ok everybody says on here that are cars are high 16 low 17 cars, my first trip out to Ennis i ran a 17.8 with a .549 reaction time, i ran about 4 or 5 times and the high 17 was consistent!
i think the cat may be bad, would a new one actuall drop 1+ seconds off my time!?!?!?
list of mods in sig

 

People on here all run faster than me too. I think it's the track i run at(elevation, etc...). Just compare yourself to other's who run at the same track with the same engine and stuff. Hell you run 17.8 my v8 car ran a best of 17.2 stock! I know my v6 would run 18's. My friend's v6 T-5 only runs 18's.

 

A lot of things change track runs... like OUTSIDE TEMPERATURE, tire pressure, TIRE SIZE, steel or aluminum rims, or if you've got a heavy stereo system installed. High mileage clogged injectors or a high mileage & worn out (slipping) automatic trans, out of adjustment TPS/TV cable/timing, dirty filters, etc.

Even just mileage will kill it! I ran a 16.87 years ago with a poorly running motor, and "just" a dynomax cat-back. Now with all the mods I've added, and the engine in perfect tune, even with the 3.73 gears, I ran a 17.1. But back then, I didn't have 238,000 miles on the car.

Have you done the major tuneup yet?

 

To answer your question, yes the catalytic converter can cut your times by that much, but only if it is really badly plugged up. I had a friend recently whose 1997 Chevy 350 truck wouldn't hardly make 70 MPH on the interstate. He took it to the shop to see what was wrong and they told him it was the catalytic converter that was plugged up. They measured the backpressure somehow, and said that it had over 30 PSI! That's no

I know that now his truck has plenty of power and will cruise at 80+ MPH with no problems at all, and he just put in a stock replacement cat.

Most likely your converter isn't in that bad a shape. You might get a couple of tenths out of a high flow converter swap, but that would be about all I would expect from it.

 

Here is how I run 16.01

235 60 R15's
Cragar Rims

22PSI Rear
40PSI Front

No Spare Tire
Launch at 1800-2200RPM

Orlando Florida
76 degrees outside or cooler when I run
humidity is usually 50-70 percent, Florida for ya

Plus a few of my mods..... Now my buddies RS 2.8 which is two year newer runs 17's all day long.. I havea 86SC, more miles than him.

I think compression and engine wear is key. My engine is solid actually better than average for its age and miles and never being rebuilt.

 

o well i know the cat is bad my shop checked it yesterday, so im going to get a Hi-Flo, 10% discount
no i havent done a major tune-up just bits and pieces of it, i have the new plugs, wires, MSD, and im looking at getting some better fuel injectors but dunno which ones to buy, also getting it port and polished, bigger wires maybe, pulleys and a cam, and then eventually 3.73 gears

 

Even just having a stock set (junkyard!) of injectors sent to http://www.cruzinperformance.com should show an improvement. How much are they charging you for the cat? http://www.summitracing.com might be able to get it for even cheaper!

 

well i havent been to look at their cats, i found it at jegs for 90 havent tried summit, but then i just have to see about how much it would be to replace, if only my auto shop had a welder, they can only do bolt on stuff now, whatever is cheaper for the 2 combine is where ill go, i need it by the end of the year to pass inspection lol

 

No such thing on a car that is run monthly, gasoline has cleaners already in it.

 

No such thing? That's funny....how do you explain the Special Policy GM issued for California 96-02 CPFI 4.3L, 5.0L, and 5.7L engines regarding clogged injectors and injectors sticking open/closed?

I see clogged injectors all the time, and 99% of the time a simple injector flush fixes it. And the injector flushes I do ACTUALLY WORK.

 

Must be that special California gas for emissions reasons. YOU MIGHT want to also add the "SPECIAL POLICY GM" issued in all factory chevy manual thats not to use "OFF THE SHELF" injector cleaners because they eat the o-rings. I bet that the California policy has an approved GM cleaner that works. If your injectors are that bad in your 3rd Gen, your better off pulling them and replacing that way you won't have weak injectors in the future.

My question has always been, what are they "clogged" with LOL how bad if your fuel filter. Me personally on the engines that I've seen and pulled apart have always had nice clean injectors. My old mans honda, 248,000 miles injectors still going.

 

I honestly believe that any mechanic that wants to JUMP right to injectors as your problem, you better get a 2nd opionion. 9 times out of 10 it's usally just an igintion problem like a bad coil.

 

You ever looked at the back of your throttle plate? Notice the gunk? Now realize that the injector tips are exposed to the same exact CARBON BUILDUP.

What the hell, do you think we use a frieking magic 8-ball for diagnosis?
Nobody JUMPS to injectors being a problem. You may be surprised, but we actually have TESTS for this kinda stuff....no voodoo or black magic.

-INJECTOR BALANCE TEST: Uses a simple FP gauge and a FI tester
-INJECTOR RESISTANCE TEST: Uses a simple DVOM.

You yourself can buy a fp gauge, FI tester, and DVOM for under $100.

 

yep and like I said before that gunk was washed CLEAN away any WHERE gasoline had been sprayed by the injector and all my injector tips are CLEAN too. Nice and shinny. LOL ever use gasoline to clean your greasy tools, works like a champ don't it, it's does the same things when it goes thru the fuel system. Now if you have GUM up where the gasoline has stood a while then you may have a problem. But like I said before, the average car gets used once a month OR MORE so no problem.

I never said you used a " frieking magic 8-ball for diagnosis" but you would be amazed at the crocked mechanics that SAY injectors so they can make $$$$$$$$$$.


I'm glad to hear that your an honest mechanic and that your using the right tools. It's unbelievable the people that pull in to the service bay and their car is running ruff. What they need are plugs but the croaked mechanic says they need injectors. Trust me I bet you have heard the stories.

 

You'd be surprised at what all is in your gasoline. Deposits will begin to stick together on the hot surfaces of the injectors, and can build up. The injector isn't really clogged, it just doesn't spray that fine mist like it is supposed to. Instead it sprays more in a stream. This will cause a car to use more fuel and loose power. It is a really bad phenomenon with diesel engines, and much more noticeable. I had a diesel that smoked really bad and had lost a whole lot of power. I took the injectors to a repair shop that specializes in diesels. They have an apparatus that will test the injectors, and you can see the spray pattern. Mine were squirting like a water pistol instead of like a hairspray bottle. They cleaned and rebuilt the injectors, and now the diesel has its old power back, and doesn't smoke nearly as bad under load.

Same thing with our gas engines, but it is just not as noticeable. Maybe I used the wrong term by saying that injectors could be 'clogged'. Yes, a lot of fuels have something to help keep this from happening. The problem is that they don't put very much of it in there because of emissions regulations, and because it costs them money. Gasoline also has a shelf life and will gradually degrade into a thick varnish like material. I usually run some fuel system cleaner through my car every 10K miles or so, just to be safe.

Not trying to start any flames or anything, just trying to clarify my statement earlier.

 

Your forgetting pontiacguy1 that diesel engines inject it right into the cylinder, on a gasoline engine the injectors are outside they cylinder thus they aren't exposed to anything more then a little oil that comes from the PCV valve, which gasoline washs off in a snap.

Yep this is what I was talking about before, but if you run your car once a month it's not a problem. You find this happening in lawn mower's carb. that sit over a winter.

 

Sorry, gotta chime in... basically what your saying is gasoline doesnt carry any of the floating particles in it, which we all know it does. Gasoline cant be COMPLETELY refined to the point where theres nothing in it, if it was, there would be no point to fuel filters. Granted, most fuel filters take quite a bit of the particles out, but they dont. Due to some construction tolerances, most intjectors arent perfectly smooth in construction inside. Little minute things will find these imperfections and attach.. more and more attach, and thats how flow is restricted. Its the same thing as a clogging of a vein in your body..

 

My point with telling the diesel story was that any injector can get stuff in it and not spray properly. Diesels run at much higher pressure than our injectors do, and they still get choked. Also, when they get stuff in them, it is always on the inside where the stuff that causes the damage is located. I realize that diesel isn't as clean a fuel, but it still is a hydrocarbon fuel that will clean oil and soot deposits, too.

I am aware that diesel engines are compression ingnition engines that spray the fuel directly into the cylinders. Our injected cars spray right at the back of the intake valve. The spray pattern helps to vaporize the fuel, and if it isn't right, then the fuel won't vaporize as well as it should, and won't burn evenly or thoroughly. This will not only affect your power, but will affect your emissions as well, since more unburned fuel will be passing through your engine.

I agree with you that most people that want to blame the injectors first and foremost are taking you for a ride. Just don't totally dismiss it, because it can have a serious affect on your engine's performance. I am not trying to be a know-it-all or make anyone angry, I just want to make the point that injectors can get deposit buildup in them over time that will seriously affect performance, and that shouldn't be overlooked when searching for a problem.

 

Even just letting a car sit for a while can cause buildup in an injector. Don't forget how much abuse an injector takes; high heat, firing all the time, being shaken, etc. Plus, injectors also have a little screen in them as a "last chance filter". If the screen gets clogged up because of lack of maintainence, or even just high mileage, your injectors will be clogged. In fact, take a carbureted car as an example! Those carbs get dirty; sometimes, all you need is to take one apart and clean it to bring back performance.

The injector tips may be shiny, but you don't want to judge the inside of the injector by the outside. (haha, you could use that statement for anything... cars, people, houses, etc )

And krazy, it's a common thought that exhausts should be welded to be the best... it's also wrong. Clamps and bolt-ons work just fine- look how long factory exhausts stay on! Welding is usually associated with high performance custom exhausts because the fabricators have no choice but to weld- they're making the system from scratch, custom designed to fit one customer's car. A company like Dynomax or Catco has designed their exhaust components to be true bolt-ins to fit many cars... as an example, our catalytic convertors... I'd say 99% of f-body owners have the cats in the original GM location. There might be that 1% who've rigged up a true dual exhaust, and need special custom work- but if you don't need it, clamps and bolt-ons are the way to go. Spend another $5 for a stainless steel clamp, and you not only get a stronger clamp, but you get a reusable one.

 

So I guess guys like Rich J at cruzinperformance are all scam artists, and the fact that your car runs better on new/clean injectors is just in your head... and the old injectors out of my car dont really have gunk on and in them...

I guess it's a case by case basis.

 

Gotta chime in on this one... After chasing a sluggish performance/crappy mileage situation on my 85, I gave up and sent it to a shop. Guess what I had? FOUR CLOGGED INJECTORS (verified by the balance test). Yes these things clog after a while, and periodic cleaning does help (but not necessarily the off the shelf cleaners).

 

well, having that msd ignitition is probably hurting you more than helping. i see in your sig that there is no cam or valve train modifications at all. the msd is doing nothing more than your stock ignition system would do since your vavle train is stock. maybe if you upgrade your valve train along with the msd you may see some serious improvements then, i higher stall converter will definetly help free up some lost hp too.

 

I really don't see how an MSD could hurt, other than the extra 2 or 3 pounds of weight...

 

mw66nova your full of crap. MSD CAN help you in a lot of ways. The hoter the spark the less chance of a miss, better gas mileage, better emissions, SMOOTH idle, lots of benifits, even without all the mods yet.

If he has the 6A box with it even BETTER. The 6A box will give you a 435 volt primary voltage and a maxium of 48,000 on most msd coils. Now if he is only using the GM blaster or the MSD SS coils then yes he is only getting a stock voltage unless he uses the "BOX"

If he is using the Blaster 2 or 3 WITHOUT the box he is getting 45,000 max volts which is suppose to be 15,000 more then stock. HELPS YOU A LOT.

 

you know, the v6 guys are the most selfish people i have met on these boards yet. i try to help with the knowledge that i have and you blow me off. it doens't matter how much hotter the spark is if the valve isn't opening up more, yes, it will help you a little but if you were to do a cam change, then the msd box, you would see a huge difference. does this make sense to anyone other then me? if you all think that i am wrong then you will have to assume that everyone in the nmca-nsca super series is wrong too.

telling people that they are full of crap just instigates arguments which was what i am trying to avoid anyways, none of you did a horribly great job of answering his questions of how he can get his car to run faster. you just went off about some stupid gas mileage thing...

 

Ok mw66nova I know I should have said it in a nicer way like TomP but what ever you say.

:lala:

 

I actually think that we answered his question earlier on. His original question was about why his times were slower than what most other V-6s claim to be running. Several suggestions were offered, but we somehow got off on this 'injector clogging' tangent.

I never thought that a high perf. ignition would hurt you at all. I always assumed that it wouldn't help too much until higher rpms, where an aftermarket cam would also help. I do know that it will help some with your idle and with some crispness in the throttle response, but the main reason that most racers use the MSD ignition, or any other for that matter, is for dependability and delivery at high RPM. I think there were valid points made by everyone.

 

I would be embrarassed to ever run my little V6/60 at a 1/4 strip.

These motors are not drag race motors--its kind of pointless. There is no thrill in it. They are not that fast that you can almost legally do a 1/4 mile run on any highway on ramp and barely get a ticket for speeding!

The beauty of these motors is their lightweight for handling. You all should focus on that or might I suggest buy a different vehicle. Face the facts- 90% of vehicle on the road will beat us in the 1/4-- but only 5% can match or beat us through the twisties.

 

This from someone putting headers on his V6....

 

The fact is that the GM HEI ignition used on our cars is pretty damn good; in fact, an MSD 6-series box does little for ANY of the 3rd gen f-bodies, -even- the big boy v8'ers. I noted a slight improvement at higher rpm's, compared to "just" having an aftermarket coil. BUT, saying you need larger valves and machine work to keep an MSD box from hurting performance is wrong. Spark is spark! I would venture to say that even if someone did what you said, got larger ratio rocker arms and a cam, and then added an MSD box, that they wouldn't see a "huge" improvement. It'd be a minor one. But for someone with an older car, using worn out points, and a low volt (~22000) coil, they'd notice a bigger difference than us if they went to an MSD ignition.

As long as that ignition system is performing as good as it can, you don't have to worry about losing power. That's why I did an MSD 6Al when I ran out of bolt-on engine mods. It doesn't make sense to buy the box when you can buy other things that make a bigger improvement... for example, a distributor rebuild (cost is about $100 for parts). One problem with the MSD on our cars is that it can mask bigger problems. A while ago, the gap on my spark plugs opened up to "huge"- but the MSD box was still firing. A while before that, my distributor rotor burnt up- http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen/burnt-cap.html - and the MSD box was somehow still firing! GM HEI would've quit long before that... so it's a testimonial to how good the MSD box is.

And later on, if we choose, we can add the MSD 2-step rev limiter to the 6AL, and get a "redline" limit and a "staging" limit- the staging limit allows for a consistant launch at the tree. Couple the staging pill with a line lock, and you've got a launch at the push-of-a-button; all we'd work is the gas pedal and a button... no more "holding the brake". So an MSD 6AL box is worth that, if nothing else more. (That's why I always recommend the 6AL box over the 6A.. remember you also get $20 anti-vibe mounts with the 6AL, so you're really only paying $20 more for the rev limiter.)

 

What is wrong with putting headers on a road car? Doesn't matter what size engine you have, headers will make any breath easier. On a road car this will allow for a broader rpm range in individual gears through the corners sometimes allowing you to hold the car into gear at higher revs, or pulling a little more power out of the low end if speed contritutes having to upshift to maintain a quicker corner speed.

Headers can be beneficial in all types of driving, not just for drag racing. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I was simply stating a fact that these engines were never designed for drag race purposes. They were design for lightweight compact use and have only been professionally used in short track or circle racing. Never in drag racing. Im not trying to **** everyone off, i'm stating factual info and hinting to everyone reading this post that there is a better use for our cars than 1/4 mile times.

 

TomP what's the story about the GM cap do we need to change to something else when use higher voltage coils??

 

Yes, it is true that they were not designed for running the 1/4 mile. However, I personally feel that your previous statement is close minded and will **** alot of people off. Keep in mind that not everyone on here has 2 or three cars (I do, but I'm in the minority). Most of the guys have one car. And that one car has to serve as grocery getter, a way to work/school, a means to pick up a date AND something to have fun with. The original point was what's keeping him out of the 16.5-17.0 range (he's running a 17.9). He never claimed it to be ungodly fast and he's not shooting for 11's on the 6. He is wondering why he's not at 16's and gets told he should Autocross? Most of the tracks in my area that allow "run what you brung" are 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile dragstrips. I don't think autocross is going to allow a run what you brung and I doubt everyone can afford to get another car that would fit your description of a suitable drag car.

 

Ya know, Ryan, I should pop the cap off my car and see how it's doing. I went back to the Accel #8133 with the brass contacts. A v8 car with teh msd setup can burn out the center button on the cap, just like mine did. Supposedly it's got too much resistance. MSD sells caps for the v8's, but nothing for our v6's. (I'm still mad that they make a cap for the mustang i-4 2.3!) I called MSD about it and they said that my rotor must not have been touching the center button on the cap, causing it to spark, just like a spark plug. He told me to check the rotor height. I've seen that in magazines, they cut up an old cap so they can see the rotor, and they make sure the rotor is aligned with the vertical center of the cap terminals. This way they can be assured full spark to the cap terminal. But I'm not sure about the guy I called... he seemed unsure of himself. I gotta email Joe at msdignition.com, the email tech guy, about it one day. So I went and got another Accel cap- but haven't checked on it in a while. Maybe I'll do that tonight... or tomorrow, during lunch at work.

 

All the more reason they shouldn't be drag racing. It is the best way known to break a car. If they can't afford much then they really should not be drag racing or even autocross for that matter, however autocross doesn't have anywhere near the strain on the drivetrain that a drag launch and full revs do.

 

camaro_1986_19 ran a 15.1 with minimal mods with his 86 SC V6. sorry had to make fun of that. I don't frequent this board at all, so I don't know if it's been brought up before sorry.

 

TomP I see what your saying about resistance, the ac delco caps and rotors are steel. WELLS makes a red cap with brass terminals and they sell it at autozone. I think the Borg Warner rotor is brass, thats what I have on there now but I'll have to change my cap. Funny that there would be that much resistance in steel vs. brass (copper, zinc alloy).

But you do know what the resistance does don't you TomP??

It makes the dwell (sp i know) time longer thus producing a higher more welding like voltage.

As far as the cap to rotor, the last cap I had had a spring loaded center. The gap between the rotor and the post is the same for resistence for all cars so I don't see a problem there.

 

Yep, all the caps I've seen have had the spring, too... you can even see the AC/Delco one in the pictures. Ill have to pop the cap off this weekend... too much stuff going on here at work. Besides, I'm wearing a white shirt! And yeah, that's why I'm a fan of the low resistance MSD wires. As a bonus, when I cut my wire set, I was able to make the plug wires as short as possible.

 

i'm going to have to totally disagree with this one.

try bracket racing sometime. you'll be surprised. most of the track events for street cars are brackets. only a handful street cars run heads up.

bracket racing is all about consistency and mad driving skills. of course, the car needs to be running well but it does not have to be fast. at Englishtown's Trophy Marathon (on Sept 21st), a good driver in a 17-sec 2.8L V6 F-body can possibly beat a driver with a 13-sec LS1.