Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I can't figure out how to get the carrier in with those spacers on each side. I can take them out, put the carrier in, but then the spacers wont go back in no matter what I do. Can anyone help me get them both in? I can get one in, but then there is no way I can get another one in. Anyone have any tricks?

Uncle Skeletor

iTrader: (5)

I imagine you've already tried a hammer...

Not likely to work, but maybe try throwing the parts in the deep freezer overnite. Make them contract and maybe then it will go in.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I think I will try and see if I can tighten the carrier anymore. Maybe it isn't all the way tightened so it is a little bit too big. Any other idea though. I don't have a deep freezer.

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

You need a spreader. We used to use them on Dana 60`s. Look to the outside edge of the cover plate by the axle tubes and see if there is about a 3/4" deep by 3/4" wide hole. There are 2 male fittings on the spreader that fit in the holes in the rear-end and it works like a coil spring compressor except you`re spreading the case. Hope that helps. Kragen or other auto parts may have the spreaders.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Is that what I need? Haha, I hope so. Because I was getting pretty pissed that it wouldn't fit.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

So is this what everyone else used?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

You don't have to have like an industrial deep freezer or anything like that, just your freezer in your kitchen. Trust me, this method really works good! Those case spreaders are damn hard to find anywhere. I was rebuilding a Dana 60 in my boss's van, and I couldn't get the carrier back in with the shims. All the books said to either buy a case spreader or fabricate one. Btw, that's what the big holes on each side of the center opening of the rearend housing are for. The pegs of the case spreader tool go in them. Anyways, after putting the carrier in the freezer for about an hour, I went to put it back in the housing, and it practically dropped back in with all the shims. It's really amazing how well the hot/cold method works. I'm in the process of rebuilding my 12 bolt right now with new gears and a new Eaton posi. The ring gear stopped on the carrier flange with over 1/4" left before it would seat. I left the carrier out in the cold garage, and put the ring gear in the oven at 170 degrees for about a 1/2 hour. When I took it back out to put it on the carrier again, it dropped right on perfectly flush. I was even able to spin it around to line up the bolt holes for the ring gear. Once it cooled, it was completely tight again. If it's still a bit tight after freezing it, just use a hammer and a brass drift to carefully tap the shims back in place.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

So i need to put the whole carrier in the freezer?

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Where did everyone get a case spreader? Do you think Autozone will have one? Maybe Pep Boys, Riebies...ETC?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

No, you will almost never find a case spreader. Thing of the past or something.

I didn't use the temperature method, but that's a good shot. It worked for installing all the bearings on the pinion and carrier so...

I used a carrier shim installer. Kent moore makes it. It's a glorified piece of 1/8" steel. You could probably make one with an angle grinder, some 1/8" plate and a hole saw. Or pay $40 like me and buy it, then find out how friggen simple it was

Do a search, I posted asking how, and others have too. "carrier shim install" is what my thread was called.
My shim installer worked pretty good though.

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

I just checked my `88 Camaro manual and their is no mention of using a spreader on a BW rear end. Sonix is right, I`m thinking `60`s Mopars.

AlkyIROC

The bearing shims are tight because there needs to be preload on the bearings when they're installed. The best way to get them back in is with some sort of case spreader. I've never used one myself. A Ford 9" uses adjustable rings in the bearing caps. The case only needs to be spread a few thousands of an inch. Shrinking the whole carrier assemble you usually work. Throw the carrier, bearings, spacers all in the freezer for at least 24 hours. When you're ready to install them, use gloves to prevent your hands from warming up the metal too quickly and install the carrier assembly quickly before it gets a chance to warm up.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Trust me, the freezer method usually works pretty damn good. Yeah, I've seen the Kent-Moore tool that Sonix bought. It's basically u-shaped, to fit the contour of the shim, with a round shank extending from it that you use the hammer on. After freezing the carrier and effectively shrinking it down some, I've always been able to tap the shims in place just using a straight, roughly 7/16" thick brass drift and a small hammer. As far as a case spreader goes, I'm not sure if the 9 bolts even have the holes in each side to be able to use one, or the 7.5" 10 bolt rears for that matter. My 69 12 bolt has them though. It'd be a piece of cake to fab one up though if you had access to a welder, some box steel tubing, a couple of steel pegs of the correct size, and a couple of threaded rods. Seriously though, probably the only place you'd ever come across a case spreader would be some shop that specializes in rebuilding rear axles, especially Dana models. I usually put the carrier in with both bearing races on, and all the shims on one side of it, then you can take a large, flat screwdriver and use it to pry the other race up tight against the bearing cone, then just get the shim pushed in enough to stay in place. Once you get to that point, keep hold of the carrier with your elbow, knee, or whatever, then grab the hammer and drift (make sure to have them lying close by) and tap the shim the rest of the way in until it's seated.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Okay, I will try that, Do I have both of the spacers in them tap them in, or do I do it one at a time?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

I usually do it one side at a time. Like I said above, put the carrier in with both bearing races on, and the spacer on one side, then use the screwdriver to pry the other race over tight against the bearing cone and sorta shove the other spacer in or use the hammer and tap it a bit to get it started. The first spacer I put in is the one on the ring gear side (left side), since there's not as much room to work on that side.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Does it matter which spacer goes on each side? Or are they the same size?

AlkyIROC

You'll have to measure them. The spacer thickness also determines side to side positioning of the ring gear. There's a good possibility that after you go through all the trouble to get the carrier back in, the ring and pinion wear pattern will need to be adjusted.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I think I am going to force the spacers in with a rubber mallet. I dont have a freezer close to my car. I am working on it at my old house that is empty. So the freezer method wont work.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Are these stock shims? The thick cast iron ones? You will break them if you do that. They'll crack in half.
You were supposed to measure them when you took them out, so you knew which one went on which side.
Did you change anything? Gears, carrier, etc?

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

nope, didn't change anything. I shimmed my posi though. So I added shims to the inside. It shouldn't make a difference though.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Oh man, I'm done with this thread now. If you got your spacers mixed up, you're on your own. Do you even know which side to put each bearing cap back on? Tearing a rear apart is no different than tearing a motor down. You MUST keep everything in the right order, just like the connecting rods, main bearing caps, etc. in a motor. On the bright side though, at least there's only two possibilities here. Either the spacers will be in the right spot or backwards. To get it back together right, without having to worry if it's right, you really need a dial indicator and a magnetic base. Then you can try the shims both ways and check the backlash reading on the ring gear. Ideally it should be between .006"-.012". Honestly, that's really what you need to do to get it right. If the difference in thickness between the two shims is pretty significant, you might even be able to tell just by feel which way is correct by how much slack there is between the ring/pinion when you rock the ring gear back and forth while holding the pinion still. For future reference, whenever I remove a carrier from a rear, I always lay the shims and bearing caps on a clean shop rag underneath the axle housing in the right order. That way, there's no risk of getting them in the wrong place when you put it back together. Btw, the cast iron shims are somewhat fragile, but they're usually fine being tapped back in using a brass drift without hammering them to death. One last tip, make sure to torque the bearing cap bolts evenly to 55-60 ft. lbs. when you do your final assembly.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Okay. I am pretty sure the bigger one came off the drivers side.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

This is pretty much a lost cause. One of the side spacers broke. Anyone know where I can get another set? I will take apart the carrier again and remeasure for shims I guess. I may end up getting a whole rear end and just sell the parts off of this one. I dont know. Any Idea's?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Drop by a driveline shop, or buy from summit. Carrier shims is what you need. $60 or so for a pack.
Just stick in ~.25" on each side, then measure the backlash and gear pattern. Adjust as needed.
The shims may come with info, or do a search on this forum on how to do this.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

.25" seems a little too much. And by carrier shims, you mean the ones the go on the outside of the carrier bearing correct? Also $60 for 2 seems really pricey. I would rather buy 2 washers the same size and mill them myself to get the inside edge.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Well, you can measure yours and check. Mine were ~.248" or something.

Yes outside of the bearings. You buy a shim pack, comes with about 20 little ones. You stack big, medium and super thin until you get the right size.
Good luck getting the right size washers though.... You need them to be hardened I imagine, and you'd be machining them a lot. Then getting new ones when you find out you need to make them thicker.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

That is Stupid. I just paid $60 for the carrier shims, now $60 for more shims for the outside, and 2 hours of milling the posi cones? Damn, I could have bought a good used complete rear for $200. I think I will try and cut my losses and see the the whole rear is still available. If it is, I will be selling all the parts to my carrier, axles, brakes, everything.

If it isn't available, I guess I am going to do what I have to do. How did everyone measure to shim the carrier? I didn't get it. I just felt it and got rid of all the play while the spider gears when seated fully.
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If anything, I would need smaller ones. I can't even get 1 spacer in, let alone 2. haha...I pretty much give up. Nothing is working. Every time I got to work on my car, a straight forward task ends up costing me a lot of money and about 10x the amount of time it should. Just like my oil pan from hell which took 2 weeks to replace completely.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Hell, it doesn't cost $60 for shims. Just get these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CARRI...3329QQtcZphoto I bought that same set, and it comes with enough shims to achieve just about any thickness you'll need for $20, shipping included. Don't let the whole situation get over your head. All you need to do to fix your shim problem is get a set of digital calipers and measure the shim you broke, then just stack up the right shims from the new set until they measure up to the same thickness as the broken one. Since you sounded like you're pretty sure you remember which side each one went in originally, just put it back together once you get the shim problem taken care of. Since that shim set fits the GM 7.5" and 8.5" 10 bolts, it's probably about a 99 percent chance they'll work in your 9 bolt as well. You can buy a cheap set of digital calipers from Harbor Freight (probably less than $20). Measuring and replacing the broken shim is honestly the only measurement you'll need to do as long as you remember which side each shim goes back in. A couple of questions. Was the carrier pretty easy to pull out when you first removed it? If it was, I can't imagine it being that hard to put back in. Are you sure you put the two halves of the carrier case back together right? Even if you have to take the carrier home and stick it in your freezer there, you ought to try it. Then throw it in a plastic bag, stick in a cooler with ice in it, and take it straight back to the car and put it in. If the carrier is put back together correctly, and you shrink it down using the cold, I can't see any possible way it wouldn't be able to go back in, especially considering it's still got used bearings on it. The preload is really tight on the bearings when everything is put together new, but it loosens up quite a bit after thousands of miles, and the bearings/races wear in. As a last ditch effort, a shop should only charge an hour or less in labor to shim and set the backlash on the carrier for you. It's quick and easy to do on an existing setup compared to setting up a whole rear. If I were local, I'd be glad to give you hand fixing it for a couple of brews.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Thanks...I guess I will take apart the carrier and double check. Then I will go to a differential shop and try to get something I can use as a side spacer.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

It was hard to get it out also. I needed to use a pry bar and it took about 5 minutes. I never thought it would be that hard to put back in. I will double check my shimming today though.

327_TPI_77_Maro

iTrader: (8)

The problem with the new aftermarket shims is that you are basically setting the rear up all over again now that you lost your stock reference point. If you didn't measure backlash with a dial indicator back before you took the rear apart, you are virtually guaranteed that your gears are going to howl when you put them back together.

jtrescot

I disagree. As long as he can match up the thickness of the original, and provided that they are on the correct sides, all should be fine (or at least as good as it was before it was disassembled.)

327_TPI_77_Maro

iTrader: (8)

The problem is that w/ the aftermarket shims, you can only get so much resolution. Also because of tolerance stackup, if you put a bunch of 10 thou shims, 100 thou shims, etc together and measure the thickness of the group of shims, it will usually be slightly thicker than you thought it would be. If he doesn't have backlash as a reference #, trying to get stacking shims to be exactly the same thickness as the original shim is going to have some error involved. No guarantees on the result. If a used R&P does not end up dead nuts on the exact same depth and backlash it is very easy for it to make noise.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Are the bearing cups the same size? I think I will try and buy a rear. If not, I guess I will have to deal with this mess.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Well yea, after he puts in his new stack of shims he will hook up his dial gauge and verify his backlash.
Dial gauge and stand runs $30 from mcmaster carr, or your favorite local retailer.
Bearing cups? You mean the caps? They are pretty close. I think mine had #70 stamped on the DS, and #71 on the PS though, and I damn well made sure it went back the same way!
I'd probably just chance it and run it. No harm in putting it back together wrong if you have no other choice.

327_TPI_77_Maro

iTrader: (8)

The factory specs are a range, and if you just guess and set lash in the middle of the range, and you were running it looser or tighter than that for 50k miles, it may make noise even though the lash is "in spec". Been there and done that personally. A couple thou difference in backlash made a big difference in noise. Just a forewarning. If you measure the lash before you start taking things apart it is a whole different story.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Okay, so I bought the spacers. I will measure with a micrometer and get them to be the same size. I am assuming it will be harder know because I will have to keep them all in line. I guess it is worth a shot. I am going to double check my shimming tomorrow. I will take off the ring gear and see if the carrier is closed all they way. If not, I will remeasure.