http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/A...-2-014612.html I don't even know how to make this a link, but DAMMNN! Dual throttle bodies, twin tunnel flexibility! looks a little ratty but, a little R&D, some powdercoating, who knows? For a 23ish percent power increase, sign me up! I'm sooooo gonna do this.

 

that's quite possibly one of the most creative things i've seen done to a 2.8/3.4 in quite a very long time....i had toyed with the idea of building a custom intake for these cars that ran dual TB's, just have never gotten around to it (don't know if i ever will)just always thought itd look incredible, and with a litle polish here and there it would...

 

that's really cool. i had never though of anything like that, not exactly like that anyways....might have to see if i can come up with something!

 

i got my thought from lookin in ferraris and whantot, they tend to have two seperate itnake plenums with individual tuned runners (what i wanted to build, the only thing that'd make this simpliar would be the utilization of the middle intake) but i thought having dual tubes, running to I.R.'s that feed oposing cylinder banks linked up with a pair of TB's and a pipe to run them to the middle would look freakin incredible...if i get some time together, i might try to work one of those out of my ***....the power increase is definately nice.

 

I dont see the point, One tb has more than enough air flow for our little 2.8's, even the 3.4. So why two? And the whole plenum sucks on these motors (as far as removing valve covers,fuel regulators)not just the upper. I'd like to see someone make a new plenum all together not just bolt some pipe to the lower plenum and add a unneeded tb. Something that is tottaly new from the manifold up.
Like 6 tubes that curve up and forward, you'd have to make two plenums like this for the fuel rail and injectors to be installed, then the top plenum could kinda like a header collecter. The 6 tubes could blend into one large tube with the TB on the end.
I got this idea from my old car, a mustang. The mustang has serveral plenums on the market for it, the one i was looking at to compare to my thoughts on the 2.8 plenum boosts low end tq and hp numbers and is based on the same idea.
Wish i had a garage and the tools to make one.

 

The guy got amazing gains, so......utilizing the stock intake and middle plenum and MAYBE 2 days work, he got more than 25 ponies to show for. Just because our throttle bodies SHOULD flow for our motors doesn't mean that they do. This guyys design could be tweaked easily and offers flexibility and cheapness.

 

hp numbers are not what makes the car move tq numbers are and he lost the low end tq so its point less.Not to mention it looks like a speacial ed student made it.
If your gonna make a custom Plenum do it right. Look at differnt plenums on the market,see how they are made. How large/small are the runners and whats the hp and more importantly,TQ gains.
The stock Throttle body is PLENTY of flow for these motors. The problem is not that we need two of them, the plenum isnt the best air flower made, and strapping two pipes ontop of the stock lower plenum isnt a big step up either.

 

Well after seen the intake with the 350 TPI TB I had a similar idea using the aluminum "fart" cans like that. Most cars have intakes like that. My Moms old 94 excort has an intake very similar but of course only 1 tube.

Dual TB and dual cables, Dual TPS, dual CIA and everything else on the TB seams like allot of work to sync and keep sync'ed.

 

dual tps would not be necessary, hence the shaft that the guy alluded to between the two TBs. they will operate together, he mentioned later in the post that he was going to change to this setup. the CIAs could be a bit of a prob. but i would link the 2 TBs there too, somehow. saying that kind of air flow is not necessary does apply to those running stock motors, i have been looking into ways to increase the amount of air that my motor can get, its hurting @ 6k. i've been looking into adapting a v8 dual barrel TB also...

 

That's almost precisely what I'm thinking of doing to mine.. though now that the turbo's on single-TB is more likely to be what I go for.. probably a TPI tb though. My thought involved replacing the middle plenum too, though, rather than reusing it. I wanted longer runners to get more torque out of it.. now that the turbo's in, that's definitely on my to-do list since low-end is the only department she's suffering in.

That's a nice short-runner intake there.. and it does get rid of 1/2 of the upper->middle plenum bend. Shorter runners == less velocity at low rpm, more flow at high rpm (shifts powerband up, less low tq, more hp). Getting rid of that bloody bend == more air + less turbulence, more power all around (offsets low-end TQ loss to a degree, and continues adding to HP)

 

thats the exact thought blue89rs and myself have. I must inform him of this!

 

Brobert,
TQ is a necesity, but there are several problems i see with it...number 1, our little sixes don't have much of it, so it apparently can't be alltogether incredibly important.... on the contrary it is important, as that's what horsepower is based off of. Large diesel Trucks have tons and tons of torque, but they're basically lacking in horsepower, the end result is the ability to pull or move large loads (the truck, plus what it's carying) and doing that with ease, yet the expense is the ability to "get up and go". Having an engine with a thousand horsepower, but it's relying on 200 pounds of TQ, is kinda detrimental also...the best bet is to find something in between, and when ur not coming from much (our sixes) then it's going to be more difficult to get more....in other words, we'll take what we can get and i think the idea is good...especially if you want power where you need it, the top end.

 

Our 6's dont have much tq and making a custom( i use this term very lose because what he made looks like ****)plenum while still using the lower plenum and lossing tq is stupid. Some motors can afford to lose low end tq to gain some hp numbers. Ours are not one of them. A properly thought out and built custom intake would gain you higher tq and hp numbers during a usable rpm rang, with these weak motors any mod that makes you loose hp or tq numbers is a mod you dont need.
I like the idea of a custom plenum IF its thought out and designed correctly. If someone is to make one they should do research and see why "blank" plenum makes so and so hp and tq numbers.Look around and see what designs work better than others and make a custom plenum that gives our weak 6's more usable power all around.
Just welding two pipes ontop of the lower plenum is hardly what these motors need nor is it an impressive mod either.
His upper plenum mod looks like the work of two hill billies, im surprized it doesnt shoot potatos out the back.

 

Well......I think its cool regardless and I give him props for actually trying something as opposed to just TALKING about it. I would think that it would work better than stock because the intake runners are ended more properly and he is actually taking advantage of the tuned plenum. And yes I know that the V6's are guttless in comparison to the V8's, but I don't see why you can't get 75HP/Liter. I believe he also said that the engine is a 3.4L, with gives him a good head start. Since he does have a 3.4L with a good exhaust setup, maybe the intake was a HUGE bottleneck in his system that he just eleviated by doing his intake mod. I just wish I would have done it first

 

his setup may look like crap, but most proto-types do. Esp when DIY mechanics make them. I have worked in a mfg facility, and some of the protos we made I laughed at, but they worked, and worked well. We then made apperence part of it, sometimes making the unit less functionable or as good just so it looked better. Sometimes making it look better, made it work better.

To make this have more tq, all he needed to do was make the runners longer. However, my favorite saying, BUILD FOR YOUR USE. Not everyones use of a automobile is the same.

I say his numbers speak for themselfs. If he sold them, I would buy one and adapt it to work on map (hes running maf). I would also like my runners a tad longer.

I wonder how he hooked his throttle cables up. I see two up top, wonder about down low...

 

I didn't realize it was a MAF! How do they do that on a Fiero? Same as Camaro? Very interesting.....I want to know how he did the linkage too. Looks like he's running the left TB from the right TB (as you look at the picture). Seems like he just took some 3" exhaust, cut some holes in it, and then used aluminum tape to seal it against the manifold using some hose clamps. Pretty temporary but proves a good point. :hail:

 

If you read the aritical ( I read something, shoot me!!) he said he used 3.5 dom (assume aluminum), and if you save and zoom on the pic, looks like its "welded".

Also says the firewall TB is upside, and using the cruise cable to control it

I've got idea on throttle cable Now if it works, and wouldnt hit anything is another story

 

That Intake is a fabulous piece of work. The fact that it doesn't measure up to certain peoples uppity standards of a worthy project is so completely small minded and superficial.

br()bert

Plz share some more of your vast wisdom with us

 

<~~ haha coming from a ******* who painted his carpet black with spray paint instead of cleaning it! Or should i talk about your amp wires ran down the middle hump of the car in plain site? Or maybe your wrist watch attached to the steering wheel? I guess i do have higher standers then you. Gumby i have never attacked you for your standers so why attack mine now? When everyone was flaming on you for your pics of your car and system did i say anything negative towards you? NO.
Just because i dont settle for any bull**** halfassed "custom" upper plenum doesnt mean im some uppity jackass.
I based my opionions on facts like, runner size affects tq numbers and based my idea of a complete custom made plenum should have a simular design as one that would raise tq and hp numbers in a usable rpm range. And on the facts that the stock TB has enough air flow to support a 2.8 or 3.4 easily and that adding a second isnt really the solution to more tq and hp.
So as i said i didnt come in here just calling it ****, i explained why i thought it was a waiste, unlike your uppity comments made just because i didnt jump on the wagon and say "cool dude im gonna do that too" woohoo lets all be followers.https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ighlight=gumby read the thread i actually had your back. But hey weak minded people make good followers i guess.

 

WTF is up with this man?
No arguements needed, you have your oppinion, he has his.
If he wants upper gains, then he now has a way to get them cheap.
You want domething different, so DO something different.

Though I coulda swore this floated around a while ago... Maybe not.
But if you want mid-upper gains, there you have your solution.

Brobert... CHILL OUT.
Gumby... CHILL OUT.

And yes, the design is better then stock. It negates the sharp bend of the stock upper.
SO, you work on CRM restrictions, and you will see tremendous gains I am sure.

 

Moving past the attitudes...

What might be better would be to use aluminum "box"/ Rectangular tubing. It will cut the total CFM avail in the tubes down, in effect creating a "restriction" of sorts. It will also make it easier to make the mounting points.

If you get the thinner square tubing, you can use a tubing expander to get on end gradually round.

 

The design works....Reguardless of how he felt -"...A little loss in low end torque". Gaining that much Horsepower is a plus to that minus. And Yes, there is one similar using rectangular runners, the throttle bodies are liked by a straight steel shaft between the two (one is just the butterfly housing). If You cant STAND to loose a little torque, elongate the runners a bit. I know of another person with a 265 horsepower 230 ft/lb 3.4 fiero, who got that way with underdrive pullies and YES the dual chamber intake..... Worry about how my tail lights look when I'm flying by you. ANYONE can make something look good, Anyone can make a negative comment. The truth is, the design LOOKS whack, but it's a first prototype, he'd beat a stock 2.8 or 3.4 (even if the setup was in a cAMARO), thats all that matters. So, when I finish MY dual throttle intake (used by Porsche and Ferrari, and their motors are about the same displacement...) I'll see plenty of unsuspecting victims in my wake....and they thought it was ugly too. Have a nice day

 

Rectangular or round.. no matter.. that's one heck of a setup there. I'd still reccomend replacing the lower plenum too.. be easier to make mounting flanges to the intake than it looks like it would be on that piece. Yes, it's welded. It's called prototyping. If a part isn't made, you do whatever you have to in order to make it. Sometimes it's ghetto.. sometimes it works.. sometime's it's both.. but it's almost always going where very few people (if any) have gone before. I should know.. my passenger side exhaust manifold looks utterly ghetto. I also happen to have 6 psi of boost to play with. Which do YOU consider more important? I'm all for the boost myself.. the ghetto manifold can have a $400 weld-el stainless manifold put in its place later.. the boost will stay.

 

:werd:

 

[br()bert just when I thought you said the stupidest thing ever, you keep right on talking and prove my point beyond a reasonable doubt.]

Once I say the 350 TBI mod I had to start looking on hwo to complete the idea.



Round or square is a hard choice. Most new cars have intakes like that but I'm sure cause round is easier. When you dig into the drag racing world you will find a bunch of guy making their own sheet metal intakes.

And of course they use square runners.


[Here is a bunch of link about sheet metal intakes.]

"This is why you see so many sheet metal manifolds today in racing. Technology is moving so fast that tooling up and casting a manifold would be a really bad mistake, because, before you'd sell "any" the engines will want a different configuration, and you'd be out considerable money."

http://www.theoldone.com/archive/int...old-design.htm


------
This one looks very similar to the intake in question but not just a top piece.

http://www.ffwdconnection.com/induction.htm

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http://www.force-efi.com/fabmach.htm

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http://www.usionline.net/122/Dyno%20Sheets/

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http://www.cartech.net/instrucsheetmetaluppr.htm

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http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pict...heetmetal.html

[close relation to our 6.]

---------

http://www.hotengines.com.au/manifold_modfication.html

-----

 

GUMBY CHILL. Personal attacks, get you banned.
CHILL TFO.
Edit that (rap out.

BOTH of you DROP IT.
I am interested in this thread, you two will get it locked/deleted.

 

See i base my opinion on facts such as runner size etc. Mo is not aimed to **** someone off and from this time on i refuse to amswer to inmature, people who have no factual information on which to base there comments. Have a nice day :werd:

 

I think that I've heard just about enough of this bickering

That is the first time I've ever seen one of those bent metal intakes! Very impressive I must say! Do you think that you could braze the metal together as a prototype? The only problem I've thought of on doing the V6 intakes is what do you do with the injectors? I haven't seen any intakes that have alternate mounting options for the fuel rail and injectors other than going comletely custom. But would that be the way to go anyway? How do the V8's regulate thier duel rails?

 

cool.

i would do two minor design changes.

1. id use a mechanical linkage between the two throttle bodies, then have the cable actuate them.

2. id put one or perhaps two small cross tubes to connect the two plenums.




and for anyone doubting the design of it, go look at ferrari, lamborghini, viper, and some other high end cars. this isnt a new design. and they dont just have it for looks.


in anycase, very cool.


anyone intrested in fabbing the ENTIRE intake (incase you really hate your stock base) should look here: http://snow.prohosting.com/~johngift/intakefab.html

 

A google search came up with three cutom uppers like this one except they had longer runners and one throttle body. One guy even made his own fuel rail and welded bosses into the runners for the injectors. This pic isnt for a 3rd gen or even a 6cyl but the design couls easily be adapted to our motors. The longer rubbers could boost tq during a usable rpm.

Disclaimer, This is just a pic and opinion, please dont take anything stated personal and get all pissed.
If you search on the net,you'll come up with a few sites with people who made custom plenums..................Also i think if someone made a lower simular to this upper the numbers would be impressive.>>>>>. That plenum on the site mr.dude posted looks cool. Long runners, it would probably work better than two pipes welded to the lower and two TB,s.

 

a book blue89rs has states that one plenium shouldnt feed more then 4 cyls, 3 being ideal. This the reason for two pleniums and TB's. Use of engine doesnt mater. Size of plenium needs to be 80% of the volume of the cylinders it feeds (correct me if I'm wrong here T). Thus for my soon application (.80 x 3.4)/2=1.36 liters per plenium if I was to design a dual plenium intake. If I wanted to build a single plenium intake it would be 2.72.

Yes longer runners gives your torque back, size also verys. Build per your application here.

Making your own fuel rails is an option, but an option most people dont have the equipment to do. Also, alot of people are scared to mess with the fuel system. Placement of the injectors maters alot too. Up high gives better mixture, but takes away from throttle response. Down low gives response, but less mix time.

As for opinions, the one brobert posted looks just as DIY/Backyard as the fiero one. But thats what they are, DIY prototypes.

 

Right with ya there on the backyard machinist! One problem that I have with the complete custom V6 problem is that its a 60* V6. This means that the lower intake manifold is part of the heads. I know we all know that, but how do you work around it? The lower manifold has intake and water jacket passages in it, not to mention the thermostat! So has anyone seen something that tackles these problems?

 

An idea I was/am flirting with is to make a mounting plate that will bolt to the lower manifold.
this will be used to mount an LS1 style log type to it.

 

That would be a good idea. But what would you do with the thermostat? I'll look at my extra 2.8L that's torn apart in my garage to see how feasible this could be. The guy on the link above looks like he found one and welded it in there. Not too much discussion about it.

 

you completely ignore it. It is one the base plate (lower manifold).
I am looking at replacing the mid-upper

The "log" would have the same sized rectangular tubing cut at angles to line up with the lower manifold at the bottom. The tubes would have to have a 160-180 bend to be semi wrapped around the "log". This will give the raised/expaned runners to give vari-geometry runners. The log will also be about 2" above the mounting plate.

This will come into its own at different RPM's. The lower, the torquier, and at higher the airflow will move upward twoards the top of the "log" to enter the runner.
The actual runner length (air flow lines) will be velocity oriented.

yes I have thought this one out. But I have other projects taking precedance.

 

I recognize the motor that That intake was made for..... It's for a boxer 4 cyl. like the Impreza motor.

 

I do wonder why they call them all "sheet metal" intakes.

And most of them don't use any flat sheets to built it, aluminum or other wise.

I wonder if a real sheet metal intake is possible.
It would hold just about 0 heat and weight nothing.

you could bend up, pop rivet, solider and goop together 5-10 different ones a day to test.

Far as the lower intake problems I guess you would need some sort of a pan, then drill and tape the water jackets for pipe fittings and run hoses.

 

Wasn't agood2.8 making a custom intake? What ever happened to him? I thought that I saw that he got banned or something? Whats up with that?

 

yea, he did get banned. he disagreed with a lot of people and it didn't go over too well. i am curious about his plenum too. he was only working on a top plenum. Dean (agood2.8), if you happen to read this, email me please (email is in profile), i'd like to know how the plenum and 3.4 are going...if either of them have run yet or just what kind of progress has been made.

 

Damn man, you need to lighten up, this guy did something custom for his own car and got some pretty good gains out of it. Sorry but im not too much a show boat about whats under my hood, im not the type of guy to say "Hey, look how **** I am about keeping my hood space clean". Maybe you are and if so, must suck grabbing your toothbrush every weekend scrubbing that grease out. I think the guy is on to something, there is room for improvement, but this is actually quite nice and simple.

 

What if someone did the "dual" intake like we see in most of the examples but cross up the tubes for the longest runner possiable?

left side of the engine feed off the right inake and so fourth.

 

i considered something like this too but then you're back to the sharp bend going from the middle to upper peices. might be able to smooth it out some but not a whole lot.

 

They do make true "sheet metal" intakes, but they are closer to 1/8"-3/16" thick single pieces. they make a solid steel die set and hyroform the metal to it.

there are companies that do this for the import market, and no not the stupid little honda's, try the R34/35, 2JZGTE, DET20, That little Z05, and the S14/15. The high ender's. They also pay for them. Most are 1000+.

 

Ah, but they we get into flow restriction in upper RMP. well not neccesarily restriction, but the engine could not get the air it needs.
That's why I did that "log" style one as I did. the runner length is velocity driven. As rpm goes up, the least resistance also moves upward in the intake runner.

 

It's not just that he disagreed, he continuoulsy attacked other members. Big no, no.
He was the reason I went on "hiadeous" for several months. I could not stand him personally. He refused to listen.

 

they also do it for V8s...

mostly tunnel ram dragsters... alum high rise sheetmetal intakes..

the flanges are CNC cut then the sheetmetal is bent/folded/curved to make the runner shape and taper desired, and its welded up... then they make a sheetmetal plenum.


btw, a local exotic car dealer was doing a commercial near my house lastnight.... got to look at some exotics up close...

i believe it was a ferrari 360 modena (i probly butchered that name, lol ) i was looking at... there were two long tubular plenums.. like you see above.. with two throttlebodys.
the plenums fed do cyls on the oppisate sides of the V10 or V12(i dont recall 100%)... there was a middle plenum thats just there for more volume and connects the two.

 

Is there a good example of a "Log" style intake laying around? Sounds like a good idea but seems like it is designed more around letting it breath than making it tuned. Is this the same idea behind the BMW variable length intake runner? I've also heard about making dual intake runners with flaps to redirect air flow so you can tune for two RPM ranges. Seems like the 2.8's are going to have space restrictions though, unless you get a 2" hood deck

 

Dodges cutaway view of their viper intake is a nice example...


BMW has their variable length one like you said... some searches might turn up more on them... but this isnt quite the same idea... its a set length like conventional intakes.


the most common intake i know of that uses flaps to direct thru a long and short intake runner path is the ford SHO... my roomate has one.. intresting design.

 

No my engine bay isnt all clean and chrome,but i dont have grease and dirt all over either.what i posted was mo, and in mo he lost usable tq and all i was saying is if someone looked around at other designs they could make one ( upper and lower) to boost power in a usable range.if you read more you see mr.dude and others posted examples of other plenums that would do this.Maybe i was a little harsh with the spec ed comment, your right about that.Also thats the only part of my post you seem to be reading.I dont find what he made impressive at all. Prototype or not.Still just because i didnt play follow the leader doesnt jive someone the right to attack me.

Also i remember seeing a post that agood made when i did a search , he posted his cell phone number while fighting with someone over who would win a race. Maybe someone can call him.

 

I wouldn't bend it tight. It may be limited to those with a cowl hood that could run something pretty high. As it stand now under the stock hood you got about 3+ inches.


Its hard to let some comments get past me but for people like 2.8 [wont mention any name here] I find this link works wonders.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/member2.php?s=&action=viewlist&userlist=ignore