KED85

Someone give me a 12 guage sawed off shot gun!
Double barrel!

Yesterday, driving along, calm as can be, dies, my Firebird dies again!!!
I was doing about 30MPH, cough cough cough, sputter sputter sputter puffph!
No spark.
I break out my tools and remove another dead Ignition Control Module (ICM).
Luckily Autozone is right down the street.

BUT WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?

It's all stock ignition, nothing fancy at all!
YET I'VE GONE THRU FOUR MODULES BY NOW!
One brand Niehoff
One brand AC Delco (made in Singapore!)
One Borg Warner
Back to the AC Delco (it tested good!)
The AC Delco died (yesterday) then back to a Niehoff from Autozone.
I use the "white grease supplied" with package
I use Permatex Dielectric grease on base
I want to suspend it above the base of the distibutor, YET I'M TOLD DON'T AS THE METAL BOTTOM OF THE ICM MUST MAKE CONTACT WITH THE DISTRIBUTOR BASE FOR IT TO OPERATE (It's a ground?).

Someone give me a clue for this mystery.
Thanks.

PS a Performance brand is outta the question, as that's a mail order item & I really doubt it'd make any difference.
I JUST WANT ONE TO LAST AS LONG AS THE ONE IN MY BLAZER HAS (try 211,500 miles!)!
HELP!

85SportCoupeto89RS

Has it gotten any funny amps to fry it? Thats what I can only think of at the moment. Maybe just maybe but did you look at any other 3rd gens yesterday? I'm feeling scared cause today I looked at an 88 IROC and 91 RS vert today. I just know something will go wrong tommorow with my SC.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Replace the coil. Also check the cap for carbon tracking. If the spark ends up going through the cap and finding a ground inside the distributor it will also take out the ICM.

As for mounting the ICM, yes the base plate and mounting screws are a ground. The ICM can be remote mounted by providing a proper ground and some heat sinking. These buggers do run hot.

RBob.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Glad to see you ked, I havent seen you around in a while.

ICM and Coil was problems with my camaro you were helping me with. I now know the feeling of an ICM dying

KED85

A friend suggested I keep buying flaky ICM's.
WISH I COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TO REMOTE MOUNT IT!
Yet, I BELIEVE, by soldering to the bottom, I'd create heat source to kill it instantly.....

Damn ICM seems to be so hot it melts the "goop"!
Cap, new Borg Warner with brass interal contacts.
This also happened with my previous Accel cap, too.
Coil is remote mount and works great, it's an Accel.
Last time ICM died, I was running high revs.
This time it died, I was literally doing about 1500RPM's.

IF an engine over heats (engine water temp) does this increase the ICM "kill factor"?

I only wish I could remote mount it as a Ford distributor does, by external attachment.

Yeah, my Computer is back operating, really was a drag awaiting another "memory" from another source.
Previous computer memory installed did some damage to my computer.
Wish I knew more about how to "really fix" home computers. To busy to learn. I'm learning by trial by fire!

TomP

RBob, nice! I considered that a while ago, but nobody had any answers for me from the tech board. Seems that module should be far away from any heat; and maybe given it's own heat sink. (I even thought of hanging a heat sink below the distributor base.) What I'd be concerned about though is the wire distance from the pick-up coil to the module- can it be "too long"? Would certain things in the engine compartment need to be avoided, so a magnetic field doesn't interfere with the pick-up coil's wires?

Offbeat question- is the distributor base warped? Maybe the module isn't making full 100% contact with the bottom of the module?? I doubt it, but...

Have you checked the wires going into the distributor? Maybe one of them is flaky, and every time you replace the distributor, you move the wires enough so they work? Could the connector be bad? What about the harness from the module to the coil? Have you tried other coils "immediately" on the car after you see "no spark"?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Is that coil made in Mexico? Should be a sticker on it with location of manufactor. If so, circular can it. The insulation on the windings break down and take out the ICM.

With the problems you are having I'd replace it anyway.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I have mounted a finned heat sink on the bottom side of the distributor base. It is located directly below the ICM and of approximately the same size. I use two 6-32 flat head screws from the top into threaded holes on the heat sink. This way the screw heads are flush with the top of the distributor base plate (use a counter sink on the holes). I may be able to get a picture of this.

If you remote mount the ICM need to have the pickup wires twisted together (a twisted-pair). Keep them away from the high voltage plug wires. A remote ICM definitely requires a heat sink. As the ICM runs hotter then the distributor the distributor is the heat sink. The way GM designed the ICM the die for the coil power switch is mounted directly to the bottom plate.

As for the ground I am not sure if both screw holes are tied together. But by mounting the ICM on a block of finned aluminum and then grounding the block, there will be a gound just as it were mounted in the distributor.

RBob.

KED85

I certainly would enjoy seeing a pic of this idea, Rob.
I will check my Accel coil.
Tom, when it died, I was about 3 yards from a railroad crossing!
I am recovering from a sprained shoulder, and I was fortunate to have a bit of a downhill to get me into a space off the street to repair my ride, this last time.
NOW when I had my car at home, all I could THINK OF DOING was pull out a spare module, I had it tested (showed good), applied dielectric grease, down onto the distributor base and off I went.
My distb. base warped?
No idea.
Right now, car runs, just trying to find the real cause.

How can one create an electrical spike, to short out the Ignition Control Module?

The wires to the module are good.
My Circle item on distb. is new (about 2 years old), wiring from the module is also good.
And those two sets of plugs/wires out, seems to be far enough away from anything else.
Since it is raining I'm not into dashing under the hood to check for anything suspicious.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I got pics. The spare distributor was also modified. First though, I measured the grounding on a stock GM module. The two mounting holes/eyelets, the base, and the G pin are all tied together. So mounting it to a heatsink and running a ground wire from the heatsink to the engine would work.

On to the pics! This is on an 8 cyl distributor so it may look a tad different. The outer dark areas are just holes for the ICM mounting screws ot clear. You can see the ends of the heatsink mounting screws protruding from the bottom. I said 6-32, they are actually 4-40's.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Second pic. Shows a side view to get an idea of the thickness and profile.

RBob.

KED85

NOW TO FIND THAT PIECE OF ALUMINUM!
I like the idea, as it requires only longer screws.
External mounting of the ICM is an "extreme" idea.
I feel the external mount wiring issue would more a problem to tackle.

Gotta get my truck running so I can get this Firebird away from my Wife for longer than 30 seconds!
Hey Stop raining would ya!!!!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Had to come back to this post . Karl, above you mentioned how it looked like the ICM goop had melted. I've seen the same with the silicone dielectric grease. It melts then runs all over the top of the base plate. Even clogging the vent screens.

I've also seen what you have mentioned before about the white heatsink compound. This is where it shrinks, then cracks and leaves gaps.

Having thought about all this I considered using the silicone sheeting. This is a fiberglass reinforced silicone material used between electronic parts and heatsinks. It also supplies an electrical isolation (used in place of mica and the compound).

I figured that with the additional thickness it would not conduct heat as well as having the module directly on the base plate (w/compound). So I didn't want to chance it.

Which brings me to another idea: glue the module down with clear RTV. Why not? Silicone RTV conducts heat very well, and won't run, shrink or crack. The RTV doesn't stick great. It will still be possible to pry a dead module off. Just be sure to use a thin coat and slowly tighten the ICM down. This will allow excess to be squeezed out.

Any thoughts on this?

RBob.

KED85

HI Rob,
I will have to clean my distb base much better as your comment on the heat vent screens leads me to suspect....
I coulda sworn the dielectric grease acted like RTV stuff, as it went on so thick and gooey.
Just hope this all holds up until i can attack this problem better.
When the module fired other day I just went and got new part, more dielectric grease, layed it on, tightened down.
I never thought about the heat vent holes!
I'll bet they are clogged over!
I have to hit an electric parts store for that heat sink idea.
What ya used are the "same" screws, only longer to attach the heat sink to underside distb base, correct?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The mounting screws for the ICM are the originals. There are holes in the added heat sink so that they just pass through.

The heat sink is first attached to the distributor, then the ICM mounted. To mount the heat sink I drilled two small holes through the base plate. Then counter sunk them. I used flat head screws (V shaped head). This way the screw tops are flush with the top of the base plate.

I did thread the heat sink (4-40). Nuts and lock washers could be used instead. OK, have a pic of screw style.

RBob.

KED85

EXCELLENT RESPONSE ROB
MANY MANY THANKS!
Now to get the damn car away from my Wife so I can do things.

rezinn

Come on guys.. if the ignition module is getting too hot and dying, why doesn't everyone have this problem? It's 100 degrees where I live, and my car doesn't exactly run "cold."

Do you really think that heat sink is going to make any difference? A heat sink absorbs heat and relies on a moving medium to remove heat from it. So what is going to remove heat from your heat sink? Hot engine air? Not likely. It'll still absorb into everything just the same as before.

KED85

For my situation, I believe I may have covered over the heat escape vent holes with excess dielectric grease.
I have not problem ADDING an extra item to remove the distb base heat.
Meaning, it can't hurt.
IF I can find a spare heat sink, I'll go this route.
IF I could easily adapt longer wires, I'd remote mount this damn ICM as Ford did on their distributors.
Notice my location it's also in SoCal.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

These modules run right on the edge of frying. Look at it this way, the distributor which is at a high temperature (from engine heat) is the heat sink for the module. That is how hot the ICM runs.

Try running your module w/o the silicone heat sink compound and let me know how long it lasts. It won't be long. Temperature wise that is how close to the edge they run.

Research the problems that both Hond* and For* have had with their ICM's. Same deal, they run hot, very hot. So what is wrong with a bit more heat sinking? Will it hurt?

RBob.

KED85

Whenever my ICM has decide to go bye, it wasn't exactly the hottest SoCal day.
Other day was about 60*+ & I was cruising at about 1500 RPM's.
Literally going slow & it just went.
Stupidest thing going on my ride right now is this Ignition Control Module dying issue.
I REALLY worry about it with my Wife driving my Son when they in the car.
I can't count out any extra help/solutions to remove excess heat from this distb base.
I really enjoy this Firebird of mine.
My Firebird is a fun car for LA traffic condition.
Really sucks when it just ups & dies.
Funny my 1974 Corvette at 140K original miles, just keeps moving along.
You should hear the clutch pack in the rear diff clack in & out.
Yeah, I put in the proper gear lube.
I have to rebuild the rear diff, entirely now.
And add oil for the morning puff of blue.
My Firebird is so refined a ride, compared to the Old Vette.
Plus in LA traffic, you can see traffic, easily.
My Old Vette, is difficult to see to change lanes safely.
I can't wait to get my truck running so I can put down the Firebird for fixing things.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Karl, just had a thought: can you swap the coil & distributor from the truck into the Firebird? This would then eliminate a lot of variables. You'd also be able to work on the Firebird distributor on your time schedule.

It's funny how you mentioned needing to work around the wife's car schedule. I have the same problem with my wife's car. She wants this and that done but won't let me have the car! So I get up early Sat morning to work on it. Once it's apart she is amiable to using one of the other vehicles

RBob.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Same here, mine wants it done now and fast. But is unwilling to drive one of the others.

The s10 distribs, ICM is not the same. Would have to do wire hacking to make it work.

OEM coils are the same, but I belive he has put non-oem-replacements in all of his rides.

KED85

Right now we have two rides running
My old Corvette
My Wife is NEVER ALLOWED TO TOUCH THAT CAR AGAIN
(last time she did, she smashed the 2 year made center grille. I took that money to replace it from her engangement ring fund, all $150 of it. My last grille-she smashed this one-I had paid $35!).
My Wife can barely see over the long Corvette hood (her parking style is by "feel"!!).
And she also discovered the accelerator (an old Corvette is still faster than a 1968 6 cylinder 2 speed Camaro!).
And the Fireird I let her drive all the time.

Right now, I was gonna go out, remove the new module, clean base with carb cleaner (I've never done that detail!-Hey I learn!!).
The coil, I believe is fine.
Both Blazer & Firebird use Accel products.
I looked at my Firebird coil & saw no foreign mark stamping, yet, I'll examine the box that item came in.

I really believe I've covered over the vent holes with the goop ozzing out, due to heat, etc.

My Blazer, being a 85 FEDERAL CARB'D version has no computer stuff in this vehicle at all.
Distb. swap would work (fitment), yet, as mentioned, wiring nighmare.
I hope I discover alot of stuff while properly cleaning this Firebird distb.

When my Blazer is running (& Wife is safe driving it-teething pains from an engine swap, ya know), I'm gonna remove the Firebird distb and go back over this item again.
In the meantime, where's the carb cleaner!
And I've got to score some heatsink type stuff.

I'll pass what I find out......

85SportCoupeto89RS

Ah, I'm glad im only dating and not married yet OUCH Karl, I agree don't let her touch the vette again parking by the feel of it, I would be paranoid as heck if I was riding while that was going on.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

how about heat sinks from computer chips? some even have fans, just gotta make sure they get correct voltage. And I know those chips heat up big time

KED85

I was gonna "score" a heat sink from old Stereo equipment (hoping!!).
I agree on the computer angle.
YET a fan blowing on my distb is slightly "too much".
I look at it this way...
AM I REALLY THE ONLY ONE GOING THRU THESE DAMN THING LIKE melting Ice Cubes?

As I looked at my coils I use (both Accels, different versions, same things) I really see no stamp that claims made in USA or anywhere...... Even checked my boxes the Firebird on came in, No country of Origin stamping/printing
The ICM's I obtain are "cast stamped" made in USA (2-Niehoff, 1-Borg Warner), one AC from Singapore (AC Delco that country of origin says so and so does box).

I'm hoping the good cleaning of the base I did yesterday, with rain pouring onto my back (Wife comes out... "I want to use the car to go for a milk shake, are you done yet?" (Not a hurry up & get inside it's raining on you!)
Fu(k VD Day!
I made HER sleep on couch last night!
And she's sleeping there to night, too, if she keeps up her attitude!

MDv6man

Way to keep her in her place!

KED85

She's there tonight too.
But also due to cold I got working in the rain.
I'm up cause I awoke due to sneezing.
I did more to also keep my engine running cooler (so I hope!).
I have instrument gauge cluster to be installed (Don't laugh to hard Tom!-wait till ya have a kid).
I installed a metal house rain deflector under the front nose, to shove more LOW SPEED air into the radiator.
When I had this last ICM die, I just got off freeway and was on side streets cruising, then cough sputter puffuagh!
Previous one died passing someone at 70 MPH on freeway.
I don't know, just trying alot of ideas.

I loved lying on cold cement with my already had cold.
I can't wait to fix the front nose body panels & install the instrument gauge panel.
I still have past notes on way to convert idiot lights (& driver) to instrument gauge cluster.
We'll see.
Wife was kinda nicer, tho.
My two year old, he just showers ya with love & wrestling with Daddy.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

those two year olds a great, until they start taking what they drink from their sippy cup and decide to water your shirt with it.

But it's all good

TomP

RBob, nice job! Many thanks for the pics!!

Karl, you can check out surplus electronics stores online for big heat sinks; back in '92 or so I got a huge SOB heat sink from http://www.allelectronics.com (before the internet was in anyone's mind) for the back of my Uniden Pro810 base station CB. Heh, I should blow the dust off that thing and see if it still works. The thing's a beast; regular channels and SSB; talked the skip to Alaska once during a blizzard.

KED85

SSB;
talked the skip to Alaska once during a blizzard

Alright I'll bite..
SSB? Secret Service Babes?

talked the skip...
Like AM radio at night time, bouncing off the ioneshpere (sp?)?

Only time I ever used a CB radio was going thru Maryland (can you say POLICE STATE!) during college days ('77-'78) of the 55 MPH CASH COW FOR THE MARYLAND STATE COFFERS!

Right now, I got the car running and I HOPE by throughly cleaning the distb base & those forgotten vent holes, the ICM will cooperate, live long & I'll prosper.
Tom thanks for the link.

89V6FBIRD

Karl, you know All Electronics is on Oxnard a little west of Kester, on the south side? You should really take a trip there. Good stuff. I think it's across the street from your AC Delco guy.

KED85

THANKS FOR THE LOCAL STORE TIP!

I see the console still for sale.
I recently saw, JUST THE CONSOLE FLIP LID, sold on ebay,
for $45!

WHY AREN'T YA EVER AROUND WHENEVER I BREAK DOWN LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!

KED85

If ya haven't seen my other thread,
I GIVE CREDIT FOR SOLUTION TO................



Has it gotten any funny amps to fry it? Thats what I can only think of at the moment.
85SportCoupeto89RS
I THANK YOU I THANK YOU I THANK YOU

AND RBOB for his thoughts comments clues also stating voltage problem causing to fry ICMs and clean the damn distributor base better!!



It was my ALTERNATOR BEING STUCK ON CHARGE & FRYING THE DAMN ICM'S

I just spoke/visited Dan (CaliCamaro) at the dealership he works at.
I told him about the problem and solution.
Dan (CaliCamaro) said that is the most unusal solution to this problem. He never heard of an alternator causing my problem. Yet upon our discussion makes lots of sense for my problem.
AND HIS 5 SPEED SWAP (car had auto!) LOOKS SWEET!!!!!!!!WORKS GREAT!!!!!!!!

MEANING I REALLY HAVE SOLVED THIS PROBLEM FOR GOOD.
What a concept!!

I drove Wife to look at new vehicles today (Chevy Ventura, Chevy Astro, Buick Rendevous - $20-$25K range, that can buy me the NEW 1956 Corvette I want!).

Did 80MPH for about 30 miles, mostly up hills. She now hops into the car, again, a bit more secure feeling.

Onto oil leak (oil filter housing bolt swap) and find another yard radiator. This radiator is slowing leaking and is staying slowy leaking.
Oil leak fix first, tho.
I need to change oil, bad.
Thanks all for help with this.
NO ONE ELSE GAVE ME THE REAL ANSWER, JUST SOLD ME A PART TO SWAP IN. YOU GUYS GREAT!

Project: 85 2.8 bird

maybe look into 98-2001 low milage grand prix/montes. can be had for $18 and under, w/warranties. that way you save the bird for you

KED85

Are you MARRIED YET?????
How to deal with wife?
let her THINK she's getting what she want.......
String it out,
to save sanity!
No, She gets "what she wants".
I have 5 rides, three motorcycles
and she is allowing us to keep her old 1968 Camaro.
Selling that 1968 pays for the van, easy.
Meaning
She paid $600 for that, it's her first & only ever car.
That's how much current market value for 1968 Camaro and this is only rising.
Want to know how much my 1967 RS/SS Camaro 350 4-speed Convertible is worth? (This car is a 2-5% made of the 1967 years cars produced, I have documented 396 parts on this ride, yet this is a documented 350 powered ride)
She's allowing me to keep that too.
I can buy about 4 of those cars and have change left over for that 1967 Camaro.
She gets what she wants.
I really want a Rendevous, tho.
Hey that Ventura has our 60* ENGINE WITH ALL THE GOOD STUFF!!
Damn it's packed in a minivan.

85SportCoupeto89RS

LOL, every relationship I have been in the g/f always gets what she want's goes where she wants or I get a long nagging on how im trying to control her life Gosh cant win no matter what

TomP

LOL! You were close; SSB is Single SideBand, gives two extra "channels" on each CB channel; lower sideband and upper sideband, for a total of 128 channels. You're allowed higher power on SSB-12 watts instead of 4 watts for regular channels, so you can talk further. Ever listen to the CB (normal channels) and hear odd squawking that sounds like people speaking? It's probably from someone talking on single sideband. It's kinda like the "coded" channels on a FRS or GMRS 2-way radio.

And you got it for talking the skip; but usually, the best results come from bouncing the signal off clouds...

Someone remind me to turn that thing on when I get home.

PimpRod92RS

May be a little late to reply to this, but did you check your internals of your distributor while you had the cap off? If your pickup is rusty, might have to replace it/the whole distributor. Your story with the ICMs sounds similar to mine, blowing about 6 different ones of various brands before finding the whole distributor was my problem. I simply loosened the hold down bolt, after removing all the wires of course, carefully pulled the old one out so the oil pump shaft didnt come with it, bought a new one complete with an ICM for about 150 bux. I put it in, got it correctly timed, and its runnin good. Might want to buy a new distributor, worked for me, and I have a bone stock ignition setup myself.

KED85

It was my ALTERNATOR BEING STUCK ON CHARGE & FRYING THE DAMN ICM'S

I was the one that wrote the thread on how to rebuild your distributor.

My Wife took car, by herself, today for a 50 mile roundtrip.
She came home smiling and safe.
It was worth the aggrivation just to know she was more comfortable in the car, again.
Thanks for the thought, tho
Rebuilding distributor was one of the best things I ever did to this car.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead. I am hoping rbob or ked85 will reply. Anyway putting the final touches on my 355 before it goes into my car. Is heating sinking the module "enough" for a high performance application OR should I just externally mount it & heatsink it?

If I externally mount it can I twist the wires together my self or should I go to an electronics supply shop and get special wire w/ a shielded wire to use as a ground between the dist and ICM? Should I not exceed 12" of wire when going this route?

Thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately, KED85 is no longer with us. He passed away a number of years ago.

I like just heat sinking the module. Works OK, and as long as GM ignition modules are used they last a long time.

If you go remote, can shield the twisted pair and tie the shield to ground at one end only (distributor end is best). Most important is to keep those wires away from other electrical wires. Note that these are the pickup coil to ICM wires.

GM did a remote ICM in some trucks. Don't recall which years/models, actually, I think it was the Vortec engines. With the pickup in the timing cover.

RBob.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

I think I am going to just try a heat sink on the distributor and see how it works out Rbob. If it fails, then I will try externally mounting it. Yes, AFAIK the vortec trucks had an externally mounted ICM with a heat sink. I wonder if the vortec module would work on the TBI/TPI stuff...

TomP

The Vortec v6's? That's worth checking out, they used the same dist cap as our 2.8's did.

Boy this message brings back some memories

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Vortec ICMs don't have the EST/BYPASS line. So they won't work correctly on our systems.

RBob.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I'm pretty sure on the Vortec, those are simply what could be called an "ignitor." IIRC the PCM does all of the ignition timing control, with the crank and cam senors connected directly to the PCM.

86T/A_Ram_Air

Could be the pick up coil doing wierd stuff under the cap and frying the ICM or you have a wire grounding out somewhere. you could always replace the whole distributor from autozone for like 100 bucks and it comes with a new pick up and ICM on it with heatsinks. Oh yeah and its warranteed for a year

And just as point of reference the LT1 ICM is mounted to the driver side head and while they do go they usually last a while and I am pretty sure the head gets hotter than your distributor so I doubt heat is your problem. I think you have a pick up coil or a electrical short somewhere, which could very well be in the pick up coil since the ICM gets its reference signal from that