hey everybody, i am farely new to this forum, as in this is my second post ever but i plan to be on here alot more. my father and i have built countless small blocks but we are both new to the electronically controled v6ers. please bare with me as i am still learning ya'lls terminology. what is the difference between the 2.8 and 3.1? is it stroke or bore or what? is the block the same with just different machining or what...i have aquired a complete 2.8 along with the 2.8 already in my car so i am searching for ways to build this thing right. i want to go ahead and build the top end of the motor with the one in the car. strip the second motor down including porting and polishing heads, then build the bottom end on the spare block. any and all help is greatly appreciated. i need to know things like brand/bore/stroke and real cubic inches...not this metric stuff, i don't understand it. i know that the 2.8 is 173 but nothing else. i bracket race this car and am also going to get a 3500 stall converter among other things including some spohn performance parts. thanks again...

this is my ride

 

The 3.1 and the 2.8 are virtually identical. The extra displacement comes from a stroked crank. The con. rods are the same and the piston bore is the same BUT the 3.1 pistons have a different pin location to accomodate the stroked crank.

The 2.8 is 173 as you stated.
The 3.1 is either 189 or 191, i've seen both.
The 3.4 is either 204 or 207, also seen both.
A rough formula to convert liters to CI, is basically Liters x 61 = Cubic inches.

What you're gonna hear a lot of here, is that the 3.4L is the best starting point for any 60* V6 project. The RWD version came with 160 HP, compared to 135 and 140 for the 2.8/3.1 respectively. The 2002 FWD 3.4's are up to about 180 HP, unfortunately it's not to easy to use a FWD block in a RWD application.

What car will you be using? The one in your sig looks exactly like mine except for the wheels...but i'm trying to pick up some stock wheels cause my American Racing wheels blow.

 

u said that u want to stay away from the metric stuff?? the 60* v6 is (if i remember rite) the first all metric gm engine.. anyways..

2.8L 173ci - 3.50" (89mm) bore - 2.99" (76mm) stroke
3.1L 191ci - 3.50" (89mm) bore - 3.31" (84mm) stroke
3.4L 207ci - 3.62" (92mm) bore - 3.31" (84mm) stroke

(lc1) 2bbl 2.8 (approx 100hp) 82-84
(lb8) mpfi 2.8 (approx 135hp) 85-90 - bigger valves on heads and more aggressive cam
(lh0) mpfi 3.1 (approx 145hp) 91-92 - only major difference is the stoke (0.32" longer)
(l32) sfi 3.4 (approx 160hp) 93-95 - bigger valves on heads, more aggressive cam and bigger bore (0.12" over)

just about everything is interchangeable between all the 60* v6s.. this is a list of all of the 60* v6s that appeared in f-bodies.. the 2.8s in s-series trucks (s-10, blazer, and such) are a little different (cams and intake), but the same applies to them.. there were non-cc 2.8 from 82-84 that were sold in canada (2 first vin = gm of canada, 1 first vin = gm of usa).. the only major diff is the carb (E2SE cc 2bbl carb, 2SE non-cc 2bbl carb) and dist (vac adv, comp adv).. i believe federal s-series trucks were also non-cc.. http://www.s-series.org has alot of ppl that know alot about non-cc carbed 60* engines..


-mike (loomdog)

 

loomdog32, not to be picky, but the 3.1's started being used in 1990

 

the car in the pic (1989 rally sport) is the one that i am referring to. it the the 2.8 car. i don't have a problem with the computer controlled stuff, i just don't fully understand it all yet. i like the fact that i can run consistent 17.90's at the track with .50 and .51 lights all day and still get 27mpg on the highway with the air on. i just wanna go a little faster

 

Now we all can understnd that

 

Besides fasteners, not too much on the motor is "metric"... I think even the fuel pump flow is measured in gallons per hour. (Well, it should, if fuel pressure is PSI, and not kPA!) (Is KPa the metric pressure unit? Ah, whatever. )

So, any 2.8 things aside, what do you want to know about a computer controlled motor? The 2.8 MPFI is a very close cousin to the 5.0/5.7 (305/350) TPI injected motors, the differences are minor. Each has one injector per cylinder. Each has a high pressure pump. Each has a computer, each motor (of the same year) uses the same method for measuring incoming airflow, each have an EGR (which doesn't affect WOT performance, so don't bother bypassing it), each has a throttle body with a ThrottlePositionSensor and IdleAirControl valve, .....

If you go to http://www.pawinc.com and get the catalog (the boneheads charge something like $5 for it, but its worth it), you'll see tons of rebuild parts for a 2.8. Major stumbling blocks? NOBODY makes a distributor for the 85-92 MPFI motor, but ours can be rebuilt with hi-po V8 parts. Forged pistons are an extra $300. Nobody makes headers for our cars. The Pacesetter 3.4 Camaro/Firebird (93-94) headers fit the 2.8/3.1 ENGINE, just not the 82-92 CAR. The secondaries have to be bent to fit in the engine compartment. Exhaust from the cat backwards (including the cat) is the same as a V8 305.

Have you done any mods yet?

 

this is why tom is so great!

i love how you put the headers!

gas mileage is great, huh?

 

that's an awesome launch. friggin dead hook. it scares the heck out of me when my front goes up like that. i've only done that at Cecil County Dragway in MD. no tracks in NJ has that better traction with my whimpy street tires and open diff.

 

wish i had that kind of traction!

 

cecil county eh? my dad and i are with the NMCA. he is actually the preacher for the organization, quite cool actually. we were out at cecil just one week and a half ago, did you get to go? well, the car has pretty much always left like that. i have k&n filters, accel super coil, good quality injectors(brand unkown) accel 8.8mm wires, b&m shift kit, splitfire sparkplugs, dynomax catback. not much else i can think of. had a dynamic converter and lockright locker but broke both of them screwing around. the converter and locker had the car running 16.70's, and gas mileage was still up there pretty good around 25...

 

wow u thats more than a second diff in the 1/4 (17.9-16.7)..between that lockright...and no lockright

whats that part do ??..and where can one get it from...

 

no, i didn't. i was there at the American Iron Shootout on 4/20. here's some pics: http://www.tristategm.com/media/ais-one.html the 1st pic on 2nd row of a Black 4th gen Camaro is me.


he did mention he had a dynamic converter with the lockright. probably a high stall TC to launch that hard.

it's a diff like LSD, only heavy duty and expensive. i heard they were great for going in a straight line but sucks when making turns.

http://www.powertrax.com/locker.htm

 

the lockright locker was not a good deal for the street, they open up and "click" going around corners. go around a corner too fast and they won't unlock and you could end up in a ditch. get a limited slip differential. they work way better. the car was running 17.30's with just the locker and then went 16.78 or something like that with the 3500stall converter. give Dynamic Converters a call, they make fairly good/cheap converters on a custom basis only. ATI makes a much better one, however, my dad has an ATI in his 85' z28. 355/glide setup and over 800 passes and still tickin'

 

I've had both engines (in different camaros i've owned/own). It doesn't even feel like you are driving the same car (though the 2.8 was carbed, and the 92 is Fuel Injected)...and I am amazed at the difference...mind you it still isn't fast, but they gets you around well enough. I would definatly push for the 3.1L over the 2.8L....

woohoo, 100 posts! I am a senior member now!

 

im actually lookin for a stall converter...

how good/bad is a 3500 stall for the street...
is it drivable ..???

 

the 3500stall converter that i was running was great for the street. i didn't have any problems with it until i started dogin' on it (ie neutral to drive at 4500rpms) then naturally it died. i was one of those stupid kids that gave camaros a bad name until i finally had to replace the whole tranny, converter included.

well, since i have another complete 2.8 at the house, i think i'll get it bored .040 over and then get the stroker kit to make it a 3.1 so that would be what, about 200 cubic inches? maybe?

 

Cost effective wise decision
Find a used low milage 3.4 long block.
I've done this twice. Best bang for the buck for the effort.
All in one package.
All 82-85-2.8 FEDERAL 49 state S-Series vehicles DO NOT have ANY computers at all.
The 3.4 head VALVE SIZE is IDENTICAL to the 1985 MPFI head, valve size.
Diff?
Springs, retainers, locks, 3.4 stuff is stronger for higher RPM's

 

speaking of higher rpm's, how hard can i spin this thing?

 

i cant get my car to launch like that, but then again this being my first car and used to trucks, i guess im not just used to it,
i have a 3.1 auto and heard that u can hold the brake and give a lil gas to simulate and stick
wish i had a 5 speed!!!

 

I've gone as high as 6000 RPM, and don't dare go higher!

 

In reality, you can spin until it breaks!
BUT where is the usable power band for a 2.8/3.1?
Both engines having the same cam design, have the power bands at 2800 - 4500 RPM.
These engines not designed to breathe hard & the cam is limited, along with.......
Garbage in-garbage out
A 3.4 has the same power band, but much more linear, as 2.8/3.1 is peaky.
Plus the 3.4 has torque (bigger bore & stroke) over the smaller sized engines.
I'm sure, once I get my engine exhaust better operating & the intake performing better, I can go into higher RPMS for power & bring the gear upshift into the torque/power band quicker.
I have 200 foot pound of torque at 2700 RPM.
That's good freight train power

 

there is a method of staging called "power-staging" which is basically bringing the rpm's up till right before the tires start to spin, that's the basic point to a high stall converter, so that you can bring more rpm's up before the wheels start to spin. the pic is the car with the stock converter which stalls at about 2200rpms.

 

Also increase destruction of tranny way quicker, that way, too.
It's your trade off.
Me?
I'll take a working tranny!
I just got my second rebuilt 700R4 for my 3.4 swap into the Blazer.
That's two rebuilts in one year (actually within 8 months).
These 3.4s eat trannys for breakfast so much torque!

 

KED....you can damage your tranny doing that? Are we talking about sticks or autos now? I don't see how revving the car to the "lurch point" in an automatic, as I call it, and launching from there could wear the tranny...? (BTW..when I know I'm going to lose a race, I bring the RPMs up the highest they go before I lurch forward and launch from that, which causes me to break traction and look much more powerful than I really am..) A tip for you guys.. And by the way...I felt a big difference between driving my buddy's Flowmastered 2.8 and my Stock 3.1. The 3.1 has a much, much, MUCH better launch..more low-end power I guess. But as far as I can tell, in the midrange they're damned near identical. Then it just boils down to shifting. I've lost several races on account of my tranny redlining the car before shifts.... If only I didn't make 5.40 an hour..........

 

man for bein a mostly stock 2.8 that is a terrific launch! that is better than i can do with my modded 2.8. i should look into a higher stall converter.

 

how come the high stall converter wasn't the first thing that ya'll did? that is the first "big" thing on my list. get a 3500 stall converter and the car should pick .75 sec. there was a guy on here supposedly with a 3.1 that was running 14.5's with all kinds of mods. i beleive that with my 2.8, i can run faster. bore it .040, stroke it to 3.1, about 200 cubes. port and polish everything, crower valve-train, forged pistons, good connecting rods, magnum roller tip rocker arms...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but with the high stall converter being one of the first things i do along with 3.73 gears w/ lsd, should run low 14's, also looking for turbo/supercharger applications.

 

Automatics.
These V-6 trannys, AS IS FROM THE PREVIOUS OWNER YOU LIKELY PURCHASED FROM...
I suggest, do not power brake your tranny often.
Unless you feel like purchasing a tranny rebuild quicker.
IF YOU HAVE HAD REBUILT TRANNY INSTALLED, power brake often as you like.
ME?
I'll save my power braking from when I hit the drag strip. IF I need it.
I like my go from standing start with the 3.4 at a light.
Does the job quite well.
I don't loose traction, just have solid torque thrust (200 foot pound at 2800RPM!).
That takes care of alot of problems!

 

Wow..you do a standing start launch? Whew..I hate those. That 3.4 makes serious low end torque! You must love that engine.....

 

BTW..I don't power-brake her often. But that's to preserve tire life..didn't know it caused tranny issues..strange. Yeah, it's the original non-rebuilt auto with 103,000 miles on it. Hard and late shifts, gear hopping, and kicking at certain speeds...which I take is either the tranny or my torque converter locking and unlocking rapidly for some odd reason.

 

I recently rebuilt the tranny in my Firebird (had it done).
I killed it behind the swapped 3.4!
I lost the 3.4 clutches (internal auto clutches).
This rebuilder did a primo stock job, slightly beefed up.
No chirping just solid shifts.
No drive line shock or extra wear, except
You are so close for the rebuild, seek you options & suggestions NOW!
IF you REALLY Love the car, you are replacing 1/4 of car (tranny) (1/4 engine, 1/4 rear axle/suspension, 1/4 body & interior).
It's an inve$tment.
I recently paid $600, twice for two rebuilds (vehicles below)
I really do enjoy the 3.4 power upgrade. Such a wonderful purchase deal for the (my personal labor swap) effort, cost & Very Good-Great amount of extra power.
I hope to add another 15-20 years to the vehicles by doing this on a $1K-$2K investment.
Not a bad return.
That's how you should always look at a project..
Know when to bail out! Or go whole hog...

 

the "power-stage" that i am talking about does not hurt the transmission. i don't know where you heard that but it doesn't. the whole point of it is to help with reaction time. your stand still staging process is not good for reaction times. with my consistent .520/.510 reaction times, i am very competitive.

"power-braking" is what you do to do a burnout. there is a difference. power braking does tear stuff up. it will tear up drive line along with chassis. so your story about "power-staging" hurting the drive line is

 

Have any ticket stubbs from going to sanctioned drag races?
I guess not.
IF you did, you'd know what you call "power staging" or "Power Braking" would eventually do to a car, drive train and transmission.
Especially a transmission, having never rebuilt for 103K miles, always behind a wimpy weak 6 cylinder, and a new owner trying to prove he's such a big shot because he also drives an American Muscle car.

Hey it's your wallet.

At only 17, having lots of clues, you'll find many creative and different ways to pay for your automobile repairs.
For real clues, why not ask this question on the tranmission board?
Oh, I gave ya a clue to another source for an answer you may not want to hear?
Imagine that......
So wise and only 17...
Wow.
I hear there's a job opening at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in a couple years.

 

i really don't like smart aleks. my time slips are in my room, want me to go and get them? i don't have a scanner so there is no way of getting them on the internet. sorry, the money over here is a little tight. my father has been drag racing since like 1975 and has won countless ihra and nhra as well as some nsca and nmca titles. his name is mark walter and is the current chaplin for the nmca. yes, that's right, he's a preacher. i am also a devout christian and lieing to you or anybody on these forums would contridict my faith. but hold on, let my go and get the time slip so you don't think i am making this up....

r/t: .506
60': 2.510
330: 7.345
1/8: 11.393
mph: 60.97
1000': 14.926
1/4: 17.955
mph: 74.26

another:

r/t: .533
60': 2.529
330': 7.363
1/8: 11.397
mph: 60.97
1000': 14.937
1/4: 17.961
mph: 74.50

these are just a couple that i found. the .506 was during time trials, the .533 was during qualifying at an nmca event in the street eliminator class where qualifying is based on reaction time. i qualified 3rd of 17. that's pretty good for my first race if you ask me. i was at commerce ga at atlanta dragway. if you don't believe me then oh well, my word is all i got. the time slips are in my hand.

as for the weak v6 idea, that's also not entirely true, cause my dad has been running the same power glide behind the same 355 small block chevy for 14 years. i don't appreciate you judging me on my age. if you want to ask somebody who knows how well i know my stuff then talk to Camp Stanley. if you don't know who that is then you obviously don't know as much about drag racing as you think. his email is camp191@aol.com ask him about Matt Walter, or the Preacher mans kid(s) (my little 11 year old brother helps him and his team on they're 14-71 Littlefield blown 542 ci bbc '67 camaro making in access of 2800 hp. his name is Jack Walter)

the pic of the car in my very first post should show you that, yes, i do race, but if you do not want to scroll up and see, here it is again:

 

Look didn't appreciate your reply either, but, so.....
NOW.
I truly think we're saying the same type of thing.
I know you're saying you're getting the powerband into the begining of the torque peak, on the cam, rpm range, right?
And we all know, something eventually gives unless you put $$ into every part of the car (for every action, there is an equal & opposite reaction).
NOW to me, staging- its hitting/tripping the lights at the start line.
You stage deep or shallow. Personal preference.
Sounds like we both talking about the same things.
Yes, this six is a weak engine. It is an economy based engine.
BUT, one can still have lots of fun with them!
GM did when they redesigned everything to create the 3.4! Lots of GM 6 cylinder in line truck blocks have powered MANY Bonneville racers, too.
Yeah, powerglides been shifting hot rods for ages.
As long you got the right cam/convertor/rear gear-tire height combo, those trannys perfect for the strips!
I don't talk religion, it's a personal thing.
I just silently try to prove it in the streets to others, everyday.

 

You need to be careful that you don't bog the convertor while doing that. I wouldn't bring the rpm's up to "right before" the tires start to spin; I'd experiment with rpm's until you find the one that works the best.

Such would be the case when I add the MSD 3-stage RPM limiter to my 6AL box. I could have one RPM limit for "staging", and one for "running". The staging one would be, say, 1800 RPM. So I'm at the tree, with my pedal to the floor, and my finger lingering over a button. Tree goes green, I hit the button, kick in the 6000 RPM limiter, and off I go. Combine that button with a line lock, and you don't even need to move your foot off the brake, just push one button.

I think doing a powerbrake (foot on brake, foot on gas, tires spinning) would be more damaging than a brake stand (tires not spinning). Although in both cases, you are beating up the torque convertor, and heating up the trans fluid. 700r4's run hotter than normal trannies "just because", and adding more heat wil kill the fluid faster.

 

i appreciate all the replies and most has helped. tomp, the electronics your talking about are not allowed in the street eliminator class of the nmca, that's why i do it this way, the stock converter in my car stalls at 2200 rpm's, i bring the rpms up to 2000, lights come down, off the brake, gas to the floor, good stuff, great lights, never heard of anybody tearing trannies or converters up because of it. i have been going to the strip since my mother was pregnant with me, i grew up there....sorry if i offended anybody about my faith, i just try to say jesus as loud as i can....

 

The convertors do balloon out a bit. If you blow a convertor you might wind up blowing the trans. But ever try different RPM's?

 

i tried some lower rpm's but it's a lot harder to cut a good light. i have had stock converters go out before but with the high stall converter, they generally stay ok. i am really sorry if i got a little angry, but i felt like it was a direct attack on my knowledge of drag racing and hot rods. i also felt like my dad was being attacked because my information comes from him a lot of the time so i was just trying to stand up for him. the power stage method has proved itself worthy in my family for over 25 years without any costly damage to drive train. maybe one of these days i will get a scanner. he,he,he, then maybe i will post a pic of my dad's Oscar from the 1988 cheif nationals at the texas motorplex, it's a really cool trophy.

 

I KNEW WE WERE SAYING THE SAME THING!
You call it & I call it.
ALL THE SAME.
Now, you want help or?
REALLY best answer will be the tranny guys.
Torque convertors do wear out, balloon, explode, etc.
I recently got a very through education on torque convertors.
I visited the factory where STOCK convertors are remanufactured.
I needed to purchase a convertor for my 3.4 into the Blazer swap. So I asked, he showed..
I DO NOT KNOW EVERY DETAIL, but..
eventually a "stock" V-6 economy tranny convertor/non-rebuilt V-6 tranny, will self-destruct, if ya keep loading it.
You can definetly have fun with it, until....
You are 100% right, that "loading the torque convertor, up to stall" will increase "zip" off the line.
And eventually it will break something (unless you have inve$$$$ted money into those "proper" parts).
Now that I have my 85 Firebird drivetrain working well, I just gun it.
NO loading the convertor.
I have way less wasted tire spin, as a 3.4 has 200 foot pound of torque at 2400RPM.
I don't need that "loading action" for 99% of the traffic lights in Los Angeles.
When I eventualy race this car, I'll find the proper way to launch it, at the track, then.
And hopefully, I can enjoying driving it, unharmed, for many miles after that "fun".
I like building & driving cars for 100,000 miles of non-replacement of stuff.
My Firebird 3.4 swap is approaching a little over a year of trouble free driving, now. Hot summers always test lots of parts endurance!

 

hey ked id ask this in a PM but uh,there is no PM button by your name...WHY

 

Because, you can always email me
Believe me, I am so computer awful, I'm thankful I finally figured out my new digi camera that I got back in April!
Just got old April pics uploaded and sent, now it's time to do this cycle again (take pics, upload & send).
Have to help out Elevario with a purchase of some stuff.
I know you guys do computer stuff way easier.
Me? IT's a great game to play.
One can say Hi to me anytime....