IROC57TPI

If the T-Ram is so good then why isn't anyone copying it or why isn't SLP making it available for aftermarket installs?

I know that everyone running a TPI setup is looking for an alternative to make high RPM power, so why not make the T-Ram available? Is it so that the people owning the current ones can say that they have a collectible piece on their car and keep the value of them up?

85transamtpi

I guess the molds for the castings were burned in a warehouse fire a few years ago. That would explain why there are no new parts being made, and SLP is probably not going to spend money making an intake for out of date cars when they are probably making the most money on 4th gen parts now.

-peace

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

yeah the castings were destroyed. Plus i doubt there is enough solid interest from thirdgenners for SLP to take the time and $ to re-produce it..

CarnageGTA

Ah man that just sucks

I was getting realliy interested in this setup, but what exactly are the differences between a TPI setup and T_RAM? Besides the good looks, is there even runner at all under that Plemium?

A good machiniste could measure it and replicate the piece. Too bad my buddy does'nt have one to measure...

Ed Maher

Yup, the molds got destroyed in a warehouse fire a few years back. There was talk of SLP remaking them, but they (wisely) decided not to even bother. I threw the (wisely) in there b/c face facts. Thirdgenners are the cheapest group of people in the world. Sure some of you talk smack about building his or that combo, or wouldn't it be nice. But face it. As a group, yall whine about the cost of anything.
One small example to illustrate this. For years people complained about no whit face guage overlays for our cars. Macewen finally stepped up and made 'em. Even though they are under $100 (less than half what most white face guage kits run) there are still masses of folks that complained they were overpriced and took to copying them, or making their own w/ construction paper and crayons.

If SLP remade 'em, you know damn well it'd be at least as much as a MR or SR would be, if not more due to it being a complex casting. 6 people would buy it. Everybody else would talk about how cool it must be, but say it was overpriced. C'est la vie. I don't miss it, it's honestly not that impressive anyway.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Ed's right on the money here... You guys suck... J/K I'm just as bad... If thirdgen owners had the money they could drag SLP into it, but how much business do you think SLP would really get out of selling Trams? When they made them originally they were all supposed to go on Firehawks... See how well the Firehawks sold? The rumor I've heard is that the rest were sold thru Summit and that they even had trouble moving them. Doesn't say a lot for us does it?

I'm rather shocked that Ronal is repressing the Firehawk wheels just because a couple people here wanted them. Hopefully its successfull enough that they make their profit. Maybe if people here did somethign similar with SLP a deal could be struck. Although there would be a lot of R&D for SLP since they'd have to redo the Tram from the ground up.

CarnageGTA

ALll very good points

Unfortunately, 2 bad the option isnt available thought. Oh well doesnt matter that much, I love the looks and power of my polished TPI. and secondely Im way 2 cheap to even think of buying such a peice if it were available

IROC57TPI

OK, so screw SLP. Let's get another aftermarket supplier to re-design it similarly to the t ram and put their own name on it.

There has to be some alternative when it comes to intake manifolds and TPI. You guys hit the nail on the head when you said 3rd genner s are cheap @sses. You are right. If we all had $$ we'd be driving 4th gens or swapping in 4th gen power plants in our cars.

Why is it a carbed intake manifold sells for less than $200 when a EFI setup is normally double or more? In marketing its called supply and demand. If we demand it they will supply it- for a price. Of course that price will be much more than the average 3rd gen owner can afford.

Someone needs to help us out and develop an affordable alternative. Don't you guys think TPIS has sold thousands of mini-rams and made big $$ ? Why then isn't the price going down now that they've recovered some R&D money?

\ rant mode off

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

EFI stuff isn't exactly cheap to engineer and develope. I agree with what Ed and Drew said, thirdgenners bitch about lack of an aftermarket, then when something comes out they bitch about the price, or want to do a group purchase that would kill the vendor. MacEwens gauge overlay's are a PERFECT example!

Acceld Z

Ryan Falconer designed and cast the T-Rams for SLP. If you want one, harass him, not SLP.

I think one of the other reason TPI parts are more expensive is that you will also find TPI engines in Corvettes. Corvette owners are probably (by the numbers) more affluent than thirdgen owners so aftermarket companies can justify the extra cost. See any MAD 'Vette or Eckler's catalogue for proof. The prices are insane. I'm not trying to stereotype here but it's probably true. Another reason may be volume. How many cars are running around with SuperRams or MiniRams? Now, How many cars are running around with an Edelbrock RPM intake? See my point?

cort351w

Ed is so right.

WS6Formula350

The costumer ultimately says what is going to be produced. And why produce something for a bunch of cheap people that aren't going to buy the product. The purpose of business is to make money not lose it.

a383z

iTrader: (2)

You guys made some good points, I dont normally chime in but I will. IROC57 you are wrong about one thing, Some ie( I ) can afford 4th gens and still drive 3rd gens I wanted mine since I was 12 and now own it and will forever. If I remember correctly the T-Ram was not all that better than the Super Ram and actually I dont think the SR was available or atleast not popular back then. I think the T-Ram had really long runners. And after some research it only made 6 more HP than a SR and would be a good bit more expensive based on the way its built. I would not call 3rd geners chea though more like frugal why spend a ton of money on one part when you can possibley make your own and get something else also. And given time we can have a budget built ***** to the walls camaro. I have been playin with mine for 6 years and the only thing I have left is my torque arm and bigger front brakes. 3rd gen camaros are great its just most update to something else later in life. Oh and by the way the T-ram is only good till 6500 rpms just like the SR

Ed Maher

See, you're already doing it.

What do you mean we need a 'cheap' performance manifold. The stock intake can be made to work well into the 13s and into the low hundreds. And an aftermarket base w/ some nice runners can get you 11s. And of course there's the SR and MR. Or the LT1 intake, which is the answer to all you budget guys dreams if you'd stop being so gay about torque.

Sure those parts are a little spendy. But so is everything else you need to run 12s / 11s / etc. If you can afford suspension, nice heads, the whole 9, dropping another 1k seems much more in proportion.

If your goal is all out speed, no doubt, run a carb and be done with it. If you want to run EFI, it's always gonna cost more.

As for not being able to afford a 4th gen, thats not a correct statement. I'm a computer engineer, i could be driving whatever i want, but i LIKE my thirdgens. Maybe it's a sickness, oh well. Point is, all thirdgenners aren't just people looking to move on. You aren't gonna build a 12 second thirdgen while you save up for an LS1 car.

And lay off the vette guys. Wake up. They don't drive our prices up. If it weren't for vettes, there'd be no aftermarket whatsoever for TPI. If you don't think the aftermarket only cares about vettes, why do you think the SR has interference problems w/ the windsheild wiper motor in f-bodies. I guess we didn't cross ligenfelter's mind once in all the time he spent R & D'ing it, eh?

89Raptor

What about the Vortec TPI intake? Everyone whined they wanted one (me included) and then SDPC made one. Are they selling? I know when I ordered mine through Jim Pace it was their last one. So, don't believe we won't pay for what we want. We all want a good deal, doesn't everyone, but we are willing to pay for what we want ask Steve Spohn.

Ed Maher

Well, the vortec intake is selling, but i'm sure they're not producing large numbers of them either. And think of how easy it was to make that base vs. a completely new design. Good profit in it. Plus it's trendy. It fills a niche for people that want to run the latest fad vortec heads. It's not like the other 'overpriced' stuff doesn't sell either, i mean, they keep making it. Doesn't change the fact that on the whole we're very much a small market and not very worthwhile to try to reinvent the wheel. Easy way to tie up capital and risk loss for very little potential return.

IROC57TPI

The SD Vortec TPI intake is way overpriced too, IMO.

The idea here is cheap performance with Vortec heads. Well the whole idea gets shot down by a manifold that costs as much as a set of heads!

u r sofa king we tah did

cheap bastards break out your wallets and credit cards. seriously though its getting to a yelling match with no point. if you look at it realisticly, ed's point is pretty crude. i bet if you took around 80 percent of the people on this board, they are gonna be a school kid with a handed down camaro or bird, and of course they are gonna be cheap, cause they aint got no money to spend in the first place. hell it aint their fault they arent in the position you are to spend money on mods. it doesnt take long to realize who the dreamers with their "im gonna build this eventually and put it in my car", but then again at least its not distructive. everyone wants wants wants, but when it comes down to it, about 20% of them are actually in a situation to do anything.

Acceld Z

Are you serious? How many '85-91 'Vettes where built? Now compare that number to the number of TPI F-cars made between '85-92. Don't tell me that the F-cars where not considered when these parts where engineered.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Someone already made an alternative to TPI. Its Holley's new Stealth Ram intake. http://www.holley.com/ and go to What's New and scroll down a bit. But its too bad they didnt made it with EGR so it can be smog legal...

Skweezn87

Well going Fast isnt CHEAP.... Plain and Simple!!!

If you wanna run and RUN WELL... its gonna cost...

Quit being cheap......

Rick

Ed Maher

Yeah, but kev, it's sooooo overpriced

Brad

Ed is exactly right, because 5 years ago I was in the same situation. I was just out of high school, I owned a 1989 RS, and I was broke. I dreamed and what-if’d so often my Summit catalog was coming apart at the spine.

Thirdgenners ARE the cheapest bunch of enthusiasts out there. If you compare the cost of parts for our cars, they are cheap. The Corvette, fourth gens (both LT1 and LS1), imports, etc... they all have parts which cost much more than parts for our cars. The only vehicles out there with a cheaper aftermarket are old school carbed GM muscle, and 5.0 Mustangs. Yet with our aftermarket being so relatively cheap in comparison, the average third genner will bitch and moan about the price of anything for their car.

So many of you need to realize that speed costs money no matter what you drive, so if you don't have that money then you might as well be content to dream until such time that you can afford to make your dreams a reality. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Aftermarket companies are in the business to make money, and if they don't see a market for what you guys want, then it's not going to happen. Performance automotive parts is not a charity business, you're not owed anything. I know that if I was in business making parts I would want the highest profit margin I could feasibly get away with.

Market drives price and if the price is too high, no one buys. But guess who is buying? Fourth genners, Vette owners, import enthusiasts, Mustang owners. Guess who isn't buying? Third genners. So as a group we are now left with options that are only brought about due to a small group of hardcore thirdgen enthusiasts (Spohn), or hand-me-down parts engineering (like the Superram).

Take my advice: If you don't make enough money to buy what you need to build a car right at this point in your life, just sit tight and try to improve things. Don't whine and moan about the price of parts, and don't try to half-*** things.

Here it is, five years later for me. I'm no longer broke, I've since gotten rid of the RS in favor of my Iroc, and I'm having a 396 stroker built with 4340 forged crank and rods, forged SRP pistons, Callies splayed billet steel caps, topped off with AFR 190 heads, a Superram, and a Nitrous Express system. No whining about the price, and no half-assing it from me.

Skweezn87

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said...........

Rick

MikeS

Even though the tooling was destroyed, I would expect that that tooling was produced from drawings or computer files. It seems entirely possible that these materials still exist. But, the argument still remains...Is there enough demand to justify production?

u r sofa king we tah did

it may be true, but personally i dont buy the "garbage" that the mold was destroyed in a fire. they produced to many of em, noticed they werent selling, so they jumped ship. a fire isnt going to stop a product from being produced ever again. besides, its not that amazing of a piece. does nothing extra ordinary over the super ram or mini ram.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Wow this thread has gone places since yesterday... too bad its all just been in a big circle.

I will say this though, I've spent about $25,000 on thirdgens, just in the initial buy in cost. That doesn't include tires, tune ups, interior swaps, body work, hipo parts, etc. If I wanted a 4th gen Z28 that sells for about $4000, don't you think I'd have one? Seriously. 93-96 LT1 4th gens are typically priced between $4000 and $8000 for a run of the mill 100,000 mile car. But honestly, I'd rather spend $5000 and get a nice run down thirdgen because in my opinion they're better cars. When I was working and making money I was buying NEW parts from the dealership to put my formula back to how it was new, I couldn't tell you how much I've spent, and I couldn't tell you how many parts I bought that most people here wouldn't pay half as much for, because 'its too expensive'. Horse****, its not too expensive, y'all are too cheap. There aren't enough people interested in thirdgens with a common need to make any part really sell well. If you want to have a company make a part then show them there's a demand for the part and show them the friggin' money.

So in this case, do people really want a T ram? Find 100 people that want one, and find out what price they'll pay, and contact someone who can make them and see what they say. With 10000+ members on this site, I'll go out on a limb and say that we'd be lucky to find 10 members that would pay $500 each for T rams.

People here bitch about EVERYTHING... Every parts supplier is screwing someone over, and everytime its the suppliers fault, not the fault of the idiot ordering, and everytime its completely unacceptable and the supplier should pay all the shipping and give a discount.... All someone needs to do to see how people on this site DON'T APPRECIATE SUPPLIERS is to look on the aftermarket vendor and aftermarket parts boards. Hell even look at the classifieds board sometime... You'll see the same parts over and over and over, the only time something sells is if someone sells it at a loss.

u r sofa king we tah did

moderators are included in this too

Acceld Z

Speed costs money, regardless of what you drive. If I where to add up the receipts for my GTA I'd probably puke. But then i've bought parts that have demonstrated they work. These are the parts that generally carry the big price tag.


Mods, I have a request..............Please stop trying to stir **** and act like you are above the rest of us. You are not the only ones who have "been there and done that".

Guest

I have to disagree with the whole theory about the TPI intakes not being expensive, they are very expensive. Mustang 5.0 intakes, complete, I have seen sell for as little as $350. The most expensive ones barely hit $1000. The cheapest TPI stuff is $400 just for the base alone. The miniram by the time you get everything is $1300. I dunno, you tell me whats wrong with this picture. And they wonder why they dont sell many of them? I'm sorry but they drove the demand curve to where it is all by themselves. I dont know the price on the Holley setup, but I am willing to bet they join the club and charge $1200 for it. IMO thats rediculous. I'd go carb first. And sure you can get the stock intake to perform, but its a hindrance in the setup that you are stuck with working with unless you want to spend a whole bunch of money.

Personally, I'd still stick to converting a carb base for TPI, even with a bunch of work to make it functional is cheaper than any of the aftermarket stuff out there. Thats a pretty sad state of affairs if you can make a one-off working intake manifold for less than the aftermarket replacement parts.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The trick to bitching is bitching to someone who can do something about it. I've seen this discussion at least 10 times since I've been frequenting the site, and only once or twice have I seen someone put together the information that there is a demand and people have money in hand, and then present that information to a supplier.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Well, I have disagreed with madmax before on certain things, but I don't think I can say how much I agree with some of the stuff just mentioned in his previous post. If they lowered the price they would actually make more money from the increase in order numbers. Same with SLP and their overpriced headers, lower the price reasonably and you'll make a bigger profit when u add it all up from much higher sales.

u r sofa king we tah did

best request ive seen yet on this board.

IROC57TPI

You took the words right outta my mouth...... :hail: :lala:

Matt_91RSTPI

The T-Ram really isn't that great, that's why. There are plenty of options available (Super Ram, Mini Ram, Holley Stealth Ram, Accell Pro Ram, High Flow Base and Runners). It doesn't do anything better than the available options and personally I think the install is a hack job anyway. Have you seen the cable and fuel hook-ups for that thing? If you want high RPM power pick an Accell Pro Ram or a converted Victor Jr. If that's too expensive, save your money or switch to a carb or buy a freakin' Mustang.

-Matt

Ed Maher

Mustangs are a huge market.

Carb cars are a huge market.

Chevy EFI traditionally hasn't been a large market.

Hence the pricing differences.

FlashGTA

You have to pay to play, live it, learn it, love it! So either Play Hard or go home.

Guest

Mustangs a huge market and F-bodies arent? Just as many F-bodies sold in the thirdgen range... Part of the reason Chevy EFI hasnt been a big market is the prices. I really think companies like AS&M, Street&Performance, Lingenfelter and most importantly TPIS had alot to do with the initial pricing, and everyone else just followed suit. Maybe if our intake wasnt used on the $$$$$Corvette$$$$ we wouldnt be getting hosed down so badly. Like I said before, they drove the demand curve to where it is all by themselves. You charge enough, very few people are going to cough up the cash. And also like I said before, if you can make a one off custom manifold for less than mass produced items, thats a pretty sad state of affairs.

I guess you guys just arent seeing that the R+D costs and production costs for TPI stuff is being more than just passed down to us, they are padding it bigtime.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Now you took the words outa my mouth!

Now, Im not sure about any of you other 3rd genners out there, but I really dont appreciate being called "cheap". Its not fair to say that. Granted Im only 20, but I have paid for every car I have owned so far (88 Cavalier, 84 ta, 2 88 GTA's, and my 92 Vert) and I pay my own insurance on my own policy, which is roughly 5k a year, and I have no points. Its funny how i pay $300 for my vert a month, but $400 to insure it. So dont assume everyone here is cheap. If I were cheap, I wouldnt be into third gens... Id just get some energy effecient pos.

Our parts are among the MOST EXPENSIVE in the market. Why? Who knows. To say theres no demand for our parts? Thats The reason theres no demand is because once people see that they have to pay over $400 for a pair of friggin runners, which MIGHT yield 10 hp, they say "screw this, im goin to carb" or "im buyin a mustang". Its true.

Now, say I want a new BBK throttle body, SLP runners, and an Edelbrock base. These are basically the cheapest TPI parts avail. Total cost would be about $950-$1000 depending on where ya get it.
Now, say I want just about THE BEST intake for a Mustang. The GT-40 manifold kit, which is claimed to be one of the best, which includes the base, and runners/box, is a mere $599. Then $200 at MAX for a BBK Tbody. So your up to roughly $800.

Only a $150 difference u say? Yeah, but its the difference from the best of theirs to the cheapest of ours.

If companies would pull their heads outa their asses, the would realize that they COULD sell, and make more, if their prices were reasonable. Just my thoughts on this.

u r sofa king we tah did

just take it with a grain of salt. hell, just because someone gets on here and can run their mouth doesnt mean they are actually better, have more knowledge, have more money, or whatever it may be. actually it just shows their complete ignorance of them trying to act superior to people behind a computer screen. completely pointless. im in the same boat you are, 20 years old, have a decent job, pay my own bills (2 cars,insurance, and a house payment) and work on my cars myself. just because someone doesnt have the money to spend on mods doesnt mean they are cheap at all. thats pretty damn low that someone would actually say that about other people they dont even know. and for it to come from moderators, keep up the excellent work guys. class act. the people with the "oh i could have a fourth gen or any car i damn well wanted" make me laugh. i think its so stupid when people get on boards like this and try to make showboat comments like that, when the truth is they probably wouldnt even qualify to finance one. but then again, i guess ill stick to being "cheap" because i wouldnt pay 1300 for a "T-RAM" or a super ram.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Wow, do I agree with you guys. Everything all of u are saying is completely correct.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

If you really think the thirdgen market is better than the mustang market, you're missing a significant chunk of the big picture.

One of the best examples I can give is Cyberbrawl. Here was an event designed for various websites to come together and drag race. It was advertised easily a year in advance of the event. MANY people signed up and said they were going, etc. When the day came, do you know how many people were there racing for thirdgen.org in thirdgen fbodies? 3. 3 out of 20+ that signed up. 3 out of 6,000 members. Wanna now how many 5.0 mustangs were there? More than I can count.

For a Ford enthusiast the performance options are extremely limited. You've got the Mustang, and thats about it. Thats the way its been since the 70's.

For a GM enthusiast, you've got the Camaro, the Firebird, the Corvette, the Monte Carlo, the S10/Syclone/ZQ8/Typhoon, the Grand National, the Grand Prix GT, the Bonneville SSEi, the Impala SS, the Grand Am, etc...

Of the GM cars how many use basically the same parts? The Camaro and Firebird... The corvette uses SOME of the same engine parts, but most are unique.

Also, Ford had an indepth part in developing high performance parts for the 5.0, including factory racing parts.

That's why you have the ford market with much lower prices.

As for my attitude as a moderator, if anyone has a problem with how I feel about most other thirdgen owners, that doesn't bother me. I'm not here to make friends, many of the ideas and actions of people here disgust me, and I don't have a problem being honest about it. The bitching never stops and its always about the same basic topics. I've been on this board since 1997. I've read the same topics over and over and over again. It tends to get old but I stay around cause I'm diehard about these cars. Moderators don't become moderators just cause we're here. There is some reason or other that we're trusted to do our jobs. Without moderators this site would be a joke. Judging by the extreme amount of traffic and the lack of traffic on other thirdgen sites, I'd say we must be doing something right. Most of the moderators and myself have been around, we've paid our dues, and we'll still be here long after the majority of members have moved on to whatever projects are in thier futures.

u r sofa king we tah did

your exactly right, perfect example. sorry but theres a buttload of people accessing the internet. just because one person comes along with a question about an intake manifold and a different person comes along a few weeks later and has the same question doesnt mean that its a stupid question and its getting over asked. ive been reading this site for a little while now and ive seen a few (not all, most of em seem down to earth) moderators bitch about this very thing over and over and over again. take the mod glenn on the prom board for example, i have NEVER ONCE seen that guy take a shot at anyone unprovoked. he answers all questions he can with a legit honest answer, no matter how simple or complex. all that damn knowledge of prom burning and they guy will bend over backwards to help you out. ive emailed him a couple of times about prom stuff, and im sure he gets ALOT of emails so the ones out of the bunch i sent probably dont amount to a hill of beans to him, but i guarantee you he emailed me back with his best opinion on the situation, and he didnt snap back with a stupid remark just because hes seen the question before.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I treat everyone the same, no favorites. My opinion is that if someone can't help themself then I'm not going to go well out of my way to help them. If someone emails me I usually go the extra mile to help them out. If I see a question here that was posted a week or a month ago, or even 6 months ago, I'll tell them to search for it. Because I could spend 3 minutes replying with as much as I can remember or I can take 30 seconds and say "do a search" and they can spend 2 minutes and they'll have more info than any one person could ever give them and they don't have to wait two days for 30 people to reply with various answers that may or may not be correct.

In this case, its a debate thats come up before, countless times, and it doesn't matter because no one is going to do anything to change the situation. If people want to change a bad situation they need to stop preaching to the choir and start taking care of business.

u r sofa king we tah did

just to let you know, ive got absolutley nothing against you, nor am taking personal slams at you. just stating my own personal opinion, which is what i hope (seems that way) you are doing too. we just seem to be a couple of the few discussing this matter. but i have to agree and say the "cheap" comment was very uncalled for.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

No personal shots here, but this is a good example of the kind of things that get threads like this going the way it is. I really do think the cheap comment was uncalled for, and didnt not need to be said. It turned a simple discussion of why the t-ram is no longer made, into a brawl about people being too cheap. Face it, the after market for TPI is expensive. When someone wants a fast car, they usually think of how fast it is, and how much it costs to make it faster. Honestly, if i didnt love 3rd gens, and hate fords so much, I would have bought a Mustang. Theyre cheap, fairly quick, and cheap to make quicker. If performance mods for our cars were cheaper, I can guarantee that they would be MUCH more popular than they are. 3rd gens have a stereotype of being slow. Many are, compared to alot of cars on the road today. For those of us who ARE fast (not really including myself) its pretty damn rare to say the least. The aftermarket could breath life into our cars, as well as into their buisness. They just need to see that some how or another.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Theres lots of people here that aren't cheap. U can't expect every1 to have $$ though. But imagine the look on a dudes face when he just gets his car, wants to mod it, comes here to learn, and sees the price of our TPI stuff and headers. Not cheap, its just that some things are outrageously priced, and that reaction can make that impression.

Beefy89

The quote I got for the new Holley Stealth Ram was,$265 for the manifold,and $155 for the fuel rail. I'm just waiting to see some real numbers before I order it.

Like many others I refuse to pay $1000 or more for an intake setup.Maybe Holley has come through for us!

IROC57TPI

Hey mods....why not post a new topic to discuss your ethics?

This one was/is about the T-Ram, remember? Isn't it your job's to police things like discussions off topic?

Thanks

IROC57TPI

YOU HAVE MY ATTENTION :hail: :lala:

This is what every cheap *** thirdgenner needs (myself included )