ThUnDeR2005

I've had my car apart for a while and today i got all the new goodies for it. Dis. Cap, rotor, spark plugs, plug wires... put on the new o-ring.

Got car hooked up. A few connections were trouble, mainly vacuum related stuff. Ditched the "thermactor" solenoid thing that is on the air cleaner and the such. Try to crank car. No go. Ok fine, maybe its a fuel thing. Negative, fuel aplenty.

So now we check for spark. NONE from the distributor. He tested it by taking a screw driver and putting it to the distributor tip of plug wire #1 (with plug wire removed obviously) Cranked car but it would seem theres no spark. Just to make sure, is that a method of checking for spark? Friend said a mechanic did it at a shop and it arced, which showed there was spark obviously.

Now...heres 2 possible theories... somewhat intertwined.... i could be a total n00b and be off about it but heres what im thinkin...


Is it possible having the plugs one the wrong spots cause a lack of total spark? I'm not thinking so, but asking anyways. I realize that its possible they are in wrong spots and that'll be the first thing to check tomorrow. Also as you can see, when the distributor cap was put on, the only way it fit was at that angle. Would that angle effect the rotor's ability to deliver spark to the tips?

I'm dead tired. Been workin with a friend on this car for almost 8 hours. Not continuously but for a good chunk of it. Any suggestions, tips, anyone wanting to point out im a total newb not worthy of owning this camaro by giving me common sense advice, post away lol. I want this car to work for me and its just being stubborn.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

The cap being fuxx0red should have no bearing on it getting spark. Yeah, that looks pretty messed up, so I would sugggest you pull the cap off and try to figure out wth is making it only fit on like that. Then check your ignition coil and stuff, and if all else fails, you'd be suprised what you can fix by hitting stuff with a hammer or piece of pipe.

ThUnDeR2005

lmao the coil seems fine. Its all plugged up and such. There were a few connections that werent hooked up. Just 1 or 2 that spring to mind... only cuz we couldnt find a place to hook them up. I'll get pics if I have to, but those connections seem to have no bearing on delivering spark from what I've been told.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, unless you like connected the dizzy advance directly to the carb or something lol. If you have a voltmeter handy, you can test the coil. I still think it's something wrong with the cap. Maybe the actual dist. is in there wrong?

ThUnDeR2005

well the distributor was removed earlier to relieve the old O-ring of its duties, thats also when I gave it the new cap and rotor. ... There is actually, a voltometer that I can borrow from a friend. I can try that method as well tomorrow. Good thing I don't have class... cuz im probably gonna sleep in til 1 in the afternoon then start to get crackin on the car for the rest of the day lol

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

That's the way to do it. Sleep in, go get some beer, and git 'er done.


My plans for tomorrow involve a new fuel filter, and going to buy 1,6 rockers and springs.

ThUnDeR2005

sweet. The "git'er done" thing was abused all day by my friend and I lol.

Lemme know how you like those rockers cuz I thought about getting some a long time ago. Not sure if I want to now, tryin to save for a 350 build. Guess If I could pep up the v6 for not too much, I'd go for it.

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Sure thing. I plan on getting a 350 this summer, but I will keep my 416 heads, so the rockers will work on both motors.


You can get some entry level 1.6 rockers for like eighty bucks I think. And as long as those dont like explode or anything, heck, it could be fun. I hear they have made a proven 13 rwhp on v8 cars, and combined with other mods, whoo... (and I thought I saw a big difference when I added 4* of spark timing. )

ThUnDeR2005

Hehehe definitely sounds like something I could throw into the works of this car

KED85

I think you inserted distributor wrong & the plug wires are goofed up.
Plug #1 is FRONT passenger side cylinder
Remove that plug stick your finger there & crank over.
You'll feel pressure, which shows the top stroke.
Once you feel comfortable with top dead center spot, check your guess at timing on balancer, which should be close to zero.
THEN position the distributor back in with the rotor now at "SEVEN O'CLOCK" postion. That's your number one spot on distributor cap.
NOW go forward with rewiring car plugs.
Driver side front cylinder is number TWO, passenger front is number one, driver side even numbered plug/cylinder & you guessed it, passenger side is...
Once you get everything right, go check for spark again. You'll probably find it, now.
IF NOT coil is bad.

ThUnDeR2005

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok, definitely something to try!

Thx for the input KED, much appreciated

KED85

ONCE you get comfortable feeling top dead center (it's kinda fun to learn this part) and distributor inserted right & the plug wiring right, you'll be back to a healthier position to make a true judgment call on worn parts.
MEANING THAT IF it ran before ya pulled this all apart, damned if it SHOULDN'T WORK AGAIN!
When distb is in hand, look at it to be sure it seems proper put back together, too.
THE BIG BOX ON SIDE OF DISTB goes on passenger side of engine compartment, ONLY ONE SPOT DOES IT FIT.
ONCE IN THERE, you twist to get exactly right at "7 o'clock" with rotor & cap.
AND SERIOUSLY
"twist distributor while trying to start", too (slightly back and forth and I'll bet you'll hit that sweet spot).
IF an aged engine, "doesn't exactly mean" that timing will be "perfect" due to stretching of timing chain. Which is why you compliment the distb rebuild with a new chain to feel full effects of effort. Yeah, it's necessary due to engine age.
LOTS OF HASSLES but, worth it in end. Add new water pump & ya ready for summer hot!
I think you know where to go now.

ThUnDeR2005

Yup the car did run before we took it apart. Funny as my sig in a dif forum is now

"We took a running car apart to put in new parts to make it a better running car only to put it back together and not have the car run"

lol

Thanks for the added advice

TechSmurf

Btw, the 'better' spark test is to have a spare plug handy (gapped to spec for your motor), plug it into any spark plug wire, and ground it to a strut tower bolt. This way you not only know if there is spark, but the intensity of the spark, since you're looking at the actual spark you'd be seeing inside the engine, gives you a good idea of the overall health of your ignition system.

ThUnDeR2005

Ok thanks, that'll be the first thing I'll try then when I get to crackin on this sucker soon!

edit: btw... just to be sure... does the engine need to be cranking when I do that ground test? I know it might sound stupid, but I have to double check just to be sure. Also, the strut tower bolt... thats where the hood strut is? Just touch the end of the spark plug against the bolt?

I don't want to do something stupid because I'm imagining something other than what you mean heh

KED85

Yes, you do crank engine over to check the spark.
AND the DARKER the area of testing (OR DAY/NIGHT) the BETTER to tell IF you do have good spark.
The spark COLOR MUST BE LIGHTENING BOLT WHITE
IF ANY OTHER COLOR BUT LIGHTENING BOLT WHITE replace coil, start car.
Big plastic cover thing with 3 bolt around it, at top of fender area, by edge/side of hood.
Enjoy the fun, sounds like you're much closer now to knowing what to do.

ThUnDeR2005

Ok serious problem now... at least I think it is....

A friend came over with a snap-on spark tester and hooked it up between the coil and cap to see if there was any spark from the coil. **NO SPARK**. so then he wanted to make sure that it was the coil dead and nothing else so he disconnected the coil and used a current tester on the plug that goes to the coil (key on engine off) and there was NO POWER in the line.

Also another problem is the 12V link that plugs into the fuse box (says "To 12V" on a piece of paper on the wire) the wire was frayed so i reconnected the wire. What is this wire?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Were all stumped now....

ThUnDeR2005

I'd also like to add, I haven't tried your suggestions KED85.... When he came over, he had the thing on him and just happened to try the coil. In case he did it wrong (hoping hoping hoping he did), still going to try tomorrow. I just hope it'll get fixed. He had told me of a what seemed to be an early 90s camaro (third gen) that was in the car shop... ran fine and all then they turned it off and didn't start it for a few days... now it wont start at all and shows all signs of lacking electric current to create the spark, much like mine. Battery is fine and all.... Just dunno what to do from here..

KED85

I learned about the spark problem solution when I had same problems.
My Firebird died at intersection with pregnant Wife at wheel in damp rian.
Oh Joy!
Did all this & that. I do mean all of this & that (checked spark at fuel injectors to be sure firing, all this long list...).
All because I saw spark.....not NO SPARK, just saw spark...& assumed....
Last resort was to pull the coil off my 1985 Blazer (see below) an Accel unit with over 100,000 miles on it during 10 years of usage.
Damned if the Firebird started!!!!
Hooked back up old coil & wouldn't start.
Hooked up old Accel & started like a champ again.
Go get a coil (for about $20-ish) & have on hand. Tell your buddy to buy one also.
Must have super strong spark to start these cars.
As I said, LIGHTENING BOLT WHITE or the car won't start.
The wire?
No true clue. COULD be fusible link.
But car ran before so it will run again.
Keep at it.
Unless ya got a second car!

ThUnDeR2005

He had told me that if the coil had NO SPARK, it was a problem with something other than the coil. Is it possible for the coil to be dead and give no spark whatsoever..... rather than a weak one?

KED85

Again
Coil IS BAD AND CAN ALSO GIVE A WEAK SPARK
It's ture.
Cost like $20-30 to prove me wrong but I'll bet it's the coil somehow it died.
EVEN IF ya just "hook it up to test" you can always returnit to store as long as you do not install it.
Go get a stock on, swap over the stock connections, hook up one spark plug wire & crank engine.
IF you have the spark plugs wired correctly, your distb. in right position, it'll start.
IF you have NO SPARK it's the ICM.
IF you have weak spark, NO START, it's coil.
IF you haven't secured plug positioning & such (distb in correctly) it will possiblyy not start, also.
I had that happen on my Blazer when I changed plug wires.
I screwed up, got plug wires in wrong. No start.
Corrected plug wiring, started right up.

New Coil is cheap easy test & returnable. SO your cost is nothing to try, right?

ThUnDeR2005

You make sense ked, and I definitely will pick up a new coil today if possible. Whats an ICM btw? My wild guess would be ignition control module but I dunno lol

guest

ya the 1990 tbi camaro ran great the first few months it was at the shop then we left it set for 2 or 3 days then we tryed to start it and it wouldnt go. so we replaced the dist. module,cap, rotor, coil, plugs, plug wires. still wouldnt start and still wont.
and there is a dash light that says something like INFL RESET
i have called all of the local chevy dealers and none of the tech guys have any clue what it is.

guest2

ha i laugh at your v6 you need a V8
then again with what that 90 tbi 1 is doing i have to wonder

ThUnDeR2005

haha funny brian.... I'd really rather just have my car fixed at the moment...

ThUnDeR2005

Anyone know what this is?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../whatsthis.jpg

Came off plug #1 or something... I didn't take it off, but I think thats what my friend sam had said. He thinks its tach related... I'm not sure, thats why I ask.

Also I think this sparkless problem is related to a fuse for ignition..... I put in new coil and the car wouldn't start still. Quite frustrating

ThUnDeR2005

I'm posting some more pics of various connections that did not have a place to connect to... MAYBE one of these holds the answer, just hopefully. Sorry that they all turned blurry but you can make them out just enough. Fuse box pic turned out great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...alternator.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ideharness.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ideharness.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...omfirewall.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...04/fusebox.jpg

Also want to add... I have no AC system installed (removed all components) no AIR system, no smog pump, removed that "Thermactor" thing that attaches to the air cleaner assembly. That funky lil canister is gone as well.

Pretty close to running out of ideas... tomorrow I'm going to pick up a voltmeter/multimeter in order to check coil/dist voltage and see if maybe this has to do with something like fuses. Problem is, the haynes manual shows for camaros, 82-84, doesnt seem to have fusible links on the starter/charger system. This is in the electrical wiring diagrams. 85 and up, they showed where fusible links were.

guest2

dang how many connectors are not pluged into anything

ThUnDeR2005

Somebody suggested it could be the ballast resistor? That sound like a plausible reason for the no startup?

kal

The one in the first photo looks like it connects to the back of the alternater on the bottom side I think. The green one in the third pic I'm pretty sure goes to the top of the carb on the drivers side. As for the others I don't remember off the top of my head but I'll try to find out for you. Also I remember seeing that white connecter but not sure where, I want to say it goes to some sort of vacume thing that is on the forward valve cover. If I remember correctly it has 3 vacume lines comeing out of a plastic piece. But I'd have to check. As for the others I am at a loss, maybe if you could get some better pictures of them I could help you out.

ThUnDeR2005

Can't seem to find any sort of place to hook up anything to the alternator...

I have that piece disassembled and not put on the car. We traced it to the air cleaner assembly and decided it was not needed. At least It didn't look necessary..... should we hook that deal up?

KED85

That first pic is for ALTERNATOR!
No wonder you have a no start condition.
That goes to alternator.
THE THIRD PIC of CHOKE SIDE OF CARB
You have that exact same thing as on my 1985 Blazer, FEDERAL VERSION.
Mine is a missing a "connection", too.
That plug with two circle things in it.
But that thing on choke side makes no difference in starting.
Alternator connection holds your key, I'll bet.
Here's a trick.
Have you tried starting fluid into carb?
IF you have enough spark it can "run on that fluid for a few moments".
Those other connections on passenger side seem to not make a true difference, I THINK!
BY Pulling a plug, is it wet with gas?

ThUnDeR2005

Ahhhh but i can't find anywhere on the alternator that thing hooks into, thats my problem.

KED85

Its on top of alternator.
Find that thick red wire that is HOT with BATTERY JUICE.
Right by there.
It clicks right in there.
IF I AM CORRECT you are NOT giving the engine system the juice to make it run right. Because you have interrupted the juice flow at alternator.
See if I am correct.
Glad you atleast tried the coil trick.
AND seriously it may not be bad idea to have it handy, anyway.
Just be sure to be able to return that new coil!

ThUnDeR2005

I don't think I'll return it... 17 dollar investment... better to have a new coil than a 20 year old one. I will try the alternator thing... hell its 11 pm, i'll just do it now.

KED85

This is "your engine bay"

ThUnDeR2005

Yeah I'm not seeing a place to connect it. Let me get a picture and I'll edit this post with the pic in just a few minutes

KED85

Your smog set up.

ThUnDeR2005

Heres the pics

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...lternator1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...lternator2.jpg

KED85

LOOK at MY ALTERNATOR IN MY PIC
See the plug ON TOP AT 10:00 O'Clock/11:00 O'Clock POSITION?
RIGHT UNDER THE HEATER CORE HOSE!
Your alternator was taken apart & reclocked to be "postioned differently".
Your connection location is now on the bottom.
Feel under/around the red plug cover area. You'll now find that plug socket space.
BUT SEE MY ALTERNATOR?
Mine is postioned correctly, the alternator and the plug which you hold in mystery!
Gonna go to sleep now. Give a shout in the AM with good news, I'll bet you may have it for us!

ThUnDeR2005

Ok ked thanks!! I think I'm getting closer but I'm afraid I still need some help.

New developments....

Got that green connector a home... went to the choke side. Now the choke light comes on in dash and the ticking noise is back (never did that while working on friday, but it did do that all the time when the car was running)

Development #2 is now a new connector with no home. Dunno how I missed it but its different than most and traces back to the same harness of wires thats included with distributor module and indirectly linked to coil.

KED85

I had that choke light problem happen when I was reassembling my 3.4 under the Blazer hood.
I was able to get that truck running even tho that choke light stayed on.
My truck has "valve train rattle" due to I need a minute turn per cylinder rocker arms, still.
Your situation is different in that your ride has a "computer" of sorts.
My situation, I was adding an electric fuel pump set up (3.4 blocks have no provisions for mechanical fuel pumps) and pulled power from incorrect source.
I FEEL THAT IF you remove the choke wire, that light may go out.
Not sure on your other wires, yet.
My truck is a "different set up" but extremely similar. My truck has no computers, at all. Your Camaro, does. But between our vehicles, smog stuff wiring is about 75% the same.

WHO PULLED ALL THESE WIRES?

I do see the metal fuel line from pump to carb has been replaced or just that short 180* curve section to carb fuel filter. That's a bad move. Fuel flow can be inhibitied, which is why GM used a *&@^%%( metal tube back there (what a hard area to access!!).

ThUnDeR2005

2 Friends and I went at it a while back when we first started to disassemble the things in the car in order to reach the valve covers. Having some of these wires not having homes is mostly my fault... shoulda made sure we labeled everything so we could know where they went. Can't change the past though and hope I can find a place to put that connector at.

Also going to do the TDC thing today. You told me to use my thumb although I had someone else say I could use a piece of cork. On the upstroke, it would pop the cork out. Which method do you think is more accurate for finding TDC?

KED85

Index finger is fun way to find the TDC.
NOT PINKIE INSERTED INTO CYLINDER.
All ya need do is wiggle finger over the #1 plug hole (front passenger side).
No I would not truly suggest cork into the cylinder.
Finger method helps ya the most.
BEFORE YOU DO THIS!
Go get some white out.
Crank engine until seen is the TIMING MARK ON BALANCER.
CLEAN BALANCER SURFACE, paint that recessed line with white out.
Find timing marks on engine front. Wipe clean.
EVENTUALLY you'll need that white line, while engine running, to be close to 10*. IF timing chain never replaced, don't be surprised to set it higher than 10* to get good idle.

Now that you've done that...
When you do find TDC by finger over plug hole method, that white line should be at 0* area.
Insert distributor and that big box on passenger side of distb. does only fit in one place.
The ROTOR point should be very close by the 7:00 O'Clock position.
Remember, rotor DOES NOT rotate, the distributor housing does! BUT due to space limitations, not too much! SO yeah, it's gotta be "just ALMOST right".
On cap, I saw you had right idea about plug wiring.
But now make sure correct.
1-3-5 passenger side
2-4-6 driver side of engine
Cap is #1 at 7:00 position, next is #2 plug, etc...
Go have some fun!

ThUnDeR2005

How can I get that white mark to 0 degrees? Do I need to crank it til I get close enough?

TomP

Put a socket on a breaker bar, and turn the crank with the center crank bolt.

Remember it doesn't matter what cap terminal your #1 plug wire goes to! You can pick any terminal to be #1. BUT when you find TDC of the #1 cylinder as KED said, the rotor must point to that distributor cap terminal that you chose.

So-
1. Find TDC of #1 compression stroke
2. Your balancer groove should line up with 0 degrees on the timing scale.
3. Remove distributor cap and ALL the plug wires
4. See where the rotor's pointing
5. Loosen distributor hold-down bolt
6. Hold distributor cap "over" the distributor.
7. Turn the distributor's base until the cap will fit on so the rotor points to one of the cap terminals.
8. The cap terminal that the rotor points to is your new #1 cap terminal
9. Turn the distributor slightly counter-clockwise. This moves the cap so the rotor is pointing slightly "past" the new #1 cap terminal.
10. Screw the cap down
11. Plug the #1 plug wire into the new #1 cap terminal
12. Plug the rest of the plug wires into the cap, 2-3-4-5-6 clockwise

Done! The motor should start (if it doesn't, stop cranking and turn the dist a little more counter-clockwise); then put your timing light on it and getl the timing down to spec. Then turn off the motor and tighten the distributor hold-down bolt.

You should have 3 thin marks on your balancer; don't mark anything yet with white-out until you get the #1 cylinder to TDC compression (like Karl said, feel pressure against your finger).

In the first pic (the whatsthis pic), I've seen that thing before but I can't for the life of me remember where!! Ugh.

ThUnDeR2005

Sorry guys, tried your suggestions and no start. Retried spark test (screwdriver to dis cap #1 plug wire) and nothing. Nodda. Just so frustrated at the moment. I can' t, for the life of me, figure out why its not getting spark.

I have a feeling that one connector could be the problem, that black one a few posts up with the 4 prong connector, I've searched everywhere and found nothing. Like the alternator one... cept KED thankfully stepped in and told me where it goes. Woulda probably found it eventually but it happened alot faster when someone here recognized the connection.

Can anyone here check for that setup on their car? Possibly tell me where it goes? Its on the driver side and comes from the wiring harness in the very back, behind the distributor.

KED85

I do have an idea what may be those wires.
BUT IN ALL HONESTY
FOR every wire removed, there is a Mate!
NOW IF you say it's behind distb, well then there should be something for which it plugs into!
NOW that doesn't mean it may NOT have fallen outta sight! OR behind something.....like bellhousing area.
BUT to MAYBE make ya feel better
Ya want my tale of Woe?
I've wiated like nearly 10 years to solve the power steering system leak on my 1974 Corvette.
Started buying parts years agao, like new hoses (back in 1999!)
Recently got the whole pile of parts needed (try at a bargin $300 plus dollars so far only in parts!).
Get Corvette down to the garage (I'm smarter than to do this job in my driveway).
First thing I'm told when I got there
Did you know your fuel line was leaking at fuel pump? It'll be fixed for ya
OH those hoses you bought? Well one ain't right (it fits but it's too short, so an hour is wasted manipulating the hoses to work)
Then already to do alighnment
Can't do alignment
WHY?
YOUR FRAME IS BROKEN!
OH GREAT
SO remove all this stuff to access (try an estimate of $300 for that job!!!) to weld frame
OH you need front brake pads, too!!!!!

And you are frustrated?

Keep at it!!!!!

ThUnDeR2005

Ok first off... You guys are unbelievable.... besides my friend Sam, you guys have ROCKED during this whole period.

Major major major props to you all... so unbelievably elated!!!

CAR STARTS!!!! RUNS BEAUTIFULLY TOO!!!!!

The problem??

OMFG I don't even know if I want to say!!

Ok fine... THE COIL WASN'T HOOKED UP RIGHT! Those 2 connections on passenger side that I took pics of... THEY FIT into the coil! So those were the connections connected to the connector that connected to the coil!! Confused yet?? I sure was. Sam was just tinkering with it and then he just sorta plugged them in. Just like that. Cranked car and it STARTED. 16 degrees advance we turned down to 12 and the car was rock solid.

Unbelievably happy. Just.. man. Wanna know something else funny? That last connector I needed help with... Sam just picked it up and plugged it into the windshield wiper motor! I mean he was with me lookin around for about 20 minutes just every possible place to put it in. We get the car started about an hour and half later.... right after I cut the engine and I was unbelievably overjoyed, we go under the hood for more inspections, figuring out what I should do/get for the car before its ready to be on the road. All of a sudden, he just picks up the connector and plugs it in. He was kinda shocked by it and so was I. Funny as heck, couldnt stop laughing.

Again.. don't know how to show my appreciation for thirdgen and specifically KED (BIGGG HELP), TomP and 305q_ta

KED85

Worst part is ya did this.
Best part is ya solved it and you gained some fun in return.
I get to help wrap up my Corvette today.
I'm so excited.
It'll only rain for next four-five days so I can't drive the car, oh well.
Water leaks past all T-Top gaskets. Try showering when ya drive, these gaskets are from 1973, Aug 28th to be exact.
I'm just happier I've got the money to spend to fix this car.
Really glad to help pass a smile your way.