I have a few questions I wasn't able to find answers for in my searches.

The U-Bolt for the Clutch Master Cylinder is GM # 12568902, but that part is discontinued. I assume GM used a U-Bolt instead of 2 separate bolts for some reason, so I wanted to try and duplicate the original install.

It would appear the spacing is approx 3.25" between the mounting holes. Has anyone found a U-Bolt that would work? I thought I could tack weld a couple nuts on the U-Bolt for the firewall side so they did not move, and then install it mostly like original.

I would prefer an "original" style.

Second question, does anyone have a template for the hole for the clutch rod that passes through the firewall. I have read to use the sound barrier marking as a template, but I don't really trust that. It moves quite a bit.

I did not take my setup from another car, so I don't have access to one to make a template from.

My thought was just to use a bunch of masking tape on the master cylinder and trim it around the part that passes through the firewall and then make a template in posterboard with about 1/8" or so extra... I am not certain how much extra room the factory cutout had around the mastercylinder.

Also, my assembly manual and maintenance manuals do not show any type of gasket around the MC and the Firewall. I would think there would be something to help prevent water leaking in.

I might be sensitive to that, since I have a fair amount of rust repair on the front of my floor pans from a previous owner cutting some hole and not having a grommet or anything to waterproof them (I assume that is why there is rust in the regions of those holes.)

Last question, for the "doubler plate" on the firewall that reinforces the clutch pedal mount, does anyone have an idea of the thickness of that piece? The pictures I have seen, it appears to just be a flat piece of sheet metal tack welded to the inside of the firewall and a curved section that conforms to the bump for the brake MC & Pedal mount. I have found ones for 2nd Gen cars for sale, but not 3rd Gen.

Also, are there any reinforcing support rods to the mount? My books did not show them (although the assembly manual seems COMPLETELY out of order w/ no index), but I saw a thread that mentioned them.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Ken

 

Do you know how I know you haven't read the T5 and T56 swap threads? Because you're asking questions that have been answered over, and over, and over again. Go read them, bump the thread again if you don't find your answers. They're probably in the sticky threads at the top of the transmission subforum, but you can also use google with terms like 'T5 swap' and 'site:thirdgen.org' to find results from the forum.

 

"T-5 Swap" results in 497 threads.

There is NOT a T-5 Swap Sticky in the Transmission section

The GM Part # no longer being available seems recent as most of the threads talk about getting one from the dealer or the donor car... I did not have a donor car as my original post stated. Other threads talked about using separate bolts along w/ others saying that separate bolts is not a good idea due to stress on the MC mounts. Hence, I asked if someone had found a U-Bolt that works that I might find at an supply store.

I have brake/clutch pedal set from Hawks Performance. I am not sure if they are different than the threads talking about support rods, that is why I asked about these rods. The support rods were also not shown in the assembly manual for an 86 Camaro.

Not sure why I should read about all the challenges of installing the T56 when I am not installing that trans... Although I have read through a lot of them as I wasn't sure if I was going to go 5speed (original) or 6 speed (custom) install. The "T56 Sticky" has 561 posts in it... Very likely to have a comment there about the U-Bolt question that I overlooked... but I am not a speed reader or librarian. Plus, that thread was from 2007 and at that time apparently the U-Bolt was still avail.

The reason I asked about the template is because there are numerous threads saying to use the firewall pad as a template. Along with about as many threads saying DO NOT use the pad as a template. Saw a few threads where people drilled holes more than once because the initial set of holes were not correct. Also a lot of discussion about having the alignment off causing an issue w/ destroying the master cylinder from the rod not being aligned correctly.

A search on the various parts suppliers did not have a gasket for the master cylinder, nor was a gasket mentioned in the kits for a master cylinder.

Based on all that, I thought I would try to get this project off to a good start by asking help from the community of people that might have advice about doing it correctly the first time w/out rework.

A generic comment like "Search" and "Read" doesn't really get the answers I am looking for. I only ask questions once I have run into the proverbial brick wall and cannot find it myself.

Attached are pics of the pedal assembly I got from Hawks in case that helps w/ the question about support rods.

 

Those are 4th gen style pedals and don't have the support rods. IIRC the 4th gen cars had more robust firewall material and thus did not need the support rods on the pedal assembly.

Borrowed pic courtesy of @89irocz355 -



I used the support rods on my 3rd gen pedals after they were mounted to mark the locations of the bolt holes for the master cylinder. Once that was done I used a template made from the carpet I cut out to mark the location for the master cylinder cut out. This is one big reason I went with the 3rd gen pedals instead of 4th, in addition to the pretty beefy supports that will add rigidity to the firewall area.

For a gasket, I just made one out of thin neoprene rubber. You could probably also use a sheet of regular gasket material from an auto parts store or even RTV.

Not sure on the U-bolt, I was lucky enough to receive one with the used master cylinder that the person I bought my pedals from had. You might be able to find one on ebay.

 

Also I think those two holes on the left side of the support "leg" on the forth gen pedals also locate the two master cylinder bolts, but I also seem to recall some possible issues with the pedal/master cylinder rod geometry with 4th gen stuff.

 

Thanks for the helpful replies.

There are 2 holes on the bracket that goes to the firewall that I assume the master cylinder bolts pass through. I was having a lot of difficulty getting the top bolt near the steering column support and the 4 bolts that go to the brake master cylinder to all meet up. The 2 holes in the bracket to the firewall were not very close to the marks for the clutch pre-made in the firewall pad. All that led me to putting the drill away and digging in the assembly manual and this site again.

The description on the Hawks site says:

"Hawks Third Generation is happy to announce the release of the new reproduction T5 / T56 Manual Swap Conversion Clutch Pedal Assembly for 82-92 Camaro & Firebird. GM pedal assemblies have been off the market for some time now. For those who are installing a T5 or T56 Transmission Swap to an 82-92 Camaro or Firebird, these are a must have. Included with this pedal assembly are the necessary brake switch, neutral safety switch & pigtails for these two switches."

I did not realize that the "reproduction" pedals I had were actually 4th gen pedals. I have some more work and research to do.

 

Yeah, don't go by the cut out in the carpet, mine was way off from where the pedals located the holes once bolted to the brake booster. I did cutout that part of the carpet and make a template out of it.

 

Let's think about this logically... Someone asks the same questions on a regular basis. So am I supposed to answer the exact same questions over and over and over again instead of just suggesting those people search out the existing threads where all those threads have already been answered before? It's a lot faster to use Google to find exactly what you want to know, than it is to wait for someone to reply. Who's to say the guy replying knows his *** from a hole in the ground? So you have to wait to see if anyone points out that guy is wrong. And the next time someone looks there will only be 497 threads instead of 498. I know the threads exist, because I've read them myself.

T5 or T56, doesn't matter. The clutch master and pedals are close enough to the same.

Put a want ad in the classifieds for the U-bolt, or look on Ebay, or anywhere that cars are parted and used parts are offered for sale - Craigslist, Facebook marketplace, swap meets, junk yards.

The gasket comes from donor cars. 1984-2000whatever. You can make the gasket from regular paper gasket material, just copy the outline of the clutch master, and cut an oval hole in the center. You also will want to find the firewall doubler from one of those cars, or find the photos I've posted of the doubler, and fabricate yourself one from sheet steel. Without the doubler, the firewall will flex, and potentially crack.

4th gen pedals will work, but they're less than ideal for the T5 setup. I'd also recommend never buying anything from Hawks, they're overpriced on everything.

 

I was just out messing around in the garage w/ my son talking about various things and a part drew my attention...

I have attached a few pictures of my pedal assembly (which I now know to be 4th gen style) w/ the Hydraulics mocked up.

For those of you that have done this swap or have an original manual car, does this U-Bolt arrangement look correct? I know that the Original 3rd Gen Pedals have 2 rods coming down to the u-bolts vs the bracket of this 4th gen style. My question is about the size/proportions of the U-Bolt?

To me, it looks like a good fit/replacement part to the OEM one that I do not have access to (yet).

By the way, this U-Bolt is the U-Bolt that holds the factory rear sway bar in place.

I know that mounting kits are available via the aftermarket for the rear sway bar. I can just tack weld the two nuts on the engine side in place, media blast it, hit it with some suspension/frame black paint and call it a day.

I think this is an acceptable alternative to the OEM Clutch Master Cylinder U-Bolt that is discontinued and no longer available.

Looking for any advice or suggestions.

 

Aside from being larger than it needs to be. The factory U-bolt isn't hard to find.

 

The original bolts had M8x1.25 thread.
As long as the hoop isn't in the way for you, that will work fine. Flange nuts are good.

 

I did not check what the thread size was on that U-Bolt. Just trying to get something to mock it up and make sure I understand the final install.

I might take a die and cut the threads deeper on the U-Bolt and then cut off the excess. That should take care of the "U" sticking out so far once installed.

Plan to fab up the firewall doubler this weekend and get it welded into place then cut the holes to mount the MC.

 

For what it's worth, if you find you can't make that U-bolt work I ran standard bolts on my T5 master for about a year without any issues. It doesn't look stock but if you want to get the car together while you hunt for a stock replacement it's an option.

I'm also curious to see your doubling plate finished, I'll need to make one soon and might steal your design.

 

I plan to mock it up w/ some posterboard before transferring it to sheet metal.

When I am done w/ it, I will scan the posterboard and post it up as a PDF so that other's will have it as a reference.

I am really surprised how little there is available like that on here.

 

That's a great idea, I'm sure folks would appreciate it!

I already have my holes in the correct place, so my plan was to lay a piece of cardboard over the firewall in that area, trim the edges so I have the largest flat piece of metal possible, tack that into place, then use my existing holes as guides. I'm switching from third gen to fourth gen pedals, so I won't have the added support from the extra braces on the third gen pedals.

 

I've posted good clear photos of the factory doublers before. All anyone has to do is enlarge the photo in photoshop until the holes are the same distance apart as the U-bolt holes in the clutch master, print it out and spray glue it to a piece of sheet metal. Cut it out with tin snips or a grinder, drill the holes, and it's done.

You don't see a lot of people going out of their way to make step by step guides, because it's a thankless job. 9 times out of 10 times, any credit to the OP is deleted over the course of time. I've contributed a few how-tos to this website since the 90s. Some of them are still there mixed in with others from other contributors - https://www.thirdgen.org/technical-articles/ but most of them have had the bylines removed when someone updated the layout. Other write-ups on the forum were posted with photos hosted on the thirdgen.org server that had all the images nuked several years ago, several others had images hosted on Photobucket, or Homestead, or Geocities, or Angelfire, or whatever host you can think of from the last 20 years that has since gone out of business or otherwise deleted their servers. It's not that people don't make contributions, it's that new guys never read what's already there, hosts damage the data, and it gets buried on the forum and can't be found in the 499 search results.

 

The u-shape is flattened. From the underside of the U to the firewall side of the built-in washers is 1.4". The threaded section is 1.34". For your application and because of the bracket built into the brake booster, the U probably doesn't need flattened. OEM chassis bolts on those years were all metric as far as I know and if it fits in the master cylinder it is more than likely M8 thread.

 

Partial Success

The aftermarket reproduction pedals required quite a bit of work on the 5 min mounting holes. The 5th one at the top naturally lined up about 3/8" off. I spotted all 5 holes to give me some wiggle room. The upper two bolt holes to the brake master cylinder were too small for the MC bolts to fit. I guess 4th gen cars have smaller upper bolts. I spent (wasted) a few hours hogging out the mounting holes.

After all that, the holes for the clutch MC were easy. I have a poster board template for the doubler plate, but haven't cut and trimmed the metal for that piece.

Below are the initial fitting pics. The clutch rod naturally rests right at the mounting stud on the pedal. So, my concerns about missalignment are gone.

Once I cut the threads deeper on the swaybar u-bolt and trim it off, I will be happy w the doubler installation.

 

Preliminary template made.

I made marks at the top and side at 1 inch intervals to make sure you get it printed out to the correct scale.

This could be used for making a doubler... but at this time this is not a design for a doubler. It merely references my firewall and how my "reproduction" pedals from Hawks ended up getting mounted to my firewall.

When I scanned my template, the right side was cut off by the scanner. The test for the hole to the far right should read speedometer cable.

The two horizontal black lines are where the firewall bumps out for the Brake Master Cylinder. Fold your template here to allow it to lay mostly flat above and below.

The side w/ printing would go to the firewall from inside the car. I guess it would work from the engine side w/ the print towards you, but I made it with the card stock held to the inside w/ magnets.

The red line to the right is where I tore it so that lower section would lay flat.

I will update it when I get the doubler made and traced out.

Once again, I have a set of pedals from Hawks that were advertised as "reproduction for 3rd and 4th gen" ... turns out they are made like the 4th gen pedals... ie I do not have the rods that come down from the steering column region to the firewall. I am not sure how close my holes for the clutch MC would line up with stock 3rd gen pedals.

 

Not hard to find? Fill me in please!

 

.

 

There's no reason it "has to be" a U-bolt at all. I suspect the factory only did it that way because it was easier and faster on the production line.

 

I always wondered if the u bolt was one of the factory's half *** way of trying to gain stability from that lousy firewall. When I swapped to a hydraulic setup from a mechanical in my 82. A u bolt was one of the things I fab'd to try and add support/stability.

 

I always wondered if the u bolt was one of the factory's half *** way of trying to gain stability from that lousy firewall. When I swapped to a hydraulic setup from a mechanical in my 82. A u bolt was one of the things I fab'd to try and add support/stability.

 

I agree that it's not neccessary to be a U-bolt vs. 2 individual bolts. The U-bolt likely just made it easier on the assembly line. I have a Tick Performance adjustable clutch master cylinder and the u-bolt doesn't fit, so I'm using regular nuts/bolts.

Also, for a doubler/reinforcing plate and holt template, there are a number of options out there for aftermarket reinforcement plates.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/14671150885...42T5BE14E8330Y

 

On the fourth gen, the booster is closer to the firewall and the Ubolt hits the booster before it's all the way out. I learned this the hard way when I swapped to a 4th gen booster, then tried to remove the Ubolt yesterday lol.