sorry guys, all of the stuff i said above was said as if the throttle was WOT.

Of course a car at 4500rpm WOT would be moving more air than a car at 4500rpm HOF. (its a no brainer)

I dont know about you guys... but whenever i rev my engine, i always rev it at WOT... this in fact, with spin the turbo and make alot of boost.

If you had the same exact engine with the same exact turbo setup and intake setup and both engines were at WOT (or HOF, etc), they would move the same amount of air no matter if they were in gear or not.

I can see where you guys are saying that if the engine isnt under load, it would not make boost because when you are in neutral you dont normally go WOT, and when you are in gear you normally open the throttle more, so that you will go fast. But the turbo not making the same boost is because of the fact that you do not have your throttle at the same position, NOT because there is load on the engine.

in a way the wastegate does messure load
it runs to a source the intake usually that sees vacuume/boost

generally more load on the motor the close you get to atmospheric pressure in your intake

on a turbo car though they excede atmospheric pressure in the intake (hence boost) and so the more load you get the higher your boost will get
they limit the amount of boost your motor is able to put out though but still through a mesurement of how much load is on the motor

if the throttle position = load, then yes this would be true. But Throttle Position does not = load.

Generally speaking, the more load you have on the engine (or the faster you wanted to go) the more you would press down the gas. You could RELATE TP to engine load... but they are NOT the same thing.

first thing I want to say is d<x>amn you for getting in the way of my run of post here


secondly that is part of what load does
allows you to put open the throttle for the same rpms


though with your arguement htere is one flaw

even if you hold the car at WOT chances are your not going to see much for boost still cause you aren't giving the turbo enough time to fully spool into boost mode
sure might make a pound or two
but not much due to lack of time

if the rev limiter kicks in you wont make alot of boost. Correct. But i dont know about you guys, but i can keep my engine hovering right around 5.5k in neutral... thus not activating the rev limiter.

My freind with the Turbo TBird can do it too, (i learned it from him) he makes like 6psi of boost by doing that. (same as when he is in gear driving.)

load is generally messured by how much vacuume is going through a motor

speed density systems are really good at showing that

under no load you have less then atmospheric pressure (high vacuume)
under high load your are getting close to atmospheric pressure (low vacuume
on boosted motors high load can actually cause you to go into boost (more air going through the motor and time for the turbo to spool) (more then atmospheric pressure)

true it isn't a way to messure ok the motor has 500lbs of load on the motor but you can still use it as a mesurement to tell WHEN the motor does have some sort of load

exactly what RX said about the time factor.

also the size of the turbo has A LOT to do with what we've been discussing...in fact that's the biggest factor in what we've be discussing....

I assume you're experience is with small little turbos which is fine...I did some more reading about little turbos and you very will be right since the turbo is so small. I'm used to dealing with T3 turbos'(not huge) and waaaaaay bigger where there isn't a chance in hell you're building boost in neutral.

that one I'm not sure about

would almost depend on what type of rev limiter though I would think

fuel cut

no wouldn't make more boost and could possibly blow the motor from running lean

ignition cut you could stand a chance of making more boost
with the ignition cut for a rev limiter you would have lots of unburnt fuel hitting the exhuast. since most rev limiters based on ignition cut cycle the ignition you would get a fire on fire fire fire on and so forth.
with all that unburnt fuel hitting the exhuast then being fired you would create nice pressure before the turbo which in turn would make boost by spooling the turbo faster

almost like a anti lag device in a messed up way

lots of anti lag devices either retard the ignition timing causing lots of fuel to be ignited AFTER it leaves the cylinder creating pressure

another method is to inject more fuel into the motor causing raw fuel in the exhuast or having a second set of injectors in the exhuast to create burn outside the cyl

if I remember right the stock turbo on a RX7 (second gen without the twins) the turbo is larger then a T3 but smaller then a T4
not too sure on that though

but the a/r has a dual scroll system in it so on the hot side is .4 then has a valve that opens up making it 1.0

And i don't know about you, but 5500 rpm (or 6k) in neutral with my 2.8 sure as hell ain't WOT. :sillylol:

mine either.

well when you go WOT -> Let off gas a little, WOT it kinda is.

Besides, his turbo spools up at only ~2000 rpm, and his max boost pressure is set to like 6 psi, so it only takes till like 3000 rpm for him to hit full boost.

6#'s? That's about a third of what I was running Can't wait until the motor comes back...oh my I can't wait

Me think the forced induction systems are getting mixed up. With a blower you see pressure under no load.

Back to topic.

Did the parts come in yet????

Ive got my eye on a V6 RS, super clean and they think the engine is dead....................... Its not but I aint going to tell em. Finish this project so I can copy it for heavens sake!

lol, i bought my car for 100$ from my freind because he thought the tranny was dead.

sucks for him.

he is comming over today to help me pull my engine too.

Am I the only one to see this ..arent most of the thunderbirds supercharged??
supercharging 6psi = ok (seems like a stock thunderbird SC)

how old is this thunderbird?
year model?

eh don't know much about thunderbirds

but yeah supercharger would make more sense with that

before Ford switch the Tbird body style in 89 they had a turbo coupe for a few years prior. I assume that's what he's talking about

So Lee, what year is the bird you keep referencing?

I have a turbocharged vehicle. 2.0L turbo with a t-25/external wastegate at 10psi and...
It DOESN'T create ANY boost while reving/ holding the throttle at 4k.
at Idle boost is at negative.. When u rev or hold at a certain rpm it goes to 0psi.

Sorry I blasted that into your post but when I hear the word physics it sets me lose. Our engines ad the turbo project could not work without them and it is the best way to learn about engines.

'hyperdimensional physics' is kinda like dodo do do, dodo do do [twlight zone style] but it is a really neat read and should be looked into more. If the local colledge had a 'hyperdimensional physics 101' class I would take it.

Matt

My 2.0L Turbo doesnt make boost at WOT in neutral.
What would it matter, wot or not? In gear and not in WOT u still produce boost. But you dont in neutral.

lol man thats my goal, is to make as much boost at WOT in part or neutal. Boy i would beat everyone if i could do that



Doward:
Cool to see its comin along, and good luck with it. Can wait to see it finished

Well, I emailed the guy about the LT1 turbo kit just have to wait and see what happens

Matt, no problem on the physics stuff.. I absolutely love it! I haven't been in school for like a year now (out of HS and going into college this Fall) so I'm dying. I remember in Physics, Senior year, a friend of mine and I argued for 3 days with the teacher over a word problem involving a comet and whether or not it would hit the earth, if it were traveling at a certain velocity, a certain angle from the earth.

The answer was supposed to be that it does hit the earth on the 3rd day, but Nathan and I proved that to be FALSE under current (then) conditions, as the sun's gravity combined with the moons own influence would have pushed the comet just far enough to skip off the earth's atmosphere, given the comet's weight and velocity.

Our entire class hated Nathan and I!

***UPDATE***

Mandrel bends have arrived.

I swear to *** if I hear that phrase used one more time, I'm going to kill myself! I can't even begin to count how often I hear this line... Sorry to be off topic. No offense meant, Lee!

DAMN Doward... I've seen mandrel bent pipes that aren't as nicely mandrel bent as those! Those are awesome! Must've been a great shop that did them...

Looks good man

They're done under the Hooker name, by Holley... so I expected some good stuff back!

Ah....figures that J pipes would be common enough that you can just order them... Never seen mandrel bends that clean though...there's no damage to the pipe at all. All the mandrel bends I see, there's still pipe damage..they manage to dent them in....

As far as the T-bird turbo. YUK!! I fixed one to sell wasent impressed with the thing but it did get killer fuel economy.

We need to kill this idea boucing around here and now taking up thread space.

YOU CAN CREATE BOOST WITH NO LOAD! Ricers do it all the time. You manually take controll of the waste gate. Simple but not a good idea on a street driven car.

Doward, bends look good!

Can we expect to build a shrine in your honor this week?

Maybe... I got to get teh 10' pipe still, cut it all up, then have ti all welded back together

Maybe... gotta work on a bracket still, too!

. what does a wastegate do? i know what a blowout valv does.

well, I will say that I am dealing with Conquests right now.
Those mandrel pipes look nice, where ya get 'em? I get my stuff as Burnsstainless. Seem to have really good prices there.
I am making a 3" 304 stainless for one of my 'Quests for about 150, including everything. I know a guy at a shop that is eager to make it. But the tube is running me around 115.

It has the stock 12A right now (don't laugh RX, I know you know the puny thing it is) I am hoping however over the next 18 months to gradually step it up to a 20G (YEAH BABY! YEAH!) Maybe bigger it depends on how the MPI and header turn out. I am looking at each cyl. flowing massive air. The Cy will hold 13.85 Cu In. under NA mode. So imagine the flow numbers at 19 PSI+

Anyway, I am looking at around 450 Hp when I am eventually done.

Hey RX, question for ya, have you ever used the "Mega Squirt" comp?
It seems to be real popular with the "questers, and at just over 100 for a fully programable fuel ECU, ain't bad.

A waste gate weither internal, or external, will open a valve in the exhaust system that will allow allow exhaust gasses to bypass the turbo once the preset PSI is reached.

I have seen them "dump" raw exhaust into the down pipe, and into the open.

A wastegate and a BOV can be considered twins on seperate sides on the turbo. They both provide the same fuctions basically.

hey D,

you going to make this straight in the car or what?

I personally plan on using sch. 40 fittings to lay out the mainifold first to get all the pieces fitting right, then transfer to 304 SS.

no experience with the mega squirt fuel controller
very limited experience with a haltech that is about it


the only fuel controller my buds have used is a s-afc
then they got smart and bought haltech

and 20g or 20b?

and hey 12a can be one fast car with boost or a PP

Nope, those bends are straight 18ga mild steel. They aren't 302 SS, sorry. For one thing, it would have almost tripled the cost of my piping, and I'm doing this on a shoestring budget!

Now, if I decide to build a turbo kit for the fbody V6's, then I'll definetly have stainless steel tubing standard. No cheapness when I build anything for another person.

Sounds good Dowy I just might have to buy the kit from you if that much care goes in to it

EDIT: If you decide to sell any kits

I'm 99% certain I will. I've got the know-how, the R&D, and the time to build 'em.

What I don't have, is the actual working system - a real, live, 'See? Here it is. This is what it does, and it works!'

That'll change before July is over with. I'll get dyno results and all. Now, the funny thing is, is that the kits I'll be selling (if this works out well enough to warrant a kit) will be better than the prototype I'm building now. The kit will use a bigger, better turbo, a better BOV system, a better intercooler (full FMIC), better injectors, better quality piping, everything. I take pride in my work!

well hurry the hell up man!

i cant wait for this thing to be done. Its going to be funny when our little V6's are smoking 350's. (stock or mildly modified)

Hell, the 89 Formula 350 was only pushing 235hp, Dowards turbo setup will be pushing at LEAST that. Not to mention the lower wieght of a V6, better gas mileage, etc.

LOL well now that its taken me 3 days to read this thread im all for it. I was contemplating doing a turbo setup on my 3.1. Doward im going to have to talk to you later ot figureo ut what all your doing since i forgot half the stuff i just read......and hadda weed thorugh some pointless banter. Good Luck with it man.

When your done you gotta put up a how to of how you did it set by step.

When I started it, I figured on putting up a 'How To' but dang... this thing got really complicated, really quickly. I *could* do a massive How To, but then there'd be no point on building the kits... and see, the kits have a higher purpose.

My friend Adam (Vortex on allfordmustangs.com), myself, and a couple of our other car buddies, are working on building a full blown shop here in Ocala. With the extra $$ going into that, and better tooling for myself, I figure I could help out the markets that get very little attention (V6 Fbodies, V6 Stangs, that sort of thing) by building such things as turbo kits, custom headers (may not need to if we can get a guy in Pheonix to help us out!!!!) and custom, dyno-tuned chips. Custom tuned-port intake for the V6 and who knows what else we'll all come up with to build for our cars!

Maybe another STB like the Jamex one

Just so I don't feel left out I'm working on a deal to snag these

Downpipe

Wastegate

You've already got a turbo.... you don't count!

***UPDATE***

Got the 10' stick. Cutting up now, but daylight is running out! I'll post what I've got tonight, tho!

20G
But probly step to a super 16G first.

The car is quick, I will give it that. it runds 13.8@121.34 now. Thats with free/cheap mods.
When I get the 3 stage exhaust (making myself going 2 1/2 DP- 2 5/8 for 3-4 feet- then 2 3/4 to the real axle- then 3") I know I will be in the high 12's then. Gotta love flow dynamics, you increase sive over time and you increase velocity. Perfect for any car. And yes removing cat's, and muflers when I do it.
Considering it's going through 2 cats, and a 2 1/4 complete system now.

You sure about that one? Might want to rethink it there...

***Update***

Didn't get very far before night overtook me. MUCH more will be done tomorrow!!

*sighs* Poor girl hasn't been moved in over a month... it'll be worth it tho!

1D is done (the one one the exhaust cutter is on) 2D needs about 6.2" trimmed off it... here's the ol' girl now, looking perfectly miserable while daddy performs operations on her... I'm sorry hun!

yep and I have an even bigger one sitting here waiting to go on