How quick has someone gone in a 700 R4 equiped car? I hear all the time that they are not the best trannys for drag racing, but in a dual purpose car, I would hate to give up overdrive.

 

I am sure I don't have the quickest 700r4 run but I ran a best of 10.97 @127 on a 700r4. 60' was 1.505.

 

I believe they are the best "all around" transmissions. If built right, why not drag racing?

 

Problems I've been told, Ineffecient, uses a lot of horse power to turn.

First gear to second gear, to big of a gear drop. Rpms drop to much in this gear change.

 

True. The rpm drop helps my combination due to the very low torque peak. Probably does use too much power to turn also. Excellent durability(in my car anyway) and great gas milage make me a believer. I have not had the usual problems with this trans.

 

we have a customer that has gone 10.56 128 mphwith 87 ssmcarlow/406 cid all motor.car is on my homepage yaanking the wheels on the street in the bronx.the problem is too much rotating speed in the transmission hurts accelleration in max effort cars.should be used with numerically low final drives and engines with wide powerbands,preferably in the 3000 rpm range without flat spots or spiking.we also have a 2.66 first gear ratio 700r4.this unique gearset eliminates the problems associated with too much rotating speed in the transmission and the resultant rpm drop amount on ratio changes.one of our test cars equipt with a supercharged 406 making 600 horsepower regularly tests our 70r4s before being shipped out to customers.

 

imo 700r4 is the best overall for automatics. You can retrofit it into almost anything without worying about ECM issues and you get an overdirve to keep it street driving friendly. Gotta love the OD when you have steep gears like my 3.73s. If you dont like launches in OD, just drop it into D/3rd before you giddy-up and go.

 

Pro-Built has a guy running 10s or possibly even high 9s with either a 700R4 or 4L60E he built. The guy has hundreds of passes on it without a single problem.

I don't think a 700R4 is that inefficient. Probably no more so than a TH350, definately better than a TH400. Nothing beats a 'glide.

I felt the 700R4 properly built was adequate for my truck, which makes about 360 hp and runs 38.5" tires and 4.88 gears. The stock trans made it 130,000 miles with nothing more than routine maintenence. At about 105,000 I installed a B&M shift kit and converter when I swapped engines. I also recalibrated the governor to shift at 5,800 RPM instead of 4,800 RPM. I was never easy on it either. I used to love to embarass people on the highway with it. I pulled at least two truck lengths on a guy in a Porsche Boxster from 80-100MPH once. Man his winkie must have looked extra small when he got home that day!

chris718, I'll be checking out that low gearset you mentioned. That'd be great for guys running cars. Personally I like the 3.06 first gear in the truck, because it gives me a beter crawl ratio for rocks and tight trails. Though at some point I may run dual transfer cases to get a super low crawl, and then I'd prefer to have better gear spacing, since I won't realy need the tall 1st gear anymore. For now it's still got the stock 208 case, which it will run until it explodes.

 

I am interested in that gear set also. Whats it run? Did not see it on your website.

 

Floor Guy has a 700R4 in his car. This transmission has held up for many high 10, and low 11 second blast. I might add that he has had this unit in his car as long as Ive known him.

This trans. was built by one of the best guys in our area, and he had mentioned that alot of the things you hear about the 700R4s is just hype.

One is, if the car sees the street alot, he does not install the clutches with the red or blue linings. Doesnt use kevlar bands either. I know of a few guys having their shift kits set up on the softer side, too.

Are some people more lucky than others? without stuff breaking? That may be. But when you see these things really work, with the "wrong parts", makes you wonder!

Now that we are not afraid to rebuild them ourselves, I cant wait till we refresh his just to see what really made it tick.

BTW, the 383 is hurt right now, but that "weak" 700r4, well, it never skipped a beat!

 

Kevlar bands aren't the hot ticket for 700R4s. The engagaemnt characteristics of Kevlar are very harsh. They definately aren't suited to street cars. Just like a Kevlar clutch on a stick car. The B/W high energy band seems to be the prefered band to use.

It seems to be the consensus of the good 700R4 builders that the B/W high energy frictions are the way to go too. The alto red frictions and Kolene steels that used to be the bread and butter of auto trans builders aren't the hot ticket anymore. Technology evolves.

The reason that the TransGo shift kit is beter than the B&M is that the part throtle shifts, shift quality, and shift firmness are all address for upshifts as well as downshifts. Again, technology has advanced. There's no longer a need to slam, bang the clutches and block the accumulators solid. The friction materials are at the point where you can have a trans that shifts silky smooth at part throttle, but drop the hammer and it'll bang gears with the best of them.

 

It is my understanding, that the real weak spots in these transmissions are the way the factory assembled them.

You can install the best parts in the world, and if you ignore the assembly checks and procedures, it will be a big pile of wasted metal.

I agree with your statement on all the fancy stuff you mentioned, TKO.

Every one I know with 11 and 12 second cars, with the 700R4 has the basic upgrades, an improved 3-4 clutch pak, with 8 or 9, instead of the 6. A quality rebuild kit, and an improved reaction sun shell. I rarely see anyone upgrading the housing and shaft assembly.

With the proper parts, and a lack of ignorance, and a "meticulous" attention to detail, the trans will live ....Tom

 

Exactly. Also, upgrading an older trans with a 10 vane pump is worthwhile too. The stock 7-vane pumps aren't nearly as good. Use the unbreakable pump rings too.

GM started off with something that they continually refined from 1982 into the present. That's 23 years of development. The trans got better along the way. The new 4L65Es are light years ahead of the original 700R4, even though the former is just the evolution of the later. A lot of the good upgrades for early 700R4s are stock on later model trannys, like the 10-vane pumps and greater number of 3/4 frictions and steels.

The 700R4 like any part responds best to a well thought out build using parts shown time and time again to work well, and accurate assembly. The secret isn't one or two "trick" parts, but many, many small things that add up to give you a trans that is stronger than its individual parts.

 

I do not mean to put an advertisement here, but people who build great trannys need to get recognized. The tranny shop is called Coast Transmissions in Half Moon Bay California.
The 700 tranny is a great transmission if it is properly built. One of my buddies gave me a great Transmission shop to go to that builds strong transmissions. I decided to get a new tranny because I put on a lot of miles on it. I told the owner of the shop if he could build a srong transmisson for me and he did. He put a Kevlar band and other goodies. The transmission is great. I love it. The guys did such a great job on my tranny I have sent all of my cars to them.

 

BTW we installed a 13 vane in mine. Dont get me wrong, Im not a trans specialist, Ive only assisted in my rebuild.

I remember about 25 years ago, when I had no idea of the workings of an internal combustion engine either. But since this tranny thing bit me, (actually it bit floorguy),LOL, its been very interesting to say the least.

Any body can just throw a small block 350 together. Will it get you to the store? Maybe. Will it survive in an 11 sec. car? No way.

Ive found that this trans. thing is just like any other. Give it 100% and you will love the results. Dive in with less, and you will be blaming the parts people for putting such lousy merchandise on the market. ( not that this never happens).

 

Good to hear about you trans. holding up.

You are right, there are "hole in the wall" shops that are putting out some serious stuff. I know a few, and a friend of mine is seriously trying to pursue this line of work too.

 

gear set consists of the front and rear planets as first gear ratio is calculated via the 2 .this also change 2nd and reverse gear,although not a problem you lose some reduction in reverse.this package is available in our 700r4 stage 2 for an additional 900 dollars.we have 14 in use so far without probleems and also make a e4340 output shaft for this unit.for a list of whats needed at what power levels just read the build ups on our site.the stage 2 now includes the 5 pinion gm ffront and rear carriers as well as our modified /heat cured reaction tube,as well as many other new calibration tricks.

 

Floorguy, How much power do you think the 700R4 uses up?

 

I am not sure, a dyno operator(rear wheel) told me they use a silly amount. 50 or 60 I believe. It was a 98 degree day and he was sunstroked and drinkin a bit so I never trusted those numbers.

 

the efficiency of the 700 is awesome.the reson is there is no heavy direct drum that must spin against the engine in 1st gear at almost three times engine speed and then stop on a 1/2 shift,and then reacellerate agin withthe rest of the gear train in high gear.instead the 3/4 clutch pack is always rotating in the direction of application with the input housing resulting in less power robbing drag and reduced overlap when releasing the band and sun gear .however for those who understand the "held divided by the driven"concept of basic planetary gear operation there is quite a bit of rotating speed going on in the trans when in first gear reduction.this coupled with the improper clutch application pressure ,reduced oil flow rates due to restictions,line pressure that doesnt rise equally at a rate of 36.25 %for every 22.5 degrees or 1/4 of the throttle,low accumulator back pressure at all throttle angles especially above 5/8 of the trottle,inadequate 3/4 clutch capacity and unbalanced 2/3 accumulator feed crcuitry(in the form of band knock off oil)can understand why failures are usually always in the same areas.fortunately some have studied the circuits and generated real world products to put an end to them.btw,kevlar as a band only has a place in a powerglide where it doesnt carry an upshift torque load,and even then i wouldnt use it.i use only alto red wide bands in the 700r4 and 9 allomatic 3/4 plain paper frictions with .080"steels and a .100 apply and pressure plate.all other combos have bit the dust in my testing,and we were even contacted by raybestos to test the blue plate ,and z pack.we furnished them with our findings,pleasant or unpleasant as we saw it.

 

chris718, have you seen a lot of failures with 4 pinion planetaries? I'm curious, because I talked to Dana at Pro-Built about swapping to the later model 5-pinion units and he said don't bother. Keep in mind my power level is fairly low (360 HP/420 lbs/ft.), but he also said that the guy running low 10s high 9s with one of his 700s is only using the 4-pinions. His thoughts were that the 4-pinions take less power to drive than the 5-pinions. I'm just trying to compare notes, not say one of you is right and the other is wrong.

Everyone consider this. A 4L80E sucks up about 25% of an engine's flywheel power. I think only using 50-60HP makes the 700R4 look like a very efficient trans! I read somewhere that you can compute the efficiency of an automatic trans by dividing reverse gear and one of the forward gears (can't seem to remember which one). Anyone heard of this before, or know the formula?

 

the materials gm used for the 4 pinion are much softer than the 5 pinion.this can be verified with a metal snap or rockwell tester.the 5 pinion planets are tougher requiring the use of the new reaction tube to avoid stripping at the parts mating surface due to dissimilar metals.as of now we cut off the 4 pinion at 450hp and dont use them in any non lock up applications due to lubrication problems in overdrive when high planetary speeds are in effect thus overdriving,output is faster than input.if you want to see an overdrive transmission thatll hold 850 plus horsepower and that uses less power than a 2004r or 700r4,visit my homepage and click on gmaod hybrid overdrive transmission,truly a marvel in its own right.

 

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TKOPerformance


Everyone consider this. A 4L80E sucks up about 25% of an engine's flywheel power. I think only using 50-60HP makes the 700R4 look like a very efficient trans! I read somewhere that you can compute the efficiency of an automatic trans by dividing reverse gear and one of the forward gears (can't seem to remember which one). Anyone heard of this before, or know the formula?

I have heard of that,TKO. You have to divide the reverse gear ratio by the low gear ratio. This example shows:

TH350- 1.94x2.52(reverse ratio x first gear ratio)=0.77.
Or the reverse gear runs at 77% of the speed of First gear.

The faster the reverse gear runs, the more power goes out the window....I just happened to see this in Car Craft, right before you said that.....talk about weird heh?...Tom

 

Yup, that's where I saw it too. They've been doing that series on popular GM, Ford, and Chrysler automatics. They cover the basics, which models are worthwile for performance use, and how to upgrade them to soem extent. It's been a very informative series. If you're looking for good info on autos pick up those issues or check for the articles online.

 

Chris718, you mentioned that you tested the Raybestos Z-Pak. I am curious as to what you found with that 3-4 clutch pack compared to the red plates? Here in Houston I get my rebuild kits through Transtar Industries and they praise the Z-pak. I have looked into them but never tried it. Seems fairly expensive as well.

 

I need a trans and a new converter... and I am very close to buying one ...

http://www.team3rdgen.com/modules.ph...view_photo.php

I went in the 11s on street tires with the trans letting go (felt like i put it n neutral) at 5,000rpms in all gears at wot...had to get out of it all the way for the 1-2 and the 2-3 shift ... my car pulls hard to 7,000 when you ease into it

this was a kinda built 700R4 with a 3200 non lockup converter ..
I could get it to flash to around 4,200rpm

Tell me more about your 2.66 first gearset .. better idea.. I'll call

 

shift quality was not impressive at all.although the friction plates didnt burn up after being exposed to my heavy foot on the harlem river drive at 12 am behind the wheel of the 83 hurst olds w/ supercharger, the shift time from start to finish was noticeably longer than the alto red or the plain paper friction.the raybestos blue plates never made it into the 700r4 after repeated failures in my wifes 11 second grand national with the direct drum being fed with both the inner and outer areas of the direct clutch piston and a solid built 2004r.our final analysis as reported to frank slocum @raybestos was that there was excessive slip time between the held and driven members of the gearset when controlled by this type of friction with our calibration.9 3/4 frictions of the 061" thickness with 080"steels and .100"apply and pressure plates will outperform any other combination i have found.either plain paper or alto red kolene steels are not necessary imo in this pack