS1 having a bad day.
-1 person thinks that by doing an exhaust on an L98 it can compete with a stock LS1.
-People tried using math to justify stuff.
-Math doesnt always translate well to the real world.
-Some people with 350’s have beaten Stock Ls1’s.
-Nobody really compared perfect scenarios for both cars going against each other.
-People use vauge scenarios to make their argument right.
-Nobody can really agree on stuff.
-This thread is really funny to read even if you dont know the inner aspects of engines and gears very well.
-I hope it continues.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Not especially.

I'm certainly not going to take the time to apply math to an issue that frankly I don't really care about, and honestly I'm not going to change your opinion even if I were to prove you wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's much more rewarding to just mock your ridiculous statement for the lulz.

I'm hoping other people find it funny, because I find it funny. I find it so funny in fact I forwarded the link to Facebook friends so they could laugh too. Why I might even have to take a screen shot and post it to my feed for the amusement of my entire friends list.

I really don't mean any offense to anyone when I say it, but I've owned a half dozen or more 305s. 305s are one step above pure garbage for performance. It's probably not the least desirable SBC, but that's only because the 267 V8 is a real thing. Meanwhile the 350 Chevy is the bread and butter of, dare I say, the entirety of hotrodding since the Flat Head Ford went out of style and until the LS1 came on the scene?

So yeah, you go ahead and keep preaching the mathematical superiority of the 305 with a 5spd fit for a 4cyl, I'll be over here laughing my butt off.

punzak9

But for real. As someone who isnt very technically knowledgable. Just going by “common sense” / opinion / what I’ve researched over the years and driven both. I cant see a L98 with an exhaust being compared to a stock LS1. If both drivers hit the shifts perfectly in the best racing conditions at the exact same time, how would you think L98 would compete with a stock LS1. I was really trying to see both sides but I just dont. Yes, a golf cart could beat an LS1 given the right scenario...but if you’re going to compare the two it has to be perfect scenarios for each.

...just my mostly unknowlegable opinion...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Reread my post lol i had both an ls1 and an L98 car with similar mods over time and did similar comparisons

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I think this is very funny and I did laugh out loud at the sig when I saw it..

I don’t know if I’d say a 305 is “pure garbage”. I mean a stock LB9 and L98 weren’t that far apart.. at the same time I get it, if you have a really nice 305 car and your engine goes, you’re probably not rushing out to get a shiny new 305.. probably a 5.7, 5.3 or 6.2..

How many of you guys have lined up against a car and had your doors blown off like you’re standing still..? That’s quite a feeling..

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The thing is, there is always someone faster. And if you're the fastest, you probably won't be for long. That's why, as you mentioned earlier, I appreciate them for what they are. I've had half a dozen 305 3rd gens, all different versions, some are faster than others, but I enjoyed all of them.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Well like I said before the 90-92 L98 G92 N10 cars were the fastest TPI’s. They responded to mod better than the 87-89 TPI’s. I’ve seen an 88 IROC L98 with 3.45 gears and SLP full exhaust run 13.60@102 back in 92. I’ve seen an 89 IROC LB9 T5 with Edelbrock full exhaust run 13.9@101 in 94. These were at sea level tracks in California at Terminal Island. Another friend with a 92 Z28 L98 Jerrywho went 13.5@103 with SLP 1 3/4in Headers and dual catback exhaust and SLP dual air intake on a 98* day in 2007.
Now we all know that the LS1 is superior to the TPI. But it will take a full bolt on TPI to get somewhat close to a stock LS1 305hp with 2.73’s in the quarter. The LB9 should not be mentioned in these arguments. I’ve been driving these cars since 1987. We even had a club from 88-94 when these cars were new and we race then against each other and against mustangs. At that time we were all stock for the most part. Some of us had full exhaust and we saw the difference in how they ran. But like I said. My 90 IROC L98 G92 N10 with SLP 1 3/4in Headers dual 3in cats 3in cat-back with Hooker Maxiflow 3in in&out muffler and gutted airbox went 13.4@104 with 3.23 gears on a 75* day 1200ft above sea level. The engine had 189.000mi.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I want to say some 90 and all 91-92 L98’s got flat top pistons with valve reliefs. My 89 and a 87 i worked on had slight dish and valve reliefs. 90-92 would make bit more power from compression with flat top despite having a slightly milder cam

punzak9

@Orr89RocZ
Im sorry, you did make that statement about the same scenarios earlier. I crept in my mind after I posted that I might have read that but wasnt going back to look lol

This was a good thread from a reading standpoint.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Why's that?

Well, in a naturally aspirated SBC situation, more cubic inches will always have the potential to make more power. So it's pointless to compare them. Mod for mod the L98 will win over the LB9, and I don't want to hear about factory freaks lol. The only way a smaller engine will have a chance, mod for mod, is if it happens to RPM higher.

- Rob

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I’ve never seen an 11 second TPI car but I think it’s great if there is one.. I was always told to ditch TPI if you want to go faster.. I have a friend with an 11 second Grand National and another guy with a tuned 2017 Camaro SS doin 10s.. I wouldn’t think you could get those times with an L98 TPI..
I agree, mod for mod the L98 will have a slight advantage. My old LB9 with a lot of money into it was running with stock 4th gen Camaro SS which was fine for me. I beat a lot of L98s with exhaust, pulleys, chips and hacksaw airbox. (I had a mod advantage even though you couldn’t tell under the hood). My argument was that a 305 can be fast and fun. Was never saying that a 305 is better than a 350 or that I beat any 350s that were identically modded to my 305.. The G92 5 speed was quick..

Didn’t Motorweek or Car and driver actually run a faster 1/4 mile with a G92 5-speed LB9 vs. stock L98 700 R4?

I’m too lazy to look this stuff up..

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

In stock form the LC2 really is a crappy design, I think any Grand National enthusiast would agree. The heads are worse than the LB9 heads, the intake valves are 1.77". The stock throttle body has a whopping 10mm advantage over the L98's, but the ports in the manifold and cylinder heads on the little 231 engine are just as restrictive as the L98 runners, so there are pluses and minuses for both. Untouched, with proper boost of course, a stock GN w/stock turbo has seen low 11's, and some even claim 10's. A boosted L98, with adequately sized turbo and stall, should easily top that. Easily. That's not to say that a TPI is the preferred choice, it's not. It's just that nobody even bothered to push it, because an intake swap is usually one of the first things that happens with these cars. Without boost, TPI has no chance against what is out there today, and will remain stuck in yesteryear...

- Rob

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I always forget about people that have put turbos on IROCs and TPI Vettes.. I don’t know much about Grand Nationals but know some guys obsessed with them.. I’ve never messed with one.. always an F-Body guy.. I’d get into Grand Nationals if they weren’t so overpriced..