I own a 92 Rs and am looking into building a nasty 350 over the next 2 years. Im looking into getting about 450 - 500 hp and trq out of it. With stickies out back and maybe 3.73 gears, im ABSOLUTLY POSITIVE that my t-5 wont last one second under that kind of stress. Can anyone offer up a tranny that wil be able to withstand this punishment?? I was actually thinking of switching over to an auto trans just to reduce wear on it. Can this be done? How much fabrication is needed? Any other advise?? thanks in advance

mitch :lala:

 

your right, your T5 probably wont hold up that kind of power. A T56 might, or you could change over to a auto, which would be pretty easy. A 700R4, turbo 350 or 400 could be built to withstand that power.

BTW, if you are changing to auto, let me know, i might know someone that will take the parts of your hands


good luck

 

I love my T-56 and I will never go with anything different. I have a 4.10 and could definately go 4.56. I am always in my power band.:hail: T-56

 

what would have to be done to switch over to an auto trans. Also, what would have to be done to the auto tranny to "bulletproof" it to this kind of power??

 

try richmondgear.com That's where I'm going next year....bad money times this year, toy's on hold.

 

does anyone know what the power/torque rating is on the tremec t-56 ???

 

I'm happy with my TKO.
Rated at over 500 ft/lbs.
While my car only has about 317 hp and 400 ft/lbs, I know of people that have TKO's in their race cars that make well over 500 hp/500 ft/lbs.
http://www.fortesparts.com/tremec/
-Rich-

 

I think you're jumping the gun. The only thing that's going to kill a T5 in GOOD SHAPE to begin with , is speed-shifting, dropping the clutch at higher RPM etc.


If you're getting ANY kind of traction with that kind of power you're planning on, you'll be looking to upgrade the rear end, long before the T5...if of course you don't abuse it with the above conditions.


And the T56 is not rated that much higher, when you're talking torque rating, unless you're referring to the Viper version. And it's not like 4th gen owners don't have plenty of troubles with the T56.....rebuilds under warranty in STOCK 4th gens is not that uncommon.


I like manual tranny's, but you need to know the limitations of them up front. It's all relative to abuse.


Everyone always bad mouths the T5 and goes on about how strong the old 4 speeds ( Muncie etc ) were / are....


My 1st car was a 67 Chevelle with a BBC and a 4 speed. At one point I was keeping a spare tranny in the trunk....until I learned about shifting using the clutch, and the benefit of a SMOOTH launch.


There was a local guy running a S10 truck with a 408 and a T5, and he was well into the 12's on street tires with something like 1.8 60ft times. He said the T5 was out of his 130k mile Firebird, and all he'd done was replace seals. He was also running synthetic fluid....or gear oil as the older T5's were. Last I heard from him it had over 100 1/4 mile runs on it....


Another thing to consider is the actual hydraulics that feed the clutch... from the factory, the hydraulic lines are necked down in most applications...this caused less fluid and in effect, a less positive clutch engagement. This can be worked around as well...



All in all, the T5 can hold up if treated properly. When you get slicks, and start getting traction, then problems will arise.


Just my highly inflated 2 cents



Later

 

What is a good auto trans for dealing with around 500 ft/lbs?

someone said a t350 - t400 but i havent been able to find much info on them...

 

Well ....i have one of them T-5's WC and I have to say The synchros are gone and it had alot of bearing noise in 1st , 2nd , and 3rd ...... I liked the ratios ( even with my crappy 3.08 posi )

.....I have actually never heard of someone " breaking " one . just wearing down the components

my .02

BTW .....I am now confused on wither to get a TKO or not ( I will need it eventually )


Anyone know of the official website ( or phone # ) to wear I can find the actuall tourque rateing on the T-5 WC

..... 89 5.0L 5-speed

 

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm

this page shows the non-world class t5 rates at a whopping 265 ft/lbs.
WC then moved up to 300 ft/lbs (in 1990) and finally, the 94-95 Cobra got a rating of 330 ft/lbs (not available in GM)

So best case the WC T5's in F-bodys are rated at 300 ft/lbs.

I destroyed mine (the first time) behind a stock 305.
Yes , I did abuse it. Banging second gear will take the syncros out and it's hard on the forks as well. To be fair, banging second in any trans will eventually destroy syncros, but in my WC T5, I wasted second and third gear, two forks and the syncros.

ctandc is correct in that it's all relative to abuse.

Since installing a 400 ft/lb motor, I hoped it would last a year. Well, sure enough, 11 months after the motor installation, it started growling, making bearing noises and started to just plain feel sloppy. I haven't been banging gears with it much, but it has seen a bunch of full throttle, traction limiting upshifts.

Still, I prefer to have something that will take more abuse than the T5. If you're gonna put a powerful motor in your car, you're probably gonna abuse the tranny now and then. I sleep better knowing I won't have to rebuild my T5 a third time.
I'm selling mine to a guy that has a lightweight street rod with a flathead V8 (very low torque).It will probably last indefinetely in that.

Outlaw 305: a TH 400 will live quite well behind a 500 ft/lb big block. If you need four speeds a 4l80E is nice , but it requires it's own computer.

-Rich-

 

I believe Probuilt makes a 700R4 that'll withstand what you're looking to do. You might also look into a Raptor 700R4 I have heard good things about those and from what I can tell they're excellent.

 

wait, does the th 400 only have 3 gears?? I would like to have a least 4. Also , can someone explain to me stall.. and what would be a good number for a street / strip application?

 

Converter Stall Speed selection depends on a lot of things:
Engine's torque output, vehicle weight, gearing, etc.
You'll want to talk to an automatic trannie guru about your specific combination before spending big $$ on a hi stall converter.
-Rich-

 

anyone else have an opinion on which auto tranny would be best ( 4 or more gears ) and how to beef it to handle 500 ft/lbs?

 

I have been looking at some sites selling TKO t56 transmissions. The only torque ratings I can find say 450.

Where are the stronger trannys?

thanks:hail: :hail:

 

What can handle that power? Possibly a T56. Richmond manuals are known to be strong and therefore should be handle that output without a problem.

My father has a Tremec TKO 5 speed in his Shelby Cobra which has a 427c.i. motor that was dyno'd at 550hp/595tq. No problems with the tranny whatsoever. Experience is gospel.

 

before i got my TKO i swear i could feel the T5 wrap up under power, felt like a torsion bar. That can't be good, i wonder if thats why it leaked soo bad??

 

is that tremec 5-speed TKO the same size as the stock t-5?
If not... what kind of fabrication is required?`

 

It is a little bigger. Crossmember is spaced down 3/4".Comes with an adapter plate to bolt it to the stock T5 bellhousing. Stock driveshaft is re-used, but need to change front yoke and U-joint.
Torque arm bolts up too.
-Rich-

 

Rich,
What tanny do you have in your car (92rs350.... just guessing from the name) did you have the auto or manual tranny stock?

 

hmm.. that temec tko 5-speed is looking pretty nice ...:rockon:
I was thinking about my whole situation as well. Instead of building my own engine (which would take a while ) i might go wit that ZZ4 350... anybody hear any complaints about it?

 

If you want to keep the car a manual trans. I would look into the Tremec TKO. I have had very good look with these trans. I have mainly used them in mustangs. I know the TKO will handle the abuse of 500hp all day long. I have a buddy with a mustang that has a TKO and his car runs 6.30's in the 1/8. I don't think you could go wrong with the TKO. Just my $.02

 

Everyone that has the ZZ4 crate motor loves it.

It is not the fastest thing in the world, but if you want a 350 that will really put you in the back of the seat while retaining stock daily driveability and emissions passing capabilities, this is the motor for you.

 

My car was originally a 305 tbi (170hp), 5 speed (T5) with rear drums, no posi.]
It now has a 300 HP 350 crate motor:
http://www.goautocenter.com/300hp_tpi_1987-89.htm
Forte's Tremec TKO and Posi, disc rear with 3.73 Richmond Gears.

It's not the fastest car around, but it'll take new Cobras all day long.

-Rich-

 

So if i snapped a Tremec tko 5-speed ( i do love my manual tranny... i would be sad to lose it... ) it would be able to handle the ZZ4 with NO problem.. or possible the Fastburn 385 w/ LT4 cam Upgrade?
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...=1587&pid=2598

Does anyone know what pistons come in the ZZ4.. incase i wanted to use a power adder in the future. Hypernautic (sp ) wont cut it right? i should buy forged.

Rich, since you have already done a engine swap on the Exact same year as mine w/ same options.. what else did you have to do when you sunk that thing under your hood?I have a feeling that i will be going carbed with a new engine. New clutch and flexplate?? I dont know a whole lot about transmitions. Do they come with the tranny or buy em seperate? Also, what did you have to do to your rear end? 12 bolt or 9 inch? ( i was also planing on using 3.73 gaers. Any info you can give me would be great. Thanks

mitch

 

The TKO will be very happy behind a 350 or 383 crate motor.
You can use the stock hydraulics, fork, bellhousing, etc.
I'm using the Hayes 30 lb billet flywheel (#10-530) and Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch (#DF1611056), Centerforce Throwout Bearing (#N1716) and Moroso Roller Pilot Bearing (#41100) all available from Jegs or Summit.

I bought a used rearend from an earlier Z28 and bought the Ratech rebuild kit (bearings, Seals, etc) Richmond 3.73 gears and a Summit cover/support girdle. Used a solid pinion spacer (instead of the crush sleeve) and had the axle tubes welded to the center section all the way around (stock is just a couple of rosette welds). I had a friend that knows how to set up rearends do the work (I don't have much experience with the rears, other than swapping them).
About everything you can do to beef up a 7-5/8" 10 bolt.
Still not a very strong rear, but much better than stock.
If you're gonna drag race with slicks, this won't be enough.
Look for a 12 bolt (or 9" Ford) if you're gonna do that.
My RS is set up for fun street driving (light to light drag races)and occasional track days, so the rear doesn't get too much abuse.
My drag car is a 70 Nova SS396, with a 454, Automatic and 4.10 12 bolt.

Any late small block will bolt right in pretty easily.
I like the steel motor and trans mounts and have been running them in most of my cars for years.
Motor Mounts: Moroso#62510 (pair)
Frame Mounts (lower mount) : Moroso #62610 (pair)
Transmission Mount: Moroso #62600


I'm pretty sure the ZZ comes with Hypereutectic pistons (sp?). They'll survive a while with a small (75-100HP) shot, but if you're gonna use it regularly, forged pistons are worth the extra $$.

-Rich-

 

about how much did the whole clutch assembley cost you?

 

The Flywheel was $229, Clutch was $265 (pressure plate and disc), $33 for the throwout bearing and $15 for the pilot bearing.
So, about $550 total.
All from Summit and/or Jegs mail order.
-Rich-

 

Did you read?

The TKO sits behind my fathers 427 big block with 600ft lbs.

I say again: Experience is gospel.

 

I read, and if you bothered to read you would have seen I read the info about a tko 6 speed and it was rated at 450 ft lbs.

I was just asking if there was a stronger transmission that you might have used besides the ones I found.

 

Well the Tremec TKO 5-speed looks like the tranny for me...I wonder how long my t5 will last behind the zz4 or the fast burn though... cant wait to find out !!

thanks for all your helps guys.

Mitch

 

A TKO is nice but a bit pricey compared to what you can find T56s for.

Also, most T56s don't all out break, they go through synchros when you put big power to them - and in most cases the driver has been hard on it (power shifting). Contrary to somewhat popular belief, you don't have to power shift to be fast.....

T5s on the other hand, WC or not, have been known to (no first hand experience with this but I have heard they are known to) actually shatter gears and snap input shafts with lots of power put to them. I've heard virtually nothing but good things about the TKO aside from not having the extra OD gear of the T56 .

 

Welll .....I seen 'em break ( T-56) BTW the TKO does have a stronger rateing! Also the T-56 is alot more money .....I would like to see where you can get one cheaper ! I have been researching these two perticular tranny's and ..... with all the conversion crap for the t-56 ( pluse the new clutch) it is way more .... for less strength ( they are really pretty close but ......)

anyhow here goes this

price out a t-56 clutch vs the stock T-5
price out those t-56's sgain ....they are a alot more money
the TKO bolts right up ( stock drive shaft .. no cutting)

..... sure the T-56 is nice ( I want one but ......)

the richmond 6 speed is 1000 more and I cant get a USED one ( with all the necassary stuff ) for under 2500 .....I can have a BRAND NEW TKO for 2200- 2300 shipped to my door ....with all of the stuff needed for the install

...not flameing friend ...just giveing a heads up

 

here are the REAL stats from TTC technologies ( TREMIC)


here is for the TKO , and TKO II tranny's


here is the t-56 ...... pick one ????

here is the richmond 6- speed at summit ..... pick one


stat wise they are pretty close ( even that final OD gear) $$$$$ they are not. the only one that seems to be stronger is that one 6- speed from TTC ...... but with all those choices ...i dunno if they are the same ones or not


hope it helps all

 

No flaming intended here either, but I don't need to price anything out for a T56 swap - I HAVE a T56 in my GTA. It didn't put itself in there nor did it pick out and order its own parts .

The clutch price is a non-issue. If you want a good clutch they are both going to cost you around $500 without a flywheel (give or take a little). I suppose if you went with a poop clutch from your local parts store, the T5 one would be cheaper.

If you can't find a T56 swap kit (for a fourth gen mind you) for under $2500 you need to reexamine your methods. You can get a used T56 (look around long enough and you can even find one with low miles) with everything required except the proper crossmember for $1000-1500 (I got mine for $800 and got it COMPLETELY installed (by me of course) for ~$1800 and that's a new McLeod clutch, Pro 5.0, brand new hydraulics, 4th gen 6-speed console, etc. etc.). Call SpeedAutomotive (link on my site) for a T56 kit or just watch Ebay as they show up on there fairly often as well.

Also, you absolutely DO NOT need a different driveshaft for the T56..... And the only cutting you need to do if you are already basing this on a T5 car is cutting back about two inches farther on the shifter opening.

You said above that you have never seen a WC T5 break but now you claim to know of T56s actually breaking?

The Richmond listed in Summit is rated to 450 ftlbs.
The TKO II ($$$$$$$) is rated at 475 ftlbs.
The TKO is rated at 425 ftlbs.
The T56 is rated at 450 ftlbs (94-up models)

And the T56 has tighter ratios than the TKOs (either one).

Just want to make sure the people considering this stuff know the whole truth.

 

i've seen TKO's ( not TKO II's) rated at 525 ft lbs. P{ossibly due to a higher strength inputshaft in the GM versions vs the ford inputshafts.

 

I've not seen such a model and would welcome evidence of such a unit.

The thing that ususally limits the torque rating of manual transmissions is the tall-ness of the low gear ratio(s).

 

Hey,
just wondering where you can get a price list on the tremec trannys, Thanks:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is the design of the factory hydraulics for both the T5 and the T56. Search the 4th gen sites and I'm sure you would run across somebody mentioning this... from the factory, the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder is necked down. This effects the engaging / releasing of the clutch. It can also cause premature tranny failure.

As for all the tranny's mentioned.....they ALL can break. I hear so many people tout how strong the Muncie's were, and I guess they were. Problem was the cases liked to flex...and that sucks.

Almost every tranny you find will have it's downsides and weaknesses. But I still maintain, that the BIGGEST SINGLE reason for manual tranny failures is the DRIVER!!! It's like all the guys who say an auto tranny is always more consistent when drag racing....not if you're good at driving a stick

I've seen a couple of T5's from V6 cars live behind built up small blocks. I've also seen V-8 T5's crap out behind stock 305 TBI motors.......etc etc. I still think in alot of cases that has to do with previous owner and current owner abuse.


I'm going to a WC T5. I'll have about $600 in the entire swap once I actually have time to get it done. I indeed may move onto a T56 in the future, but I like the 'shock' factor of a T5 holding up behind a strong 350. Just like I plan on trying to see how much I can get out of the TPI LTR setup without going overboard.



Simple fact...if you like to speed shift, and jam gears and abuse thet tranny, take your pick. Any of them could break....some cost alot more, and some may last longer...it's really a crapshoot.



As for price, I've seen used LT1 T56 tranny's go for as little as $500 and as much as $1800. Kind of crazy, when you can talk to Liberty transmission and get a NEW aftermarket style T56 for $1800, but hey that's just me.



Later

 

Really ????!!!!!!!

Well can you please give me the link ( I always wanted the T-56 ) but I found it WAY to expensive ....even used


.....and I really neeeddddd a tranny > I am still open to suggestions .........hay 6 are better than 5 but ....I can t find 'em THAT cheap ( and I have looked !!! )

 

They don't have a website. But here's the contact info..

Liberty Transmission
313 278-4040

Ask for Paul or Darrell


And I was WRONG......the new T56 isn't $1800........it's $1875



BEST part of the aftermarket T56 is the fact it uses a mechanical speedo.



HTH

 

here is the link
http://www.fortesparts.com/tremec/tr3550-2.html
granted its off the forte's web site, i am under the impression that the Tremec's for GM's don't come with the correct input shaft from tremec, and that forte's gets them made from tremec and installs them. this tremec input shaft is supposedly of higher quality than the othes that sell this tranny, they may not be made by tremec.

I looked into the T-56 swap before getting the TKO, and would prefer it based on ratio's but i didn't want to spend as much as the TKO would cost on a used tranny, i had my clutch and lakewood bellhousing already. Also as i said i believe the TKO is stronger( I could be wrong ). Another added expense for me was that i have a 3.27 9 bolt and since the strong T-56's have a 2.65 first gear i would have had to change gears in the 9 Bolt which we all know isn't cheap either.

In driving the TKO i don't feel the slightest protest from it, i would like tighter ratios. Overall its a quantum leat from the T5 which frankly would make me really uneasy when at full throttle. I said it before it felt like a torsion bar. I figured i would grenade it eventually and then again so i bought the bullit anf went TKO.

 

Hey before you go ordering the aftermarket style t56 look at what you have to do to install it, that involves a lot of cutting! Thats why most people go with a LT1 style t56, its a boltup...well it needs the crossmember, and a slightly bigger hole for the shifter, but it does not involve cutting. BTW I get a rebuilt 94 t56 for $1100 off ebay included bell housing and clutch fork. I think my total for install will be near $2200-$2400 depending on the options I go with. I gotta go out to the car later today and pull the alternator and find out what block I am running so I know which flywheel to get....but there are other options hat will effect the price more lol. Still I haven't heard anything bad about a t56 and that .5 gear is what drew me in, I do drive my car on the street and I do not like 8MPG highway milage because in TX it's speed or get hit, so I go 80 w/ 3.73s and run at 3500 rpm lol. (Just for comparison assuming I have the small motor, a 305 5 liter, my friends 2.0 liter saturn with half the cylinders runs at 2400 rpm going 80....lol Hes using what, a 3rd of the gas I am lol)

 

Thanks for that link. I was always under the impression that you had to go to the TKO II to have something a bit stronger than a T56 (not much either) and that the regular TKO was a bit weaker. Learn things every day .

I hear ya on buying a used transmission. You do take a chance when going used. I was lucky enough to find one within my local F-body club so I knew for sure that it worked at least well enough for the guy to drive the car that it came out of before he wrecked it and I got to check it out in person before buying it (and I didn't have to waste money on shipping).

After installing my T56 and having driven it for a while, I do have a few minor synchro issues from time to time and some bearing noise, but it still shifts smoothly 99% of the time and the bearing noise is nothing you don't hear from any manual trans that has some miles on it. But there is something to be said about going brand new.

The 6 gears and tight ratios (for the 94-up ones) definately attracted me to the T56 option when my TH700R4. I like the flexibility of rear gear ratios you have with the not so steep first gear and double ODs with the .5 6th. But I would have to agree after driving mine around with the 3.42s that those 3.27s of yours would not be a lot of fun on the street. I mean you can always rev it up and slip the clutch or spin the tires to get going when you are racing, but trying to take off nice and easy next to Grandma Willis on the street with the 3.27s and the shallow first gear of the T56 with a cammed up engine would pretty much suck.

 

if you are going to go auto
I would go 4L80-E
basically a turbo 400 with an overdrive

 

also something to note is that the strong T56's don't have the .5 od, i think its .62 in 6th and like .8 in 5th. The tko has a .68 fifth. The ratio spread on the t56 would probably be great for road racing ( i would love it for that) but for the street i think it might be at a slight disadvantage. To get a similar first gear ratio as the TKO ( in my case 3.27 x 3.27=10.69) would require 4.10's with a T56 10.69/2.65 first gear = 4.03. In fifth gear with the TKO i am at a 3.27 x .68= 2.22. the strong .62 od t56 with the above 4.11's has a 2.54 final drive. Thats another reason i got the TKO. I think overall for a touquey 383 like mine the TKO works out better ( my opinion based on my needs) if i were running a really cammy 350 i might go T56 ( based on ratios). there are times with the tko that 3rd is too steep and 4th is too tall. Overall if price were no object and i had to do it again i think i would take a really good look at the richmond sixspeed but again Price is an issue.

 

[QUOTE][i]and a slightly bigger hole for the shifter, but it does not involve cutting. BTW I get a rebuilt 94 t56 for $1100 off ebay included bell housing and clutch fork. I think my total for install will be near $2200-$2400 depending on the options I go with.

You need more than the bellhouseing and clutch fork you are forgetting .....

-fabricated crossmember
- T-56 bellhouseing
-t-56 shifter
t-56 flywheel for one piece rear seal or or a centerforce 2 piece rear main seal - ctf 700107
t-56 clutch disc
t-56 clutch pressure plate
t-56 sealed Master/ Slave cylinder
and all the accosiate dhardware
... oh ya the speedo conversion kit ( about $300 )
again I ask where you can get all this for that cheap

.... cause I would love a 6 speed but .... will try the #'s posted above to see .

thanx again

 

D's89IROCZ, I did my entire swap for about $1800. While I will admit that I am certainly on the low end for an estimate on what it will take to do the swap, I also disagree with your figures. I got my gearbox, bellhousing, pedals, lower shift boot, and flywheel for $830 and went BRAND NEW on everything else (Pro 5.0 shifter, McLeod clutch, GM Hydraulics, Spohn CM, SGI-5 box, bolts, wiring, etc.) and still only spent that. And you don't need to fabricate a crossmember - Spohn makes one . With the deals I see on Ebay and classified boards you can easily go with a T56 and keep it under $2000 if you don't go with an aftermarket short shifter and performance clutch - which you would be buying anyways if you went with any of the trans options out there so you can't hold it only against the T56 option in a comparison.

Laiky - you got em mixed up . The steep first geared (2.97:1) 93 model (for F-bodies at least) T56 is the one with the .62:1 6th gear. The 2.66:1 first gear equipped T56 can have either of those overdrive packages (.62 or .50) but the F-bodies have the .50:1 version.

You make a good point about which one to run for road racing versus drag racing or street driving duties. But really there is no reason not to run the 94-up model T56. True, you have to go with a fairly steep rear gear, but like you pointed out, the effective ratio of the entire drivetrain is what you need to think about. So going with the tighter ratio-ed 94-up T56 with whatever rear gear you desire (or need) for your application and taking full advantage of the tightest ratio package you can is the way to go.

But hey . To each his own.

 

I think i'm partially wrong , the one on the Spohn website has a 2.97 first and a .62 6th. I could however swear that the early f body t56 had the .7 and .5 od. on the tremec website they list about 15 versions most of the .5 od versions only have a 2.97 or higher first gear