I have the pedals from a 95 TA that came with the T56 I bought. Should I use them or the ones in my car 92 RS that came with a 5 speed?

Another question - I have the master and slave from the 95 TA, but I am unsure of the condition. What are my options? I have heard there are issues with the hydraulic setups so if I need to upgrade, I may do it now.

 

From what I read up on, either pedal set will work but I would do the clutch rod mod and make it adjustable to get the throw right. Where the pivot point is on the pedals is different between the years, thats why. AFIK, a new set of hydros is around 170 or so it would be a good investment to get them. Just make sure they are bled out good either way you choose.

 

If you do not mind the extra work I would consider putting the 4th gen pedals in. The clutch master rod fits these properly. For the third gen pedals it needs a minor modification to properly hook up. The linkage points are a little different and will rpobably give a little change in pedal and clutch engagement.

 

Ok, so the 4th gen pedals sound like the way to go, but there may be a complication. I have a manual brake MC adapter and if I have to widen any holes, I would have to modify the adapter and I do not want to do that.

 

The linkage points are not even that different in relation to how far it is from the pivot point. It's easier to thread the master for an adjustable clevis than it is to tear those damned pedals out (and the 4th gens need to be modded, gas pedal removed..some holes modified)

 

Ok, I feel like a bit of a noob now. I found the right search and there is plenty of info to help me decide what to do. Thanks for helping so far.

I think I want to stay with the third gen pedals and modify the throw.

 

I have a FULL cage and, well, it just sucks to work under the dash! I am going to try and modify my pedals as well. I can't remember exactly what needed to be done at the moment though!

 

All you need is to cut the rod on a 4th gen master, thread it and put a clevis on it. the clevis may need to be thinned down because the little pin is rather short. a rod end designed for 4th gen will not work. The size is right but the pin too short.

 

Ok, I can find a clevis like you show there or do what Tony89GTA did here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...tment-t56.html

Both accomplish the same thing right? Just making sure.

Going this route doesn't solve the leverage issue some people talk about, right? That seems like a minor issue to me. I am thinking the pedal pressure difference because of the pivot difference can't be too much.

 

Based on other threads I have read the pedal pressure is not much different. I would just use the third gen pedals and do the other mods to make it the way you need based on your current setup. It is much easier to adapt the master push rod to the 3rd gen pedals and easy still to make it adjustable.

Those are excellent pics from Twin_Turbo..

 

For what it's worth I'm using bone stock thirdgen pedals and bone stock 4th gen hydraulics with my T56 in my GTA. I drive the car 60miles per day and I have no issues. The clutch engagement is closer to the end of the pedal travel than normal, but once you're used to it there is no issue.

 

What about over engaging the clutch,i.e., clutch fork hitting pressure plate?

 

Thats a pretty extreme manifestation of it... you probably saw my thread/experiences on that. I wouldnt worry bout that too much, pretty rare. If that happens you can always make the master adjustable or go to a larger diameter slave cylinder. Im actually using a T5 slave cylinder now, much softer pedal and easier to modulate slip zone within the pedal travel. The T5 slave cylinder swap was way easier than removing the master cylinder hydraulics to make them adjustable. Its not the perfect method for everyone but it worked great for me.

 

Ok, thanks for the info. That is a perfect segway into something else I need to figure out. I have heard bleeding this setup is a PITA, so some buy the complete hydraulics pre bled, but if I start swapping slave cylinders I will have to bleed the system. I have bled clutches before so I am not too worried as long as there are no gotchas. I am going to buy new hydraulics anyways because the condition of the ones I have is unknown so what is the most ideal setup?

 

So what about running 3rd gen pedals, the stock T5 master with a custom or modified line? Anyone?
After much digging the T5 master appears to be 3/4" bore, The T56 master is 7/8" bore. Now for the slaves there is a marginal difference. The T56 slave appears to be 30.6mm or 1.2" and the T5 slave is 1".
I wouldn't think that .2" more diameter in the slave wouldn't cause much of an issue. Am I correct in thinking that the smaller diameter master would cause the pedal to release the clutch lower in the travel also?

 

Good points anti-venom. I have a t56 waiting so I'd like to know as well!

 

FYI to anyone reading - I decided to go with 4th gen hydraulics and modify the master push rod to make it adjustable. I found a good deal on a known good and working hyrdaulic setup.

 

Do the math, calculate how much more volume a slightly larger cilinder displaces! Now you arae compromising on both ends. For the pedal to be nice and low you need 4th gen hydraulics or something like a tick master and 4th gen slave

 

But one key variable is missing, the piston's stroke travel. The T5's diameter is smaller however if it has a longer travel it may displace the same volume of fluid. The location of the pin on the pedal could be detrimental here.

 

But it is known that the location is very nearly the same so the cylinder piston travel is going to be almost the same. Otherwise the location for the clutch master cylinder brackets on the pedals would be different between the T5 and T56. The difference between the two is 36 %. Would need a difference in pedal travel the same percentage.

 

This is making me wonder if the t5 pedals/master would work with a t56 slave

 

What is the actual measured difference in the pin's distance from the pivot point? Should be easy to figure out the percentage difference in throw travel between the two pedal sets. We already know the T5 slave will also work if your using a custom line. So using both the T5 master and slave is a possibility. Assuming for simplicity 90 degree's of pedal travel, moving the pin only .5" away from the pivot would effectively increase the travel .75" which correct me if i'm wrong would be a 25 percent increase in throw.

 

I have a line I made out of earls stainless steel line and ends. It is much longer and gave the clutch a much better feel.


I just want to make sure it will(like you said) give me enough pedal! Isn't the LT1 pull and the t5 is push style though?

 

Stroke is about the same. Fluid displacement is not. LT is pull, tbat's why the slave points forward and the T5 back. Must use LT slave, T5 won't work if you have a complete LT setup. It will if you have a retrofit T56 that bolts to T5 bell and uses T5 clutch

 

T56 slave.


T5 slave.


From my understanding the T5 slave will bolt right to the T56 the only difference is that because the T5 slave mounts in reverse that the line that comes with it is too short. Which is why you would need a longer custom line to use one. Maybe someone who has used one can chime in here and confirm this? I have seen posts of T5 slaves being used on T56's and from that we know they will bolt up and work.

If the pins in the pedals are at different distances from the fulcrum point then the travel cannot physicaly be the same. The closer you move the pin to the fulcrum the less the travel would be. Otherwise also you wouldn't have people claiming a noticeable difference between the two pedal sets as far as engagement height and pedal effort using the same master.

With a search I have found some people complaining of too much travel using the 3rd gen pedals and 7/8"s 4th gen hydraulics due to this. This would make sense since the third gen peg is further from the fulcrum than the 4th gen pedals and would increase the travel displacing more fluid.

So essentialy, with the larger 7/8th's inch T56 master, The rod would be moved less using the 4th gen pedals. I would assume this is to reduce pedal effort seeing as this would provide more mechanical advantage. However with the diameter of the master being larger, this would push more fluid per the smaller travel thus compensating.

The question again, is how far the difference in distance is from the fulcrum beween both pedal sets? Only then will we know by being able to determine the exact difference in % of travel (within reasonable margin) the difference in how much fluid is being moved between the T5/3rd gen and T56/4th gen setups.

The larger diameter slave would again provide more hydraulic advantage on the opposite end. So my theory here is that the entire change GM made in throw and diameters here isn't to change how far the slave rod moves, But just to refine and reduce the overall pedal effort.

 

So now that I'm off work and can do some math...

The ratio (master 3/4":slave 1") provided from the T5 hydraulics is .75:1.
The ratio (master 7/8:slave 1.2")provided from the T56 hydraulics is .875:1.2
The ratio (master 3/4: slave 1.2) using t5/t56 combo hydraulics is .625:1

To get equivelent ratio's .75:1 T5 vs .73:1 T56

So the difference there is a very negligable .02 difference in master/slave ratio between the two setups. So you can see the difference in master:slave when using matching t5/t5 or t56/t56 components is very negligable and would only take a very small change in travel or pin distance to make up the difference.

So from my previous post, if moving the pin .5" lower increases the stroke 25%. We're looking for only 2%. Now if ypur using a T5 master with an LT1 slave then it would seem that you would be reducing the travel at the slave by 14.4%

 

I thought I had found that the T5 and T56 master cylinders were the same? I dont remember, though.

Im using a T56 master and hydraulic line, and using an... 88 Cavalier slave cylinder. 1.25 inch diameter if I remember right.

In my particular case, and I do firmly believe that everyone drills these holes in the firewalls at different spots and gets slightly different results, and everyone uses different specific parts, so it all just depends on a lot of factors. But I'm using thirdgen pedals, fourth gen master, fouth gen line, and an 88 Cavalier slave cylinder. The T5 is right in the middle between the cavalier slave and the T56 slave. And remember, the T56 slave does not have a bleeder screw, but the T5 and Cavalier slave cylinders DO. At least the one I bought.

But in my case, all the useful pedal travel was in the first inch of travel, if not less than that. After I swapped to my new clutch I was getting a banging noise and found it was from the clutch fork hitting the pressure plate because it was disengaging SO far.Checked my old clutch taht came out and found the SAME marks on the pressure plate. It had clearanced itself over time and somehow I hadnt noticed. Weird. Anyway with the Cavalier 1.25 inch slave cylinder, I think I did the math and found I was getting about half the slave pushrod travel that I would have been getting with the T56 slave, and this meant no more pressure plate interference with the clutch fork.

The other major concern is that you get enough clutch disengagement to not ruin your synchros. I did a bunch of experiments with the car in the air and several methods just to be sure I was getting full disengagement and although it was close, it was definitely completely disengaging. I think over the next few weeks of driving it, the system managed to further bleed itself, because the engagement point is much closer to the top of the pedal now than it was then, so Im no longer worried about synchros at all. Nowhere near as bad as it was with the T56 hydraulics, though. And the pedal is MUCH softer and easier to modulate than before. It was a win-win situation for me. I think you can easily get the same results from making the master cylinder adjustable, but the slave cylinder swap was much, much easier and didnt require any taps or dies. I had to slightly drill out the Cavalier slave's female hydraulic "socket"?, but it's just plastic. Took 2 seconds with a drill and its perfect. Just get a drill bit to match the T56 slave cylinder, and apply it to the cavalier or T5 slave to make sure its the same size. No need to go rambo on it, very easy, just delicately spin it in and out real quick and you're good to go.

Still WAY easier, IMO, than removing and modifying the master cylinder. Now if you have everything on your workbench, what's easier changes completely. Mine was already installed in the car.

If I had the money I'd get that adjustable Tick master cylinder, but the slave cylinder was something like $27... just a really easy, cheap job to keep me from mangling my clutch fork and pressure plate, and it ended up giving me a lot of other benefits too.

Like I said, not the best solution for everyone, but it worked great for me. No regrets.

 

You can not properly compare those ratios like that because it uses a small difference in daimeter to compare, when in effect you need to look at surface area as a factor for fluid displacement. , do you have any idea how much more surface area a circle of 7/8 has over one w/ a diam. of 3/4? Roughly 35%! On the slave side it's even worse, a 44% area difference. If you use the same stroke, and they are about the same...the pivot on the pedal is roughly the same distance from the fulcrum and the throw on the slave would be similar since you are wanting to depress the same pressure plate....
So you are using a 35% smaller master to drive a 45% larger slave. Sure, sounds like something that would work...almost the same.

 

My point however is to use the full T5 hydraulics. If your increasing the stroke your also increasing the volume of fluid moved. The ratio between the diameter of the masters should be a direct correlation to the volume of fluid pushed from the cylinders. Your method of surface area would provide the difference in hydraulic advantage as it indicates the surface area the fluid acts against but not the ratio of fluid displacement. Pi times R^2 times length=volume.

But yes I completely agree with you that mixing the T5 master and the T56 slave as I posted would reduce the slave movement by 14.4%.

We're not concerned about pedal effort but rather the distance the slave rod is able to move.

Your also completely ignoring factoring the factory ratio difference between the master and slave.which is already 31%. The advantage of having a lighter pedal comes from this varience. If the master and slave where of equal size the you would get a 1:1 ratio or the equivelant of a manual clutch.

 

Infernal are you using the 3rd gen pedals I'm assuming? Just want to confirm that the pedals extra travel caused your interference issue when using the larger 4th gen master. Great info btw. Thanks for sharing.

To summarize again, My intention was to discuss using 3rd gen pedals and hydraulics and verify that there wouldn't be any issues with the T56 with a solid mathmatical and engineered approach rather than "That looks close enough".

I have seen post after post of guessing and eyeballing this crap and the owner complaining of interference issues, engagment height problems and crappy shadetree fabrications. There's also the myth that T5 hydraulics when propely matched are insufficient to operate the T56 clutch. But when looking at everything in detail it appears it should work fine when all matched correctly with 3rd gen pedals. Your just going to have a stiffdr feeling pedal.

The standard is to use all 4th gen stuff and there's nothing wrong with that. Everything is engineered and matched to work together. But this has become the standard just because of lack of understanding coupled with hoards of "just get 4th gen pedals" replies everytime the question is asked.

 

I apologize in advance for busting your *****. To the uninformed, it's going to be easy to walk into this thread and think the 4th gens have a 7/8" slave.

The Tick unit is 7/8" except for a limited run of 13/16" that I don't think they regularly offer.
McLeod is 13/16"
GM from 84 to 2002 are 3/4"

Again sorry. Good discussion.

 

I pulled the diameters straight off of Rock Auto's listing for 3rd gen and LT1 4th gen parts lists. And somewhere else in a google seach confirmed the same. I couldn't find the info anywhere else. Please share where your info came from for the stock components?

If anyone can confirm the sizes it would be awesome. I know someone has some junk factory stuff they could measure for us.

 

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=7114.0

 

The problem with using 3rd gen stuff is the hydraulic line. The T56 slave requires a MUCH longer line. You'll have to do something custom there probably.

And yes, Im using 3rd gen pedals. The clutch would completely disengage within the first inch of travel and I had a very stiff pedal. After I put my new clutch in there I was getting knocking noises with the clutch all the way in. Found the pressure plate was scratched all the way around its circumference because the clutch fork would actually be at such an extreme angle that it would hit the MOVING pressure plate.

As you may or may not know, all LT1 T56 pressure plates are the same. Ive got 3 in the corner in the garage and the stampings and numberings on them are identical. Identical construction, and that's amongst a Competition Clutches Stage 2 clutch, a Spec Stage 3 6-puck clutch, and a parts store replacement clutch. All have identical pressure plates, so there shouldnt be much difference between them. Thinking I must have just gotten a slightly thicker pressure plate, I checked my parts store PP that served me well for a couple of years and had just pulled out, and was shocked to find this on it.



Exact same wear pattern from the clutch fork as was on my new setup. It was much more obvious on my new pressure plate as it was painted black with a nice ugly shiny metal streak around it where you see the worn spots on that one. Guess as I was just learning how to drive a manual when I put this in that I wasnt as diligent at putting the pedal all the way to the floor all the time. Not that it mattered, it was so far beyond reasonably disengaged the synchros didnt have anything to be worried about. I still find it strange that EVERYONE complains about the high engagement point, but no one seems to have it manifest itself quite this severely. Probably just a perfect storm of tolerance stack and installation variances.

But anyway, I would wholeheartedly suggest at least trying to make the T5 stuff work if you can get a line shop to make you a long enough hydraulic line. I'd love to see how that works and I think it'd be just fine. I prefer 3rd gen pedals because you dont have to saw anything off of them and there's the extra bracing to reinforce the firewall.

 

Ok, I'm a little confused lol. I've had a T56 waiting to get time to swap it into my 3rd gen now for almost a full year. I think I'm finally going to get time to get to work on it next month. I've got a cavalier slave cylinder sitting on my shelf that I had planned to use with my T5 master cylinder and 3rd gen pedals because I read in another thread on here that worked without any modifications, just made the clutch pedal feel a light.

However here, people are talking about using T5 slaves, and about the hydraulic line lengths and such. Is the hydraulic line from my T5 master not going to be long enough even with the cavalier slave? Also, I thought the T5 slave simply wouldn't work on a T56 due to clutch engagement designs (push vs pull). But in this thread, one person said something about that, and then it seems to get dismissed as people continue to talk about ways to use a T5 slave.

If I'm going to have to get a t56 master to get a hydraulic line long enough, I may as well get a t56 slave as well and just do the modification to the master rod to make it adjustable. I was only going to use the cavalier slave because I read it was basically a direct bolt in that worked.

My main complaint with the full 4th gen set up is the high clutch engagement point. I test drove the donor car that had the T56 in it and while I could get used to it, I really didn't like the engagement point compared to my t5 setup. It felt like all the clutch work was done in the first one or two inches of travel.

Also though, if I can get away with using my T5 master and slave both somehow, that would be nice because both of them were replaced less than a year ago. Master due to a leak, and just went ahead and replaced the slave while replacing the master for completeness.

 

Definitely, if you dont have a good solution to extend the hydraulic line an extra 6-10 inches, I'd buy a 4th gen hydraulic setup and modify the master cylinder rod. Maybe check into Tick hydraulics? They make an adjustable master for the T56. Maybe they come with a hydro line? The GM T56 hydro setup was still crazy expensive, like $175 I think whe nI got mine. So at least consider getting a fancy pants aftermarket one.

The reason I didnt just modify my master cylinder rod is because it was in the car. It's a pain in the butt to remove it and modify it and reinstall it by yourself. Way easier to just throw the cavalier slave on it in my case, but if you've got everything on your work bench do which ever is cheaper/easier for you.

1. Ive never driven a 4th gen T56 car... do they suffer from the same high engagement point issues we complain about? Thats pretty interesting... Or is the donor car a third gen? If that was a 4th gen that's pretty enlightening.

2. Just a matter of extending/replacing the hydraulic line. I've never done anything like that but surely there has to be some kind of solution for that that costs less than $200 to your door, right? Not sure if it's the perfect solution, kind of uncharted territory, but I think it'd be worth trying just so you and the rest of us would know for sure.

I just dont see how the stock T5 stuff would be long enough. the T56 slave points the opposite direction, so the line goes all the way past the bell housing towards the back of the car.

 

The donor car was another 3rd gen with 4th gen pedals. But I'm not sure why it would be different if it was a complete 4th gen set up just in a 3rd gen from a 4th gen? Unless the way the pedals mount angle them differently or something?

I don't know, when I get around to do my swap (like I said I hope to get to it next month, it's the first month where I have a few weekends open in a row and might have time), I might try a couple of different things, but it'll depend on costs. I thought I had everything I needed to do the swap already and wouldn't really need to incur any extra costs to do it. If I've got to buy a new master and stuff now then I might have to put it off again. Wasn't really planning to have to spend 200+ dollars on anything.

I'm assuming this is the tick hydraulic you were talking about:
http://www.tickperformance.com/tick-...or-lt1-f-body/

That thing is mighty expensive at 325 dollars lol. And from the picture that line on it looks really short. I'm no expert on line lengths and stuff so maybe it's supposed to look like that, but I honestly don't see how that line is supposed to even make it down the slave cylinder as short as it looks.

Looks like a 4th Gen Master Cylinder is only 70 dollars:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...aster+cylinder
However that specifically says in the description uses existing lines. So perhaps that line coming off the master cylinder is supposed to tie into another existing line? Like I said I'm no expert on this stuff lol haven't done any work with the hydraulics myself yet. When the ones in mine were replaced I was in a time crunch and paid someone else to do it.

 

You can get the adapter fittings and AN line for around 50 bucks. I believe it's Russel who makes the fittings. They are a royal ***** to bleed the air out. But yes the T5 line will be to short and is the only reason nobody uses T5 stuff.

 

Here is the easy way to make a stainless steel line for your 3rd gen setup. I've been using it for a while and works GREAT!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-640281/


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-656080/


Order those two things and all you have to do is barely smooth out the ends of the fittings so that they slide all the way in your master and slave and you are good to go. We just took a small dremel and smoothed them out until they were without the lips at the end and pushed them in. The stock roll pins will work as well!

Bled just as easy as stock.

I'm following this thread! Giving me some hope when I do my t56!

 

Are you talking about smoothing out the ilp behind the o-ring thing? If you do that, what actually holds them into the master / slave cylinder? Granted I have not looked at the lines on these things, but I would assume those fittings are made for something that is going to lock in behind that lip to hold it into place.

 

From dealing with my cavalier slave swap... I think he might be talking about the fitting itself being too large in diameter. I had to drill out the "socket" in my slave to get my stock T56 hydraulics to fit in it. Probably one of those SAE->Metric conversions GM did over the years.

After I drilled out the hole that the fitting was supposed to slip into, it worked fine. So maybe he took the route of modifying his fittings on his hydraulic lines instead of the slave cylinder?

 

Here is the Russell one




LT1 one




Right in front of where the o-ring is(you can't tell it because the o-ring makes it look like the end is all one size) has a lip that is larger than the factory end. Simply remove the o-ring, grind the edge/lip off and it will work great. The part where the fitting is smaller is still the same and you can put the roll pin right through there just like factory

How it comes======D After grinding =======

 

I would like to send a special thanks to InfernalVortex for posting that pic of the pressure plate. I remember reading about this before and never quite understood where he got the rubbing at. Now I see and can much more understand what he had been saying.

 

Ahh sweet, for approximately 45 dollars it's worth a try. Will the 30in brake line be long enough or should I go with the 36 inch version? Only thing I worry about is that line specifically notes it's no D.O.T approved and is for off road use only. Really hate products like that lol. I don't have inspections in my state so I don't think it'd be an issue but makes me wonder what about the product doesn't meet D.O.T specs that they couldn't get it approved.

 

I actually found the picture of my new pressure plate showing where the clutch fork was hitting it in the same place that I have damage on my old pressure plate pictured above.

This will help anyone who doesnt quite see what Im talking about, or where the damage is. Between the two pictures you should get an idea of what's going on. This is looking up the clutch fork towards the input shaft, note the pressure plate springs to try to see what you're looking at. Clutch fork is on the right.

 

Wanted to try and get these fittings and line ordered today along with another order I'm going to be placing on summit today. But still not sure on the length.

Trying to search I found one person saying that 24" line was to long and they cut it to 13". I find it hard to believe that it's only 13" from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder.... Is there any disadvantage to using a line that is to long?

Also, I found another post saying 4AN was recommended over 3AN because 4 was slightly bigger and gave better clutch reaction. Is this true? Should I get 4AN fittings and hose instead? I do need to be able to shift fast at times when I'm autocrossing the car, so clutch reaction time is important to me. If I go with 4 though my choice on hoses is 24" or 38", is 24" long enough?

 

I looped mine around one time and covered it with the heat shield and it has been perfect. Pedal is firm with no disadvantages I can tell.

Go long because it's hard to add it!

 

so what is the best/ cheapest/ easiest config here?

It looks like there are a few options

1) T5 master & slave with longer line
2) T5 master & cavalier slave with longer line
3) T5 master & T56 slave with longer line
4) T56 master & slave and line


Can you just order and use a T56 clutch line?

 

They don't have just a line....


Your option really won't work well

1) T5 master & slave with longer line
-slave will overexcert


2) T5 master & cavalier slave with longer line
-no one has tried this...... I will be trying this soon with thirdgen pedals

3) T5 master & T56 slave with longer line
-same as option one as far as I know...

4) T56 master & slave and line
-releases at the very top. Need 4th gen pedals as well

 

Great -thats exactly what I was trying to do, create a summary

I will use all stock T5 except the line. I will modify the throw somehow and report back