ok, im new hear but im looking for some advice... i have an 86 2.8 liter, and you know what, im real close to junking the darn thing........

new starter, new batery, new cables, new maf, new tps.... new alt. ... all new secondary ign. new pickup coil, new coil, new module.... ***... still wont start.... new timing chain and gears... i think maybe the old chain was so loose that it skiped some teeth and the timing is fliped 180, when i try to get it to start, it just cranks but i mean, it sounds like there is no chance.... next time i am home will set it to TDC and try again, but what do u guys think? is the motor craped? or does she still have a chance? my one question that i would like awnserd is.... when i have #1 to TDC, and if the dampner is at least close to 0, (my idea is that even if the timing was off a lil it should still run.....) should i check/rotate the distibuter a ceirtain way??? thanks guys hope i didn't whine too much for you!!!

 

Put the right front piston to TDC, and if the balancer hasnt spun on the rubber mount, the mark should appear on 0 Timing.

Make sure the distrib was installed proper (I have had this prob many times). IIRC it should point towards the about 7pm mark when sitting on the engine from front of the car.

Even if timing chain did skip a tooth, you should have corrected all that when putting it back together.

Is the fuel pump runing, can you here it make the wrr noise from the back of the car? Whats fuel pressure at the rail?

Sounds like you should have spark with no problem
Air shouldnt be a problem.

So IMO, either distrib wasnt put in right, or your not getting fuel.

 

we need to start a club

 

Hey I perseveired. I went in knowing the head gasket was blown, but not a cracked block , but look how long I've stuck thru it all, engine fire & all.

 

woa.. actually... the no 1 is the front left.. looking at it from the front of the car.. at least it is on my car.

 

Way I typed that is somewhat confusing x. Piston 1 is..

If looking at engine, it is left closest.

If sitting in car, right most front.

 

no problem.. i cant spell. so maby we can start a club..

 

It should atleast spit n pop if you have spark and fuel. If its not spiting and popping, you either don't have fuel or spark.

Spray starting fluid down its throat.

See how it spits n pops. out the intake or exhaust. That is an easy way to tell reverse timing.

Or if nothing happens you do not have spark.

 

I think most people refer to left and right as if sitting in the car, but I admit I find it confusing too.

You need to get a Haynes manual, or a GM shop manual (better) if you don't already have one. I think the first place to start (as I think someone has already suggested) is to make absoluted sure you have a spark and fuel. When you check that, get back to us. Good luck.

 

HERE'S what you do to find your problem:
First: Remove a spark pug wire from a plug (any one will do). Next, insert a srewdriver into the boot, hold the screwdriver by the handle and hold it about a 1/4 inch from the nearest exhaust manifold. While holding it in this fashion, have someone crank the engine...... Did a spark jump? If so, No fuel, Next test.

Second: If you have a spark, the problem is fuel. Obtain either a fuel pressure tester, or if unavailable, a pen cap (oddd, I know...). Now, Either attach the tester and turn the key on to see if the pressure comes up, or push the valve on the test connector in with a pen cap end for a split second with the key on to see if any fuel comes out ((DISSCONNECT BATTERY BEFORE ATTEMPT)).
Did any fuel come out? If it did, you must Check ECM.

These two tests are neccessary to obtain where to start When a NO-START condition exists. If the car passes both tests, The problem is most likley a computer issue (Usually, not always). Do the testrs and report back.

 

fbodtrek~ i know i have spark, and i have fuel going to the regulator(my pump is new everybody) could it be the regulator? i can rebuild that for about 30 bucks, but i know u can't dissasemble that w\o having to rebuild it. could this be a problem as well?........... hmm im about just ready to tow the sob to a garage and pay dearly, or perhaps its' swap time......

 

Does it atleast try to start??? Does it spit or pop even??? if you ahve fuel and spark it should atleast back fire, even if the time is way out of wack.

 

That's why I always say "passenger side" or "driver's side"... it's faster for me to remember!

 

Okay, if you got spark and fuel, Theres a few things that could cause the no start condition (here we go again). First, verify that you have an injector signal (you'll need a test diode). If you're getting a signal, remove a spark plug and turn on the key, if you smell fuel, you're flooding out. (Check All of the plugs in this fashion). If you're not flooding out...... Well, then it may be another thing. I have never witnessed a no-start condition that didn't at least sputter when getting spark and fuel. Also, don't forget, -just because you replaced componets relating to spark and fuel dellivery, doesn't guarantee that you're getting spark and fuel UNLESS YOU verify---- If all of the needs are met (spark and fuel, no flooding) You SHOULD have SOMETHING. If you don't, you need to find yourself a donor computer to test that aspect. Timing being off will give you SOMETHING, backfire, sputter, detonation of some sort. Attempt cranking the car with starting fluid, if it doesn't pop, you got an issue. Good luck

 

ok ok here goes.....

when i turn the key right now.....
it will crank and crank like it's going to start, untill i crank the battery down from fooling with it.

charge the battery, and gofer again, this time with the starting fluid, no change..........................as for cracking and poping... i dunno so much, but it does sound like she is about to go, after the 4th or 5th crank in the rotation u just know she's not gonna start.

if i am floding out.... what do i do about that?

i do the "paper clip" trick on the dignostics plug, i get a code 12, and as i have been informed, that is normal, that means that your ECM is working and all that jazz.

either way..... im looking for a 3.4...........................................................................

thanks for input guys

 

oops for got one thing......

i rememberd when rereading the last post... when i tryed the starting fluid..... i threw a fireball out of the tb....... i guess that made me so mad that it eluded my memory for a bit and i forgot to throw that in their....

 

Which way it pops help determine which way out of wack your timing is off and if it is off. Sounds like its off. But not sure which way you should turn it. Sounds it too advanced?

What you might want to do is get a buddy to turn the car over, while you turn the distributor back n fourth and see it you can get it running. turn it slow and get it to pop less out the TB. If it gets close in either direction you can pull it out and move it over a turn to get more room that way.

180 is possible but I assume you line up the timing marks when you changed it. Id give the distributor a crank back n fourth while someone cranks it over.

That is if you don't want to tear the motor back down to make sure. Which may be better but not as easy.

 

ok well as far as poping it's commin out the tb........ next time i go home (whitch will be saterday, but it's supposed to be 14 degrees , don't know if i will be forging threw the weather to play with this......... i don't have a heater and my garage walls are very thin.... very...... we will see how tuff i feel)

i don't have a problem with tear the motor back down, just a problem with the 15 bucks it costs for the gastkett kit

well u guys are making me a little more optimisic than i was before, thanks for the input, u guys are awesome

 

Well don't quote me on it but since they are fresh gaskets, and were not talking about the heads i would just re-use them with some hi temp copper RTV.

You should use RTV anyways just you gotta use it right. It has a real purpose but people get carried away. Unless its gasket where tolerance is key, I re-use them with some copper RTV.

That is as Long as the gaskets are whole and not broken into pieces.

 

You may have flooded and wet your spark plugs to where they wont work. Try changing them.

 

You have a bad injector signal or very crappy injectors. Just turn the key on (don't crank it) and pull a plug. If it's clean and smells like gas, you have a problem.

 

well this weekend i will give all this stuff a shot.....
once i get the timing situation straightened out... and this deal with the flooding ( i don't think that it is floding out....)

i was just thinking tho...
could the cold start injector be bad ?

is the regulator shot?

this problem has been going on for months, sense july... i just love this car too much to even think about getting rid of her, you guys have been a huge help im really hopin i can get her back on the road with the 2.8 in it.

 

You might as weel do the 3.4L swap!

 

yea reading what u guys say about that, sounds like a project that is a lil cheaper, and you get some bang for your buck too... i probably will do that anyway, but i always thought maybe i could get more out of the old 2.8 if it was running vs just taking it to a scrap yard ya know?

 

why dont you just pull the dist, put number one at tdc and reinstall it then give it a try? Maybe the timing is TOTTALY off.You said you have gas and spark so thats the only other thing you need right really.

 

ok ok but if i do that what way should the dist. point when i reinstall it.... if im looking at it from the front of the motor (sense i have to take the hood off and stand on the motor anyways to get it out the easiest... right now if i can remember.... when it's at TDC....... i belive that it points at the one two oclock area... is that right?

 

take the dist out whatever position its in now doesnt matter since your car isnt starting anyway. Following these notes your gonna reset the dist to number one spark plug at tdc so you can be sure its right. So
Pull the dist out
Take out spark plug number 1 (passengers side of the motor front plug
put your finger over the spark plug hole or you can go buy a piston stop and screw it into the hole(much easier)
Turn the motor slowly with a socket (forget what size) and you';ll need a bar over the ratchet, If its too hard to turn by hand remove the other plugs so you wont be working against compression
Turn the motor till you either till the piston stop stops you from turning or (if you used your finger)untill you just stop feeling the air pushing your finger. check to see that the 0 and the marker on the crank line up.
Now reinstall the dist, remember the number one plug is between the 6 and 7 oclock position if you look at the rotor as being the hour hand of a clock
put the plug wires back on 1-2-3-4-5-6 clock wise and
(5)-(6)
(3)-(4)
(1)-(2)
while infront of the motor. You'll still need to adjust your timing but at least now you'll know the dist is in right. btw i thought the piston stop was easier than the finger method. good luck and btw you should be able to get the dist out with the hood on standing next to the car. I could anyway, use a 15 mm socket i believe, a swivel and a extention to take out the clamp bolt.

 

yeah well the hood is off anyways. so i can get all that stuff done.... and if it is all lined up right and still doesnt start..... i will be angry. i will prolly fool around with her on saterday so i will let u guys know how it goes

 

once you get the dist back in and everything is done , if you turn the key and it doesnt start try to turn the dist a little to advance the timing, clock wise retards it counter clock wise advances it.I know its a pain in the ***, i just got my car running right since xmas day when my head gasket went on me. Even now i have to get the valves adjusted correctly. When i first got it all together i had a huge vac leak that cuased my car to ilde like at 3 g's. then my car wouldnt start, just crank and crank. Its a pita sometimes. Thats why im putting money away for this http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...71&prmenbr=361

 

well guys, sorry about this, but this weekend i didn't get a chance to fool aound on "the green miricle" as i like to call her... sorry fellas, it was -1 saterday, and my garage don't hold heat very well.... but have printed out the post's, so thanks alot, and pray for a lil warm up for me so i can go fiddle on my toy!! thanks guys

 

Its like that sometimes man, it took me a month to complete a head gasket job on my car because of the weather. I dont even have a garage.

 

Don't take this to be insulting, and I'm not sure if anyone has already suggested it, but are you ABSOLUTELY sure that all of the plug wires are going to the correct points? I've taken them off and put them on many many times, and still, this summer, once I put them on in the wrong places even though I was sure, and once I forgot to reconnect 3 of them.

 

camaro_junkie, yes man, i don't know how many times weve checked that, cuz that what i kept thinking for like a week, hoping it was somthing simple like that..... but no such luck....

 

Cool, just wanted to make sure you checked, because it's such a boneheaded thing to do, yet it's so easy to do. I know from experience of course.

edit: Have you tried unplugging the MAF yet?

 

MAF is new.... and right now, it's just an open TB

 

You are not getting enough spark to start your engine.
Insert New coil.
ALSO check you alternator.
Sound like you have a weak one, too.
Getting "spark" does not ensure a starting car.
Have you already removed the distributor for any reason?
IF you replaced your T chain & the dots did not line back up, go back in there again.
#1 cylinder on our 60* V6 rides is front passenger side.

 

brand new alternater, brand new coil, yea, the dist. was removed last summer for a new pick up coil, but it ran for another month after that b4 i started having these problems with it

 

In three years, I've gone thru three rebuilt by Autolite (Ford division, very high quality apperance) alt.s
Because of funky alternators I've gone thru 7 ICMs.

What color is the spark ya get?
Light Bolt Bright White is required for ignition.

Do the fuel pressure test to determine if that is possible cause.

You seem to have covered many bases.

 

Sounds like a timing problem to me, too. I know it's more work, and I can empathize with the cold garage problem, but have you torn back down to the timing chain to check the timing marks like KED85 said and make sure everything is aligned properly? Because if those timing marks are not lined up properly, then it won't matter how many times you try setting pistons to top dead center and reinstalling the distributor--the valves are not going to work at the right times and your gas/air mixture injected into the cylinders when you try to start it is either going to leave the cylinder before the spark plug fires or arrive after it has already fired. Set the no.1 piston to top dead center, and then immediately check the timing marks on the gears before you mess with anything else. Once you're positve that the crank and the cam are properly lined up together, check your distributor. As all of these other guys have said, the rotor should be pointing to the no. 1 cylinder's spot on the cap. If it is, then you can rule out timing as your problem. Now...get an assistant to crank the motor over while you hold one of the spark plugs against the engine block with the wire still connected (shorting the plug to the block); if you get spark, nice healthy bright spark, then your problem is in your fuel delivery between your injectors and the regulator. If you do not have bright, good spark, then check your ground wires. One bad/disconnected/corroded groundwire will keep the car from starting.

Also--and I mean this is only a theory, as I do not own a fuel-injected 2.8, but (since you said you are trying to start it with a bare throttle body) have you tried to start it with the intake duct reinstalled with the MAF sensor? I know it probably sounds kind of pointless to even mention that, but I have a 1989 BMW 325i that absolutely will not even TRY to start if that intake duct is not on, and tightly. I'd imagine that you've already tried that; but if you didn't, give it a whirl and see what happens.

Also, if that old chain slipped and let the cam come too far out of time, then it may be possible that valves were bent (I've heard of it happening before). Bent or burnt valves will keep the engine from starting also.

You say that this has been going on since July or so. May I ask what the original problem was that got you started with all of this? What did the car do that prompted all of this work?

 

over the summer the car as just plain acting funny.... it would run fine for a few weeks... then it would run like crap... then one day.. POP it just died. that was all the electrical problems pick up coil, coil, alt., module, that stuff. then i was still having the probelms. turns out the fuel pump was shot, got that replaced, then it ran for a about 2 days, then was doing the same thing, it would start but would just... POP and stop running. replaced the starter (it was fried too) and it ran for a bout a week. then one day i started it up, walked into the house to grab somthing came back out and it wasnt running. that was the last time it ran. so i went and bought my truck....

 

WOW....that's interesting. Sounds like you have some kind of major electrical problem, either in a control unit or in the wiring harness some place. How long have you had the car? Does all of the wiring look original, or has it been tampered with?

I say this because it isn't very common to have SO MANY electrical problems AT ONCE when there isn't something seriously wrong with a shorted wire, a bad ground, or a faulty ECU.

Like I said before, check the engine timing---1st at the gears, if you are not ABSOLUTELY sure that you lined everything up right when you put it back together. IF the cam and crank are aligned correctly, check the timing up at the distributor by putting the #1 piston to TDC as said before. If that's good, then you have got to have one monster of an electrical problem.

Look for shorted, burned, bare, or broken wires in the engine bay and under the dash by the fuse box and ECU. If all of that is good, remove the alternator and take it to someplace OTHER than the place you bought it at, and have it checked again. I work in the parts store community, so I know how some of these salespeople can tell you your alternator is good when it really tests bad so they don't have to warranty it for you. The Auto Zone in my town is notorious for doing just that.

Only two other suggestions I can give you at this point. One is you could try putting in another computer (I don't think that's the core problem though), and two is to find yourself and electrical GENIUS to come over and start testing circuits to find out where all of the power is flowing and not flowing. I'd like to blame the ECU, but the ECU isn't going to create a power spike that fries all of the electrical stuff in your car. A bad alternator could do this, hypothetically, but it sounds like botched wiring to me. Is that the original engine in the car? How long have you had it? How much do you know about the prior history?

You need to find an electrical expert. I'd list another post under the title of "(your year) 2.8 WON'T START, TRIED EVERYTHING" or something like that to grab everyone on the V6 forum's attention who knows anything about the subject. That might help you out better and get you connected with someone else who has had the same problem.

Oh yeah never hurts to check the fuses and circuit breakers in the fuse box. You never know.

 

My car had a little problem
Car wouldn't shut off after I did so at ignition key in steering column.
WHAT A BUMCH OF WASTED PARTS I THREW AT IT, cause would jinx out on me then be good for abit, then.....
TURNED OUT it was a short in the junction box wires at front of car, passenger side.
Why there?
Car was once in a an accident.
Problem discovered by a genius.
I had given up, on my solutions.
PS you could have a very funky broken valve spring or something mechanical.
Try a compression test to see if one cylinder reads zero pressure.
That COULD explain the why car works, then not work, then acts funky....then dies.....

 

Well, I'll make a couple of suggestions.

1) You said you just have an open TB......hook the MAF sensor back up. It's kinda important.

2) I've seen ONE shorted injector cause an engine to not start. Only on batch-fire engines, the shorted injector will draw too much voltage and effectively shut down an entire bank, resulting in an engine running on 1 bank or not running at all.

Other than that I dunno what to tell you. It's hard enough to diagnose a car in front of you, let alone diagnose one over the internet.