i got and exhaust system done on my car it was not cheap, this is what i did. i put a free flow calalconverter on after that i made all the pipes 3 " think to a flow master muffler and put on i think 5" magnaflow tips. it sounds nice.
anyway doing this did it give me anymore extra power i just dont seem to notice it? oh should i get one of those k&n air filter will it make a diffrence.

 

sound slike a nice system and it should free up some backflow and pressure and should help out a little in HP like 2-5 horses but nothing huge. the noticable thing would be the sound and looks from people as you drive down the road. do yo have a v8 or v6?

 

get that free flow intake your looking for,& it will be a little better. the power gain you got will be over a broad rpm range. look up TomP's full tuneup before you get lectured on it :nono: .

 

i have been tying to find this tomp tune up every one keeps saying how do i find it? i want to know whats the best everything to use... spark plugs, wires, cap, everything..... does he have it all?

 

You probally lost some low end toque.
some guy put a dynomax catback on his car. (i 4get who it was) and they took off the cat.
The pipes were 2 1/2" and without a cat they lost too much back pressure so they lost low end torque...
3" on a 6 is truely an overkill....

I'm sorry but.... :nono: 5 inch tips :nono: ?!?!?

 

Well, technically, you lost a lot of back pressure and low end torque.. i did the 2 7/8" intermediate pipe on my v6 after 1.6 rockers and such.. SOTP, you should have lost low end torque and made possibly a little upper end HP.. you would have had better results with a 2.5" pipe.. most likely

 

crap i did not know that could happen i am new at this give me a brake. My friend works a noise boyz and i just asked him what to do, he said that would be the best for power and sound, i was more out for trying to get the v8 sound. i am guessing the tips are 5 " they are bigger then the pipes thats all i know, could be 4". anyway so what i did was take off power i had? y is it over kill?
and the free flow converter is bad for my car??

 

free flowing cats are good, the intermediate pipe you have is whats overkill.. it reduces backpressure way to much for a v6 and killing that backpressure kills the torque too.

 

S**t u have no idea how mad i am i spent money to help gain power and sound and ended up looseing more then my money, is there anything i can do to make up for the looseing back pressure, like some why to compansate for it. and another thing i dont plane to have a 2.8 for ever if i put all this stuff on a 8 be to its advantage?

 

Who recommended the pipes & such
OR WHO SOLD YOU THIS SYSTEM?
And I assume, you signed paperwork approving the work....

Beyond that,
You have all the stock stuff up to the CC, right....
Factory manifolds & the factory "Y" pipe?.
remove all the pipes after the CC (it is a 2 1/2" in & out, right?)
and have installed a 2 1/2" Intermediate pipe, a 2 1/2" in muffler with 2 - 2 1/2" out pipes.
Done.
Sell the other stuff to a V-8 guy.
I'm amazed you can move from a stop sign.
Oh incidentially, you'll never get a v-6 to sound like a V-8.
Accept that.

IF YOU DID NOT SIGN A WORK AUTHORIZATION PAPER for this work, YOU MAY HAVE A CHANCE TO SUE THE SHOP IN COURT.

More than likey, you may get outta this experience with a very light wallet as your lesson.
Shame you spent SO MUCH MONEY and now.....

Why didn't ya atttempt to find this third gen website to ask us, before you got ripped off at the muffler shop?

5" tips?

Reading alot of "performance magazines" lately?

Hopefully you can find someone that can use this 3" pipes for their V-8 F Body.

Seriously, get rid of those sewer drain pipes and put on a proper sized exhaust. You'll gain so much more power, you'll be stunned.

Maybe then you can move the car down the street, instead of making lots of noise, loosing gas (& gas money) and ruining what drivetrain life is still left.

Seriously, Who talked you into this exhaust system?
A *****?
Sounds like their logic.
PS Could saved the money on the exhaust tips, Coffee Cans are that big & cheaper!

Good luck getting rid of your stuff, hopefully you can buffer this expense so what.
Expensive lesson. Bummer.
Should have left the stock system on, was better for your car anyday.

PS Can't say "R i CEr" anymore? Why?

Cost comparison..
My muffler shop will install a 2 1/2" intermediate pipe for my 85 Firebird for about $60 US dollars.
I found an Arvin (OEM muffler Manufacturer for many car lines) Z-28 style muffler in the wrecking yard for $15 with the pipe tips on it (muffler to bumper). Had installed for $40 including two new 2 1/2" chrome tips.
This muffler size is one 2 1/2" in pipe to two 2 1/2" out pipes.

In all seriousness, that is the MAXIMUM sized muffler you should run FOR THIS SMALL A V-6!!!!!!!!.

Any sized muffler larger, you're loosing more back pressure (the off the starting line torque, push you back in your seat stuff).
Hope these costs & proper offered sized pipe ideas can help you get your money back or the proper work done.
This shop screwed you royally.
I'd go back and start reeming this oversized stuff they sold you up their A$$

Can't say "R i c Er" anymore how freakin lame
Let me guess a R i CeR was offended.... sob sob

 

Yeah..serious r!cer logic there. They seem to think that the bigger the exhaust pipes, the better. Just not true...like everyone says, eats up your torque and your low- end power...moves the entire powerband into the upper rpm range. Our cars have a lot of low to midrange power with a buttload of low end torque..that's our identifying mark. That's where we eat up other cars...taking that away..well..it's just wrong! Shouldn't run any bigger than 2 1/2 in. I've got a high flow cat with a Dynomax muffler..2 1/2 in. piping from the cat all the way back..I'm VERY happy with it. It hauls butt off the line.

 

k today i went to noise boyz and talked with the guy about my car exhaust system, my bad i thought he put 3 inch pipe your right it is 2 1/2, he said he would not be stupid and take away the low end torque and told me a whole story about y not to use 3 inch pipes on a six like u guys said, he is on the ontario fbody organization (TFBM.ORG) and has a trans am so he knows all that stuff. THANK ***! you guys had me tripping about looseing power. but ya so i am ok now i did the right thing. i even got in the working on my car state and made my own cai. i took off the orignal small tube and ran one into where my lower fog light it and used the orignal middle tubeing at the end, it fit in perfect. did i do that right?? so with all the stuff i did how much of diffrence did i make?

 

Let's be real,
it's the seat of YOUR BUTT
You tell us

You feel like it made any difference?

Congrats on the exhaust pipes!
See if he can make you a smoother up front "Y" Pipe junction, too
That'll gain ya about a solid 5+HP!

Get going on the next mission.
Ignition!
Upgrade new coil & plugs, wires rebuilt distributor
Keep going you're getting there!

Next step is tune up time!
Timing chain change, too.
How many miles you have?
PS Don't expect to win every race, but cruise in Style! Keeps Chicks happier!

 

Just to clarify something here...

(rant)

GOING WITH 3" EXHAUST WOULD NOT HAVE KILLED YOUR F'ING BACKPRESSURE!!

FOR THE LOVE OF *** PEOPLE YOU DO NOT WANT BACKPRESSURE!!!!

The problem with using piping that is considered 'too big' is NOT THAT IT FLOWS TOO FREELY. It's the opposite - you actually have so LITTLE air moving through the pipe, that you create a 'layer' of air that... you guessed it... SLOWS THE AIR DOWN. THAT IS WHAT CREATES THE EXCESS BACKPRESSURE VS. A PROPERLY SIZED EXHAUST.

I swear to ***, if I hear another damn story about 'ohmigod ohmigod ohmigod!! I need teh backpressure!!!' I'm going to FLIP OUT!!!

Case in point - go to a drag strip. Ask ANY fast guy there, if he's running OPEN FREAKING HEADERS or ANY exhaust setup. You can not run faster than open headers. It does not happen. End of case.

(/rant)

eh... sorry... long day guys. LMAO!! It took my '< rant >' as a tag. Funny stuff.

 

Call Flowmaster & argue with them.
They make Horsepower with their products.

I've heard of many stock car teams also using "mufflers" to help balance out the exhaust pulses.

PLUS
PLUS

SO MANY PEOPLE (neighbors of the local tracks) have complained about noise at race tracks SO MANY RACE TRACKS ARE NOW REQUIRING CARS TO RUN WITH MUFFLERS. Muffler companies have been able to actually reduce noise while actually increasing HP by a few.
Here's the number for FlowMaster argue your point to the engineers & it's an 800#
800-544-4761

Your point about exhaust flow does have merrit.

 

Correction. Flowmaster mufflers make more HP than a stock exhaust. :lala:

Why... you mean after decades of racing... suddenly adding a restriction to your engine increases its power? I think not. If you wanted backpressure, please tell me the point of headers.

Yes, there is the possibility of going overboard, where you actually pull your intake charge out, as well as the exhaust with too much scavenging via headers. Everything needs to be matched together, but after that exhaust leaves your exhaust manifold, NO exhaust is the best exhaust.

 

Just to continue my ranting...

Exhaust Testing


So stick that in yer crack pipe... yeah, you know what to do - smoke that ****.

 

Here's the number for FlowMaster argue your point to the engineers & it's an 800#
800-544-4761

I've read the results.
It's true.
Argue to them, not me.

 

I don't think I can give you a "brake," but I can give you a break. Just kidding. 3" exhaust all around is kind of aggressive for a V6 though. The 5" inch tips are definately overkill. 3" is the perfect size in my opinion. My exhaust is 3" from cat to muffler and then it is 2.5" exit with 2.5" Borla tips. Its a no name cat back from J.C.W., but it has worked out pretty well, and still looks decent. I couldn't afford a Hooker, or Flowmaster at the time I got it. I needed an exhaust fast because my old muffler literally fell apart.

 

So ah... I take it you looked into the results of that exhaust testing... and noted that FLOWMASTER WAS IN THERE (not to mention not even one of the top contenders. All fluff). Furthermore, you're retracting your (infered) statement that a flowmaster setup (or any exhaust for that matter) will gain more HP than running open exhaust?

Ahh... ok, if that's what you meant, point taken!

Back to the original post, 5" tips must make that thing sound like a pissed off bumblebee... you can't recreate a V8 sound - you're missing two cylinders! What you can create, is a nice, V6 burble, if you do it right!

 

No,
didn't read the results.
I've read the past tests from reports in Car Craft Super Chevy Hot Rod Popular Hot Rodding Circle Track.
What I recall is that true, an open header exhaust can make horsepower over a capped up factory pipe set up.
Next is getting pipes on cars
Flowmaster didn't tend to loose HP, in some cases the Flowmaster exhaust system gained some peak HP, too.

In the Racing car results I mentioned, Flowmaster has developed racing mufflers that don't loose HP and actually helped some racecars, not only run quieter, but gained a few HP, too!

But argue your claims/point with them.

I am not an exhaust engineer.
Just spouting a few items I've read and supplying phone numbers so you can check my sources to prove a point.
Free call, too.

Flowmaster, in Santa Rosa, is next/close to to Sears Point Race track.
That track has a drag strip and NASCAR style racing there.
Flowmaster has a building at it's facilites to test HP & Decible levels.

 

*sighs*

Man, forget what you read in those Hey-I'm-Paying-The-Advertisments-So-Tell-Them-My-Claims mags, and check out what REAL people have done on REAL cars with REAL drag strip testing.

Like I said, a particular flowmaster muffler might increase hp over a particular (do you REALLY think those 20+hp gains you see all over things are on ALL cars?) muffler, but running NO muffler will net you better results. No exhaust is the best exhaust. period.

But enough. I posted mearly because I'm tired of all the BS surrounding exhaust. You've got your opinions (and evidently flowmaster's), and I've got the facts. Leave it at that.

 

You've got your opinions (and evidently flowmaster's), and I've got the facts. Leave it at that.

No not correct at all.
I've read enough of the test from various magainzes at various times and the results spoke for themselves.
Don't forget Borla and few more manufactures from the Circle Track roundy round folks, too.
Those manufactures will also back up the claims I've read about.

I have a flowmaster product on one of my 5 rides.
I don't like the muffler, too noisy.

I also cannot "totally dispute" what you've said about magazine writers and advertisers.

My friend knows Vic Edelbrock.
He isn't too impressed with their products/performance/claims.
I, on the other hand, am very impressed by their market place pressence.

Yes, Edelbrock does feed the hand that publishes about them, but not exactly the way you do "think ya know".
I know the people/players (manufactures) and some writers for the Primedia organizations (which now owns those magazine titles I mentioned).
I almost worked for Vic's Daughter Cammee, who runs the advertising-publishing catalog/flyers side.

Give Flowmaster a call, tho.
If I could find Borla phone number in Oxnard, I'd offer their number, too.
I do know that many NASCAR muffler manufactures do advertise in Circle Track, back ad section.

Not in all instances are running mufflers bad for your ride or ET or winning position at the end of the race (if that track you race at requires mufflers on the race cars).

 

Wow..talk about a confusing argument. I don't know how exactly all the technical aspects of our motors operate so I couldn't say much about whether backpressure is needed or not...but I can partially agree with Doward on one fact that he said about why not to run bigger exhaust like that... When you're trying to breathe a lot of exhaust through a little pipe, it's got to stay all confined down and pressurized.. With it confined like that, the air's going to get some nice velocity moving out of the pipe. Now with a bigger system, like 3 in. or up...I figure if you're not putting out enough exhaust, the exhaust air is going to spread too thin and slow down.. Just my 2 cents..I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, just offering that...

 

You ever noticed that when they talk about how much horsepower a part can produce, it is usually tested on the largest motor, usually a 5.7 so they can say so and so produces 25 horsepower over stock when most other motors my only see half of that.

What ever a manufacturer claims you can gain by using thier product - I take that number and divide it by 2. I would rather be pessimistic about horsepower gains than optimistic.

 

2? Try 4! Lol, you seen K&N advertise 20 hp gains from a filter? Yeah, on what motor, a worked 502??!

 

Exactly... a worked 502, super high flowing everything... vs a BONE STOCK CHEVY OEM filter.

That's how they do it. Make it so that their product's stock version is the weakest possible link, to show how 'superior' their product is.

 

Again,
No.
The test involved a late 80's early 90's F Body car, along with several othr "new car products" at time of test (Ford, GM, foreign cars).
The test they mention in the ads published is dealing with a late model F Body from the early 90's when new.
GM NEVER issued a 502 in street legal usage for late model car, so your comment is moot.
Call K & N they're in Riverside, CA 800-858-3333

Here is their ad copy from the 8/94 issue of Musclecar Review
"OFF LIKE A ROCKET"
Premium launching performance is your w/K & N filtercharger(circle R) air filter! Pulling crisp, clean air thru your engine. Filtercharger delivers the extra horsepower you need for superior performance The washable/reusable Filtercharger brings you:
*Up to TWICE the air flow
*UP TO 15 extra horsepower
*Exclusive Miliom Mile Warranty (which I've used & it works!)
*Street Legal in all 50 states
Put in a High-Flow Filtercharger today... and hang on for the ride of your life.

Incidentially, having dealt with legalalities in advertising copy writing, their ad stands up to my standards of approval.
They make a claim and have backed it up and the wording is correct.
I used to deal with the Honda ATC episode with the owners doing stupid pet tricks and Honda picking up thier tab. Along with alcohol & children toys products & their ad copy & legalities.

But argue your point to K & N, it's a free call to their engineers.
They take lunch breaks at noon (pst), no calls.

 

Ok I put on a high flow converter, and I LOST TRQ, how o I dow, I used to be able to chirp 3rd GEAR!, Now I can barely get 2nd to cut loose. Do not tell me ALL engine hate backpressure, cause its simply NOT TRUE. Low flow engines LIKE back pressure, it HOW THEY MAKE THEIR POWER.

Now Am I saying they like it to where they barely flow? NO, use common sense, but MY engine, even with some mods HATES MY HIGH FLOW CATCO.

 

Then I'd take a look into that 'hi flow' catco. Or hey, even better, eliminate the cat, and put in a pipe of the same ID. You will make more power! I'm not spouting this out of no where, people. I'm talking years of drag strip running, thousands of hours of various people's testing.

No matter how you cut it, the optimal setup is that the air needs to flow in, and back out with the same rate as it came in at. An engine is nothing more than a giant air pump. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 cylinder, or 16 cylinder, the principle is the same, I assure you.

Back to the cat, just how smoothly does it flow? Or even better, did you think that perhaps your previous cat was holding the exhaust just enough to equalize the intake to the exhaust, and perhaps now, with the hi flow cat, the entire exhaust is a bit over done?

Increase your intake. I'm betting - odds are - you're simply not pulling as much air as your exhaust can handle now. No doubt you've got headers now (seeing as how you make them! )

 

When a manufacturer says you can gain up to 15 bhp, the oppertune words being "up to," most of us just see the 15 and assume we will gain 15 bhp on our engine. All I'm saying is that we see the gain of 15 bhp and often ignore the up to part.

 

Ok, and just to prevent my having to argue with everyone -

Explain the physics behind trying to get as much air as possible into your engine, and then holding it, to make power?

 

I'm not arguing with you, I was just explianing my retard logic, which some people seem to share. As you probably already know, I don't care about what parts will gain bhp. I am concerned, however, if a part steals some bhp from me.


If you think about it, an engine is just a complicated air pump, so airflow is an important issue.

 

Sorry, that wasn't pointed specifically at you D... It's an open question, to anyone.

 

I kind of figured that, but I had say something to be sure. There was once a time when I thought those Borla intercooled exhaust tips produced some power. Man, that was just stupid logic. I have them on my exhaust now because I just like the design, and they were stainless steel and I got them 50% off. It's a better improvement over the raw tailpipe exit, although I'm not to keen on anything that adds more weight to my car.

 

LOL - yeah, but hey, you gotta do what you feel is right.

So, nobody's got an answer yet?

 

ok, well thanks for all the info u guys helped alot. Oh and my tips are 3" and ya there is a diffrence. i am goin to get working on the tune up now, thanks again!

 

You do need some backpressure to run the egr system. I have a high flow cat with 2.5 pipes to a dynomax super turbo with 12inch long 4inch tips just to amplify the nasty tone a little. However if anyone knows of a good way to get rid of the muffler and straight pipe it so i can still have th tips let me know

 

You do need some backpressure to run the egr system.

Explain, please

 

this is really funny!!!!!!!!!!:sillylol: :sillylol: :sillylol: :sillylol:

I'll support both sides:

Engine is just a big air pump. air goes in, goes boom, pushes some pistons down, goes out exhaust. The more air you allow in it, better/custom cai/ram air, the better able you need to be able to expell that air. This is where bigger is better

HOWEVER

our street engines are not designed to totally work this way. If the exhaust is too efficient, the motor will loose power. this happens durring overlap (the exhaust valve is open to let exhaust air out & the intake valve open to let in new charge). If the exhaust is too free flowing, it will take a more than desired amount of that intake charge with it. having that less than anticipated air/fuel mix will produce less power. The answer is backpressure this will prevent too much of that intake mixture from escaping the combustion chamber, and thus loosing power.

 

Technically, that's over scavanging, often caused when you use headers that are too big for your application. Headers used in conjunction with too big of a cam will cause the same problem (I believe I already made mention of that :P)

Optimally, you'd want the exhaust to expel at the close to the rate of air intake. (yes, I know technically that's not true, as some of the mass of the intake charge is lost as heat/energy - Rules of Conservation apply here)

With our stock manifolds on the 60º, from what I've seen, are anything but performance oriented. They are the weak link in any exhaust setup, unless you happen to toss $150 + s&h CHC's way, and he'll make you some headers...

Besides, even if you overscavange, it's not a huge deal. Step down to a cam with less overlap. Discount Auto/Advance Auto has a nice cam - 204/214 @ .050", with 51º overlap - .420"/.443", IIRC...

 

Let me clairify "backpressure" for everyone.

When you have a basic streetcar with a long catback system running all the way to the rear of the car, the exhaust gases will cool dramatically over that length- so the longer the pipes, the more they cool and slow down.

Here's the fine line: Larger pipe diameter increases flow, but longer pipes cool the gases and slow in down and hurt flow. Going with too large of a pipe diameter over a great length will cause backpressure because the gases will slowdown and restrict flow more than a pipe that is slightly smaller. The smaller diameter pipe will allow the gases to remain hotter and escavate faster giving better flow. But again, too small of a diameter will ofcourse raise backpressure because of reduced flow. Every y-pipe increase has to be married to the primary pipes and engine flow based on length of exhaust. Exhausts are built differently based on whether you want a torque motor(lowend) for towing purposes or a high reving motor for racing applications.

Low end torque is increased mildly with a little more backpressure, however, top end will be hurt

So in conclusion, if you want better performance you should find a way to both increase pipe diameter and shorten the final exhaust length together. This is why all race cars runwide open headers whenever possible. Alot of types of racing require certain db restrictions for noise levels, this is why you will sometimes see baffle systems on racecars.

 

woot woot... good explaination man

 

[Look of sudden understanding falls across face]

OHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

I understood the reasoning on why cars need some backpressure, I just couldn't explain it.

 

'Bout time the Exhaust Engineer pulled into the station.

 

I was sitting off shore scuba diving for four days 40 scallops & 16 lobsters.