so, i put in a manual in place of my old auto trans.
everything is done, but for some reason, it seems like the rod from the slave cylinder to the clutch fork isnt pushing enough, because i turn the car on, and it wot go into any gear as if the clutch fork isnt engaging.

so, me and my buddy welded 2 of those rods together to make it longer, install it and it got into gear, but it didnt fully disengage so there was some lag getting it up to speed, we shortened it down just a bit, and now we're back to sqare one.

anyone have any ideas on what the problem is? i bought the t5 set up and it all worked apparently on the other camaro....so i dont get why it isnt working now.

any input or help would be appreciated

 

it may need to be bled

 

read the whole thing, i couldnt get the car somewhat working if i didnt bleed it

 

I hate to have to do this, because everybody else is going to groan (again....); but:

Which way did you put it together?



Needless to say, your description matches what happens when you do it one of these 2 ways.

 

yaaaaaaa, i think i did it the wrong way.
F**K!!! i get to have the fun of pulling it all apart again.

but thanks for the help, the pictures helped A LOT, much appreciated
i'll keep up to date if it works or not

 

so, we put the throw out bearing and i got the same problem.
idk if there is air still in the line or not, but it doesnt seem to push the rod far enoug as if it doesnt have enough pressure

 

The pivot ball (for the clutch fork) may need to be replaced with a longer one if the presure plate has been re-surfaced.

 

its a brand new pressure plate

 

Pivot ***** are cheap. You just need a longer one...

Plate be brand new, but also may be just a bit thinner than the one it replaced.

 

what is a pivot ball? would i have to take the trans off?
i dont want to sound like i an idiot, but idk what the pivot ball is

 

nevermind, i found out it was, but how would it affect the lack of engaging and disengaging?

 

(looking for an analogy)

It changes the fulcrum point similar to the way adjusting your rocker arm nuts affect the valves in your heads.
(Geez. I hope that helps)
It only needs to be *slightly* longer to affect things in a huge way so only get the next size up...

 

well, i looked at a pic i took, and the pivot ball doesnt look worn down.
plus, i dont know any place that'd have that.
and i talked to someone about it, and apparently i might have the wrong throw out bearing, because there are 4 different sizes for my car.
also, i heard im supposed to pump the clutch pedal slowly to bleed it

 

Dont feel bad when I converted my 5 speed I put the throwout bearing on wrong to and it did exactly what you described

 

the thing is, its in correctly now, and its still not working

 

It isn't worn down, but there are variances in parts that determine the need for differing lengths.

The dealer has longer pivot *****.

Pivot ***** are a normally replaced item if you have your clutch replace at a shop, or at the dealer. New ones just work better...

There are also aftermarket sites on-line that sell adjustable pivot ***** (This is the way I'd go)

Never heard of bleeding a clutch by pumping it...

 

Neither did I until about 10 years ago when a guy showed me first. Works fairly well actually. Pump it slowly and the bubbles come out.


Dubya, how much travel total does the fork sweep?

I'm not sure I agree 100%, or at all with the pivot ball theory. I've never ever ever replaced one, and ran numerous numerous clutch setups on a 20+ year old bell housing. I wonder if the input shaft on the T5 is shot. I've seen them stick to the pilot BUSHING almost immediately if the shaft is trashed.
I always check the shaft roundness, and use a timken pilot BEARING.

-- Joe

 

well, if the shaft was shot, wouldnt it hinder from me driving all together? because after i bump start it in 1st, i can shift into the other gears

 

Same would apply if it's a clutch problem. Though I feel the reason you can shift a moving vehicle between the other gears is the syncros.

-- Joe

 

Don't take my word for it, ask a pro. They always get replaced. Avoids combacks for weird noises, pops, creaks and general roughness upon depressing the clutch.

If a flywheel is re-surfaced, they put in longer ones to compensate. I had the same problem as the orfignal poster when I had my pressure plate re-surfaced in my old GTO. New (3/32" longer) pivot ball fixed it.

For the original poster:
Just read this.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2002/ic100237.htm

Note the parts about the pivot ***** being replaced.

 

Hrmm. I dunno. I've read in FSM's about putting shims in behind a flywheel if it has been resurfaced, but I can't buy the pivot ball thing. I've replaced them if they had FLAT spots but, not to fix an out of spec clutch.

Although I don't really do customer jobs anymore, I'm still half owner of the shop and my partner/cousin has probably done at least 200 clutches since we moved into this building in 2000, not one pivot ball, and not one customer complaint.

-- Joe

 

i appreciate all the help
i talked to my old autoshop teacher and he looked up the specs for how far the clutch fork is supposed to move a minimum of...14.5mm, mine is moving 14.75mm.
and i had a pic of the pivot ball inside the bellhousing, and there were no flat spots.
also, the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, and pilot bearing are brand new

although today i noticed while shifting gears while the car is off, it seems to need some effort putting into 3rd and 4th, and i will feel it pop into gear, it doesnt feel like it should do that

 

Then since we can exclude all of those variables, I can't help but feel its the inputshaft/pilot bushing combination. Try using a timken pilot bearing, and check the front of the input shaft for run out.

-- Joe

 

run out?
sorry, im still learing about cars somewhat

do you think it could be a bad trans?

 

also, where would i find an adjustable pivot ball?
i cant seem to find one for my car

i'll try the pivot ball theory, and check the input shaft for roundness and check the pilot bearing

 

Thats the first time I have seen the picture with the throw out bearing. Mine did not have that spring retainer. I have had no issues so far, but I am using a spec three clutch with a centerforce fly wheel.

My suggestion is to get a buddy undet the car while you push in the clutch, or vice versa. Make sure that for everybit of pedal movement there is something moving at the slave cylinder. If there isn't, bleed it. If there is, measure it. Is it enough?

 

me and 2 of my buddies already bled the clutch

 

yeah, the clutch fork is moving the correct length, no air in the lines.

the car is currently at AAMCO for their free diagnostic

i havent gotten the chance to check the input shaft because the apartment complex i live in, in socal threatened to kick us out if we didnt stop working on it.....bastards.

and i think the threading for the torque arm, on the trans is stripped, wont hold the bolt in....

so, it might take me a while to get updates to you guys because now i need to drive it to a friends house, and keep bump starting it at every red light

i was also thinking, maybe the throwout bearing is only engaging part of the springs on the pressure plate....just a thought

 

does anyone know where to find a website that'd have an adjustable pivot ball that would work for my car?

 

I think you're on the right track by questioning the throwout bearing. If it's the wrong one, you'll never get the clutch to adjust or operate correctly. I hate to tell you to pull the trans again, but maybe you ought to, then take the throwout to a parts store and compare it to a new one that's the correct part# for your application. Another thing that will definitely affect the proper amount of travel is having the wrong release fork. The hydraulic style release fork is almost perfectly straight. If whoever sold you the T5 setup accidentally gave you one of the older style forks that are used with the mechanical/adjustable linkage, this could also be your problem. The older forks have a visible curve to them, and they don't travel as far as the straighter, hydraulic ones. The parts store once sold me a 3 speed style throwout bearing for my 4 speed setup in my 69 Camaro years ago, and I had the same kinds of problems that you're experiencing. Never could get the clutch adjusted right because the 3 speed throwout was taller than the correct one. Check your fork and your throwout to make sure they're both correct. Most release forks have a part# stamped on them. If you can find the part#, you can make sure it's correct. It could also possibly be the V6 hydraulic fork, which is different from the V8 one, although they look almost identical. Some of them have "V8" or "V6" stamped in them from what I've seen. That's hit or miss, but the part# is almost always there somewhere.

 

I just recently purchased a new timken one. Pretty trick part. Polymer construction with a metal bearing face. maint-free (don't lube it). I can get the part # if he needs it, I think I still have the box on my roller car.

-- Joe

 

having same prob, did you get an oreilly or autozone clutch? I seen something else in there that may have been a spacer, going back to check and that could be my prob too.



I pulled the trans again, replaced the clutch fork because it had a broken (the sheetmetal support fingers) finger and wouldnt engage all the way. I looked up into the bellhousing when someone pressed on the clutch and the pressure plate seems to disengage, not sure what the prob is. Can you buy longer rods? I think maybe its not pressing it down fully. I am going to try and replace the slave, other than that, everything was good. I noticed in the package, there was a pilot bearing and then something that looked just like the pilot bearing but was much bigger around and wouldnt fit in the crank, think it was for a diff vehicle using the same clutch. Other than this, car wont go i nto gear while idling, have to kill it to put it in gear, after that it will go in gear while you are driving, but once you stop, you have to kill it to get it in reverse or whatever, but once you are moving will go into gear. Any help is appreciated. Thanks

 

pat hall-- well, im pretty damn sure there is a curve to the clutch fork

Joe-- timken what? pilot bearing or throwouw bearing? either way, the part number would help

mike-- i got mine from kragen, i had what looked like 2 pilot bearings, and im not sure if they are for different sized crank, i have no clue

 

I could either try to dig up a pic of the hydrualic style fork on here somewhere, or snap a pic of the one I got sitting in storage. To the naked eye, the hydraulic fork looks virtually straight, hardly no curvature to it whatsoever.

 

any help would be appreciated

but if they look virtually straight, whats the difference between the v6 fork and the v8?

 

maybe you have a mechanical T-5 clutch fork in it. I say in the end you will find it's clutch fork related of pilot bearing related or you used a needle pilot bearing and messed it up when installing the trans and now it's causing the the input shaft to bind ..... I don't believe it is your pivot ball mine is somewhat flat and my clutch releases fine.

 

V-8



V-6


----------
possibly your problem there is clearly a difference. if you had a v-6 fork in it then there is no way it would disengage the clutch completely.

 

do the mechanical clutch forks look like the hydraulic??

and i have the one for the v8, so, there goes that theory

needle pilot bearing? what does that look like? (sorry, im still learning the small odds and ends to this project)

the theory for the pivot ball is that possibly the aftermarket clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate might be thinner than the original

 

I used a autozone special on mine and haven't had a problem. A needle bearing pilot bearing goes into the crankshaft. it basically has long needle roller bearings. now if you had to force the transmission into place (using bolts to get it seated on the bellhousing) chances are good you messed this bearing up ... of course if it is the solid metal bushing that eliminates that. .... I've had my flywheel turned 2 times who knows if it's been turned by previous owner I bought it from and this hasn't been an issue in how my clutch releases .....

 

hmmmm
well, i have the solid metal pilot bearing, but when we initially put in the trans, we have to bolt up the trans to the bellhousing for it to get in all the way...maybe the pilot bearing is a little too small?

but we took it off to fix the throwout bearing being in the wrong spot, it went in fine after that, but i suppose there is the pissibility of the pilot being messed up

but i still dont fully understand why that would hinder me from shifting, because it seems as if the clutch fork just isnt engaging

 

stepup or stepdown flywheel possibly? as many times as you have pressed the clutch even if it did have air in it it would have bled itself anyways.

check the trans input shaft to verify the clutch disc slides freely on it. after I had my T-5 rebuilt I noticed my clutch movement was much better. my splines were pretty bad.

try a new slave cylinder maybe yours is internally leaking and this is why it will not work properly.
----------
I think in this case pictures of everything would be a great asset

 

stepup or stepdown?

well, its at a friends shop right now, and he knows more about cars than my buddy who has been helping me on this project

the slave cylinder is brand new, its even metal, not like the original plastic

 

Here's pic of the most common Chevy mechanical release fork. Notice how much curve there is compared to the pics Jproz posted? I looked up the part #'s for the hydraulic forks in my GM F-body parts manual. V8-#14075718; V6-#14036046. With the pics and the part #'s, you should be able to positively eliminate the fork as being one of the possible causes of your problem.

 

mine doesnt bend anywhere near that much, so i suppose i have the fork for the v8

it could possibly be the pilot bearing, thats what i've been being told

 

maybe i did this part wrong

on the clutch disk, the part that protrudes outward...
does that face the trans or the flywheel?

 

The little, cone-shaped, hub points toward the flywheel. The part that has more of a protrusion points toward the pressure plate. In other words, the side that points toward the flywheel is perfectly flat except for the little cone in the very middle. As long as this post is, it'll be pretty damn unreal if that ends up being the whole problem.

 

The hub with the springs point toward the bell housing, You cannot seat the disc in backwards, the hub would be against the flywheel, the bolts for the pressure plate probably would never start (be long enough).




My service manual says a v6 fork won't engage the v8 bell either, so I agree with this guy. That could be part of the problem.


Dubya, where are you located?

-- Joe

 

To go way back to the beginning, look at the pilot bearing again. I nerfed one once (it was the solid bushing and not the bearing) and here's what happenned:

All of the driving conditions that Dubya described above happenned to me. I put the car with a guy behind the wheel on the lift. We started it up. While looking inside the bellhousing (my old Buick had a removable inspection cover) we noticed that the input shaft was still turning when the clutch was fully depressed. The problem was that the input shaft was literally "stuck" inside the pilot bushing. It wouldn't allow the input shaft to stop spinning while the engine was running. Even with the clutch down, when you started the car it took off driving!

Anyway, we replaced the bushing with a roller bearing in the back of the crank and we never had that problem again!

 

k, i put the clutch in correctly then
im getting my car back from my buddies shop here in an hour and disassembling it and seeing what the problem might be

im gunna take a look at the pressure plate while a friend depresses the clutch to make sure the TOB is engaging the pressure plate 100%

then im gunna take a look at the pilot bearing

anesthes- i live is southern california

 

i hate to bring this thread up again
but i just put a pilot bearing in the car, and the stock (used) clutch and pressure plate and it kinda gets into gear, just very tough

when the clutch pedal it fully depressed, the tires start moving while trying to get it into 1st, and when i try reverse, it makes a gnarly grinding noise
maybe still something in the clutch assy?
maybe a faulty master cylinder for the clutch assy?