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I'm looking at their G875410x It's a 4.10 thick, I want to put it into my 10 bolt 7.5-7.625 87 Camaro. I'm getting mixed responses on this whether this will fit or not. Although Motive list it for my 87. Here's the problem it says it has a 27 pinion spline count but I can't find anyone who sells 27 spline axle shafts . I must be missing something here. Anyone know of a 4.56 Thick Ring and pinion brand.
89-back axles & carriers have 26 splines, and 89-up have 28-spline axles & carriers. 89 was the changeover year so they're a mix. The later axles are quite a bit thicker and stouter in addition to the spline count.
The "thick" gears will "fit" your carrier if you have a 3.08 or lower gear now.
Your 87 has the weeeeeenie early-model 26-spline carrier and axles. Personally I wouldn't leave that garbage in there. And, if it's a "posi", it's probably an Auburn; therefore probably already wore out and turned to metal sludge in the bottom of the pumpkin, like most are. You can check easily enough: wedge the drive shaft (tire tool through the U-joints works great), put a lug nut on a lug upside-down with some washers to tighten against, and try to turn that lug. Should take something in the range of 65 - 80 ft-lbs if the "posi" is still good. Less than 40, and it might as well be an open, because you're still gonna get one-wheel peel. And when you do change it out, you'll want a 3-series carrier (not sure you can even get a 2 series since nobody wants that crap), which won't fit your "thick" gears.
And, your 87 has either drum brakes, or the non-functional cast-iron-caliper discs. Not the best choice for sinking money into.
All in all, in case you haven't done the math, I'm telling you NOT to buy the "thick" gears for your setup. Not so much because of the gears themselves, but because they lock you into spending your money TWICE after you put them in and then discover all the crap around them is GARBAGE. Better to find a 90-92 rear disc core, do axles, 3-series carrier (True-Trac would be my choice, in 2021), and new axles, all at once.
89-back axles & carriers have 26 splines, and 89-up have 28-spline axles & carriers. 89 was the changeover year so they're a mix. The later axles are quite a bit thicker and stouter in addition to the spline count.
The "thick" gears will "fit" your carrier if you have a 3.08 or lower gear now.
Your 87 has the weeeeeenie early-model 26-spline carrier and axles. Personally I wouldn't leave that garbage in there. And, if it's a "posi", it's probably an Auburn; therefore probably already wore out and turned to metal sludge in the bottom of the pumpkin, like most are. You can check easily enough: wedge the drive shaft (tire tool through the U-joints works great), put a lug nut on a lug upside-down with some washers to tighten against, and try to turn that lug. Should take something in the range of 65 - 80 ft-lbs if the "posi" is still good. Less than 40, and it might as well be an open, because you're still gonna get one-wheel peel. And when you do change it out, you'll want a 3-series carrier (not sure you can even get a 2 series since nobody wants that crap), which won't fit your "thick" gears.
And, your 87 has either drum brakes, or the non-functional cast-iron-caliper discs. Not the best choice for sinking money into.
All in all, in case you haven't done the math, I'm telling you NOT to buy the "thick" gears for your setup. Not so much because of the gears themselves, but because they lock you into spending your money TWICE after you put them in and then discover all the crap around them is GARBAGE. Better to find a 90-92 rear disc core, do axles, 3-series carrier (True-Trac would be my choice, in 2021), and new axles, all at once.
Motive gears are fine for any street application.
Thanks for the response. I'm at about 450 HP, I do have a series 2 in this running 2.73 . Now is there a strength difference between the series 2 and 3 carrier. I will be changing ring and pinion, adding a girdle and Axles. So are you saying that Motive Ring and pinion aren't strong enough for 450+ Hp.
There is no significant "strength" difference between a 2 series and 3 series carrier, of the same make.
I didn't say anything about the Motive parts not being strong enough for 450 HP, or anything else about 450 HP.
What I DID say was, you have the 89-back carrier with the weeeeeenie 26-spline axles and carrier, which are weak; and most likely an Auburn carrier, which is a POS. I didn't mention but probably should have, that the next most likely possible carrier is a Gov-Bomb which is even worse. All in all, NOT the "core" to be spending money on the surrounding parts.
There is more to life, including parts choices and upgrade paths, than "strength" and throwing around HP numbers.
Oh for Christ sake , I told you the horsepower to give you a idea what the parts would have to be up against, hence the question about the Ring and pinion. Listen I'm simply trying to find a way to put my hp to the road better then the restriction of a 2.73 without spending 3 or 4 thousand dollars to do it the best way. Why do questions have to be met with such polished cynicism. People come in here with all level of knowledge and ask questions and people have the knowledge to help them but some do it at a price of beating them up over it. AS a matter of fact so far with this group I'm 50/50 as far as responses are concerned.
Oh for Christ sake , I told you the horsepower to give you a idea what the parts would have to be up against, hence the question about the Ring and pinion. Listen I'm simply trying to find a way to put my hp to the road better then the restriction of a 2.73 without spending 3 or 4 thousand dollars to do it the best way. Why do questions have to be met with such polished cynicism. People come in here with all level of knowledge and ask questions and people have the knowledge to help them but some do it at a price of beating them up over it. AS a matter of fact so far with this group I'm 50/50 as far as responses are concerned.
jbander, I think you are mistaking the pinion splines with the axle splines. The ring and pinion is talking about the pinion splines as in what yokes will fit. The yoke is what the Driveshaft u-joint mounts to.
Yes you are 100% correct , that realization came after my first question. Thank you/ To many things that I'm trying to learn rattling around in my brain. Getting closer. My point in the above response was in reference to using the Motive gear ring and pinion because of the strength, not the relationship with the spline count but you are right my original question I didn't understand the spline reference relationship at the time. Again thank you.
Brand wise, I don't think it really matters.
Ratio wise, It would depend on lots of factors. Injection type, camshaft, transmission, purpose of car etc.
The rear end will always be a weak link in these cars, I'm just hoping to make it strong enough to handle the 4.10 or 4.56 ring and pinion, I would like to put into it , Can't find a 4.56 thick to use. If I could I think I would use it. One of the problem is, even with those two ring and pinion ratios ,I will still be under the stall speed of my converter in my .7 overdrive 700r4 at road speed. I've watched it close with the 2,73 that I have in it and it seems to get real hot but I really have nothing to reference it by but I have been concerned with over heating the transmission over any lengthy drive. My point is if I had to spend 4 thousand dollars for a strong rear I think investing that in another car with a stronger rear end would make more sense. Again thanks for the response.
Oh for Christ sake , I told you the horsepower to give you a idea what the parts would have to be up against, hence the question about the Ring and pinion. Listen I'm simply trying to find a way to put my hp to the road better then the restriction of a 2.73 without spending 3 or 4 thousand dollars to do it the best way. Why do questions have to be met with such polished cynicism. People come in here with all level of knowledge and ask questions and people have the knowledge to help them but some do it at a price of beating them up over it. AS a matter of fact so far with this group I'm 50/50 as far as responses are concerned.
Here it is - real simple:
The money you would sink into your weak 10 bolt would absolutely be better spent on a stronger rear from the get-go. If you truly have 450 HP, it won't last long.
Sofa's answers get straight to the point.............. and he already told what to build. If you want to ignore good and correct advice, that is your choice.
The real problem with this rear is the size of the pinion gear - and it gets smaller (weaker) as you go up numerically in ratio.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; Jan 23, 2021 at 09:41 PM.
Lets try one more time , I will not spend 3 or 4 thousand on a rear end . If I would think of spending that amount of money,the 3 or 4 thousand dollars would go into another vehicle instead, with stronger components built in. My 10 bolt is 38 years old. So my choices are leaving this old 10 bolt in the car as it is and align that with the fact that It's ridiculous to put 3 or 4 thousand into this car instead of using it for seed money for another car in my opinion, Or should I go through the 10 bolt I have with all new parts, Ring and pinion , new bearings all around, new Axel Shafts and new Girdle. That are the only choices I have financially. Now I've explained that multiple times now. Is this group just for people who can afford solving their problems with a bucket full of money. Hell that's a easy solution, hardly one that really many of us can afford. Now is there something missing in this explanation that makes it so you can't understand what I'm saying, it's totally possible but then just point that out if that's the case.
I still think it is bullshit when people give sound advice and insult you as the price of that advice. This is happened multiple times in this group. So I'll stick to my opinion.
The only reason you are insulted is because the advice does not agree with your opinion.
Ever hear this one: opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one, and they all stink.
I upgraded my 10 bolt and dumped more than $1000 into it, purchased a brand new carrier, 4.10 gears, 28 spline axles, Locker, Aluminum girdle and welded the axle tubes. It lasted a while but its because I did have 2 things, a sticky tire and a stick shift. I upgraded to a moser 9" and sold the 10 bolt off, the new owner sheared the teeth off the gears within a month as he added the 2 things.
Originally Posted by jbander
Lets try one more time , I will not spend 3 or 4 thousand on a rear end . If I would think of spending that amount of money,the 3 or 4 thousand dollars would go into another vehicle instead, with stronger components built in. My 10 bolt is 38 years old. So my choices are leaving this old 10 bolt in the car as it is and align that with the fact that It's ridiculous to put 3 or 4 thousand into this car instead of using it for seed money for another car in my opinion, Or should I go through the 10 bolt I have with all new parts, Ring and pinion , new bearings all around, new Axel Shafts and new Girdle. That are the only choices I have financially. Now I've explained that multiple times now. Is this group just for people who can afford solving their problems with a bucket full of money. Hell that's a easy solution, hardly one that really many of us can afford. Now is there something missing in this explanation that makes it so you can't understand what I'm saying, it's totally possible but then just point that out if that's the case.
I still think it is bullshit when people give sound advice and insult you as the price of that advice. This is happened multiple times in this group. So I'll stick to my opinion.
The point trying to be made here is the carrier for the 'thick' gears are junk so don't waste your money on a 'thick' ring & pinion set. I understand you do not want to spend 3-4 k on a rear end. However you can get a decent carrier & gears & stronger axles for allot less than that. Plan on spending about a grand to1500 for a decent rear that will hold 450-500 hp.for a while longer than that tiny 'thin' carrier you have now. I did my '86 up with a zexel/torsen carrier & upgraded axles and welded the tubes. Also with the support cover. With 3:73 ratio. Having said all that, other than some occasional trip's to a drag strip or street race, you would have to go larger diff which is allot more money as you know. Good luck.
All in all, in case you haven't done the math, I'm telling you NOT to buy the "thick" gears for your setup. Not so much because of the gears themselves, but because they lock you into spending your money TWICE after you put them in and then discover all the crap around them is GARBAGE. Better to find a 90-92 rear disc core, do axles, 3-series carrier (True-Trac would be my choice, in 2021), and new axles, all at once.
Hands down the best advice you can get for this situation. Definitely not a $3,000 - $4,000 solution either.
Hey jbander are you going to be installing these gears and related components or are you going to pay someone to do that ?
How much is a rear from a 4th gen again? You pull it? May get lucky and it have a decent carrier. 300?
I think that's what sofa was saying. Bolt in rear, that's not only 15 years newer, but stronger, and fairly inexpensive.
Is this group just for people who can afford solving their problems with a bucket full of money.
No: but our advice is for people who only want to spend their money ONCE. Not, spend some, something breaks, oh$hit spend some more, it breaks again, oh$hit spend some more replacing all the parts you just replaced twice already plus 1 extra part, oh$hit it tore up again except this time it took out yet another extra part, ... hard to enjoy the hobby when that's the point your "cheeeeeeeeeep" mindset leads you to.
I've seen it happen WAY too many times in my many decades in this hobby. Some people never seem to learn.
You asked for advice. I gave you advice. Looks to me like you want cheerleading instead of advice. I'm not a cheerleader. I'll tell you THE TRUTH every time, not just whatever you want to hear. Take it or leave it.
Good luck with your project. You're going to be needing it. If you won't use brains or listen to voices of experience, all that's left to you is luck.
Don't waste money on a 4th gen rear, they're the same thing inside. Here's what I did. I got a used 4th gen LS1 rear with a good Torsen Posi unit and rear discs. I put the posi unit, with new gears and bearings, into my 90 housing, and added the rear discs to that housing too. Will it last behind 450 hp?? For a while. I have a crate L31 making 300hp at the most, so for me it'll last a long time. All this and I'm probably into it for about 800 bucks.
Build a decent rear end like this, and don't abuse it while you save for a 12 bolt or something.
Rearends cost money. I spent $1400 on a Ford 8-inch (which is stronger than the 7.5-inch 10-bolt), and 450hp would destroy it if I had traction..
My thirdgen has only around 250hp, and I'm running the stock 10-bolt for now, but eventually I'm gonna to have to spend around $3500 for a good rearend (like a 9-inch Ford modified for a thirdgen). And I'm not rich, so I'll have to save my pennies. That's just reality...
