bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Here's a peek at what's been lurking in the corner of my garage (ok, collecting dust) for a while. I have 90% of the parts, just need to make a few decisions on which route to take. Not sure what to do with the uim, I was going to fab my own out of polystyrene and do a sand casting but I don't have acess to casting stuff anymore so it's either sheetmetal or oem. Thinking I might use an aluminum pan for increased block ridgididty, but that means modifying the pan or notching the k-member, drilling the block and line boring the mains for the new caps, or maybe just using the caps because they're nice steel pieces. Either way I'm using the fwd windage tray. Also looking at fabbing up oil squirters, but that may tax the already marginal 2 gallery oiling... maybe I'll have the main gallery drilled. Got the roller cam sorted out by drilling bolt holes for the rwd timing chain, using a sbc cam button and welding nuts to the block to mount antirotation bars. Decided to use LS1 springs instead of the stock 3400 springs to hold off valvefloat as long as possible without needing agressive springs. 9.6 c/r, porting, custom cam grind and full length headers should get me around 300hp & 290ft/lb at 6500 and 4500 rpm without being peaky. Might put a little n20 through it once I get it dialed in as well.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

More pics.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

And one more.

mtwlkn122

Looking good man!...cant wait to see a video of it when its completed!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Why are you going to go through all the trouble of using the FWD pan, when you could just use the FWD block and have the main priority oiling and roller cam already there?

How are you going to weld the nuts on? You realize you will have to heat the block to somewhere around 700* to get a good weld on them. I would use the LIM mount locations to hold something for the anti-rotations bars. They guy that showed me what to do to get the roller lifters to work simply put a leaf spring under the LIM to hold them down and has been running like that for a cple years o.0

I'm curious what you are going to do about the oil starvation issue that happens with the roller lifters in a Gen1 block?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It's already welded. Not very good penetration but it's not coming off. The starter issue keeps me away from the fwd block. That and I don't feel like pulling another motor LOL. I'm still not convinced there's an issue with a roller cam in a rwd block. Everyone I've talked to only has word of mouth that the cam won't work, I haven't actually seen or heard from anyone that's actually done it. I don't see where people get the idea that it's going to starve for oil when rollers need less oil to run then flat tappets. I've dissasembled one looking for the fabled oil hole underneath the roller and it's not there. And I don't see more oil being pumped up to the rockers either since they came with roller and stamped rockers with the same lifters.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The gen3 blocks are VERY different in the oiling, the main galley, feeds the cam and crank, where as the lifter galleys, which are restricted from getting a lot of flow/pressure, get less oil because of this. The roller lifters need LESS oil than flat tappets, and in some applications can actually starve the rest of the engine of oil, due to bypassing the "extra" oil around the lifters or under them.

I have tried to find a RWD 3.4 block, but haven't been able to, so I think I will just go with the FWD block, especially since my aluminium welding is starting to get much better than it was and can be confidant in the oil pan modifications I will need to make. I may even weld a starter pocket on the tranny bellhousing, just because I can. There is a Trooper at the wreckers though that has the driver side starter pocket.....

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Yea that's what I said, they need less oil. But having the same amount flowing to them as with flat tappets isn't going to hurt either. Both lifters are the same dia. so I'm not seeing where all this extra oil is going to spit out. Whenever I discuss this I get the urge to stick a roller in the 2.8 to find out what'll happen ahead of time.

I've been looking for troopers too, but no luck. Tons of 3.4 camaros though.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You seem to forgetting that the lifter moves up and down in that boare and that changes where the slots, holes and ends of the lifter are, in relation to lifter galley.

Unfortunatly I don't have a genI block here right now, but I seem to recall seeing the lifter galleys raised in the gen3 block in comparison to the gen1/2 blocks.

Try it and see how it works, but myself I'd rather spend the time installing the gen3 block, since you also gain better oiling system (cam/crank priority as opposed to lifter priority), crossbolted mains, and no chance of loosing the lifter retainers, etc.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

That's what I'm looking at right now actually. I made a few measurements a while ago and found that I'm going to be limited to about .540"(?) lift (1.5 r's) to keep the oil chamfer .01 in the bore. How well the chamfers are going to line up with the oil galley at max lift I can't say yet, but I have a grinder if I need it.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

OK, done eating dinner. Looks like there's no issue there either. Plenty of room for oil to flow through the groove on the lifter body and into the chamfer/lifter ect. Not a great picture but you can make out the groove on the top. This is the passenger (smaller) galley at max lift.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well that bites. You are putting these wonderful heads on your car and are going to be limited to .360 cam lift?

The 2 gen 1 blocks I have here are in a position where I can't measure, but I would have to say that the galleys were definitely moved since the gen 3 blocks are capable of well over .600 lift and has been proven many many times.

I have been meaning to test the hardness on the roller lifter bodies to see if they have to be ground or can be machined.

This also tells me why the gen1 roller conversion already running has been fine, since he is using a stock gen 3 cam...

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Ah, so there is one running. I started a thread here you might want to direct him to. Not sure how big an issue this will actually be, but it could be why we hear of more tappet failures on gen1 & 2 blocks with hybrid conversions. The lift limit kinda sucks, but I don't see myself needing more than .54" lift anyway. 2000+ 3400 heads peak flow at ~.55" lift.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Still collecting dust, but here it is all bolted up. Only things left to do are get some fittings for the fuel lines & flare them to hook up to the stock lines & put it in. After I destroy the 2.8, of course.

I chose heritage orange, naturally. Wouldn't be a chevy otherwise. The uim will be replaced with a 3500 manifold later. I'm going to tuck as much wiring, cables, ect. under the manifold as I can to clean it up.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The springs are LS6's, custom ground cam, roller lifters & roller fulcrum rockers. Used a cloyes double roller timing chain with a ground down sbc cam button to keep cam thrust in check. Deshrouded, ported & polished the heads. Nothing special about the block aside from the studs I welded on for the antirotation bars.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

...

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The belt routing was fairly simple, I had alot of the parts on hand from stuff I've worked on. The idler pulley was from a focus and happened to make the perfect bolt for the power steering bracket. Decided to make my own belt tensioner & accessory brackets as well. The belt is for a 2.8 citation. I couldn't find a pump that fit well and could be mounted low enough so I combined the resivoir from a 2.4 quad4 pump and the pump from a 3400.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

More pics of the brackets & the TV bracket. I had to do alot of hacking to the cable to snug it into the manifold & get the right geometry. I had to hack up a couple throttle cables to get the right length sheath & cable to work properly. I combined the bracket end of a cavalier cable with a 3400 cable.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i dont really know much about the hybrid stuff so this may be a dumb question, can you use those intake manifolds and plenums with iron heads?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

No, completely different top end.

Project 3.4 Camaro

BL85C what engine is that?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Looks good! Also have plenty of room for turbo headers to go over those accy's

I have several 3500 plenums if you need one, PM me for details. I end up with them because the 4th gen guys can't fit them under the windshield and I have to constantly source 3400 uppers. lol

I also make TB adapters for the 3400/3500 that use a 65mm TB from the 3.5DOHC "shortstar" that comes in the Intrigue and Aurora.

87bluebird

have destroyed the 2.8 yet. that thing is holding in there good i wish mine was that tough. mine is completely stock with 73,000 miles and i don't know which is gonna give first it or the transmission. i'll find out soon though.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It's a 3.4 block w/3400 stuff on top. That's why I wanted the accesories so low, a pair of turbos on either side will look too good. Can you mill the runner entrances out to match the lower for me? Ben does that on his stuff but if I can get it at a better price from you I will.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I can't wait to do my hybrid build,lol, gotta get the 3.4 in and running first though, you plan to dyno that thing? Would love to see what it really makes, also what did you do to lower the CR, pistons with a larger dish volume?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I used 3400 pistons. I'm taking it to my local track for testing, that's a better dyno than anything you'll find at a shop.

AM91Camaro_RS

you need to take the 2.8 to the track! lol

Project 3.4 Camaro

Yeah but dynos are an easier unit of measurement for comparisons sake,lol, when I get my car finished I plan to go against my friend's 04 mustang gt, would be nice to know what kind of power levels I'm working with first..

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Tell me about it! It's rained here every freakin day for the past few weeks, which is abnormal for colorado. Wensday is the next test n tune.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, Ben and I work together a lot lately, can't cut his throat, but wecan prolly work something out



I also happen to have a set of TT manis that are made for your EXACT car :P Most likely will even clear your current serp setup

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

New motor's in and tuning under way. No drama on first start aside from belt squeal and the typical grouchy running and smellyness. Man these heads make it sound sour. Definately going to rework the exhaust so it doesn't sound like a buzzbomber. I think a mangnaflow will mellow it out, either that or a pair of T4's . Need to find out what it can do on it's own first though. Here's some pics of the install.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The plugwires aren't nearly as neon red as the pictures make them look. Must have been the flash.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I still laugh when I look at how little space these motors take up. I need different springs on the front now from the weight loss . The low mounted accessories fit much better than I thought they would, esp. since I was planning on having the r&p in before this, but the steering column was out of the way.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes, the aluminum top end knocks quite a bit off the nose of the car, lol. A dressed 3500, including the cast iron manifolds (minus the alt, ps and a/c) is exactly 340lbs - I had to weigh one to ship it to BC, Canada. It's far less than the 2.8, even with it's forged steel crank/rods, bigger DIS wheel, bigger rod journals, roller cam, DBW TB etc etc...

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

this is a sick little project, if I ever get my a spare Camaro I might end up doing something like this just for giggles.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Well I decided I'm tired of waiting on the 3500 plenum and reground cam so I decided to take it to the track tonight. It was all I expected it to be with the cam that's in it. I had to send the roller back to delta because they gave me the wrong amount of duration and lift. Not by much individually, but together that gave me the wrong amount of valve in piston. Thankfully nothing bent, just scuffed pistons. Makes me feel like a chump for not checking beforehand.

So with the stock 2.8 cam and basically just a 3400 with headers & some porting it ran 16.1 @ 81mph. That may sound bad till you realize I'm at 5800ft. At sealevel that would be 14.85 @ 87mph. The launch was satisfactory with a 2.27 60ft and it was still doing alright by the 1/8mi mark with a 10.2 @ 68mph but it was definately starting to suffocate judging by the 1000ft and 1/4 time. I had a good car length on the 5.0 mustang next to me all the way to the end of the track when he finally passed me.

Project 3.4 Camaro

What year was the 5.0? And the cam would probably make a big difference, I reckon its worth 20-40 hp in that setup. But would also impact breathability, something most people don't realize is that a stock engine that makes 200 hp, and an engine thats built that makes 200 hp, the latter will be faster because it will rev quicker, higher, bigger powerband etc.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Btw how much headroom do you have for lift with a hybrid? I've always had concerns about encountering piston to valve contact with a lot of lift...

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It should have plenty with 3400 valves and a mild cam, but I used slightly larger 3500 valves and a cam with more duration than I thought it did so it nipped the edge of the dish. With the correct duration it should be about .07" clearance. Well, probably more like .15" now lol. Lift isn't really the concern with valve to piston clearance, duration is. You should be safe with anything under 210* on both sides. The mustang was a mid '80's something, '86 or so.

Hey, I just realized my belt is a 6 rib and 60 inches. It's a 660!

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Thought I'd add a few tips for anyone looking to frankenstein their own hybrid together.

1st thing you'll run into is the tab ontop of the timing cover won't let the 3x00 manifold sit flat. You need to cut it off as seen in the attached pic. Basically just needs to be level with the top of the block.

When you get a thermostat you either need to cut an iron head thermostat down to size or remove the 'flapper' on the 3x00 thermostat or you'll have cooling problems. The flapper is there to keep coolant flowing in a particualr circuit while the motor comes up to temp and to act as a check valve on the 3x00 cooling system. The cooling system will be completely different with a hybrid motor.

The 3x00 cooling system uses 2 tubes that run the length of the block. One goes under the plenum, you want to keep this one for the heater core. The other is used to redirect coolant from the remote mounted waterpump to the back of the block where the thermostat is on fwd cars. This tube isn't neccecary on a hybrid with a conventional block mounted waterpump, just remove it. You can plug the hole with a 1/2" freeze plug.

Converting to DIS ignition is neccecary with a hybrid motor. A 3.4 block works best because the block is already set up for a 7x sensor, but if you want to keep your 2.8/3.1 here's how to set up DIS on an earlier block.

When setting up your valvetrain you can either use a conventional flat tappet cam or convert the block to a roller setup like I did. All you need for a flat tappet cam is pushrods from an early genII 3x00 like a '91 3100 cavalier. I have heard that they're just a bit too long to provide proper preload with later heads using roller rockers, but I didn't have a problem with it when I used a stock 2.8 cam in my motor even after revving it to 6500 rpm. Converting to a roller valvetrain is more indepth and requires some fabrication, but is well worth the extra powerband you will gain by doing so. I revved mine into the 8,000 rpm range with LS6 valvesprings and better internal lifter springs with NO hint of valvefloat. Here's a guide to the conversion.

And finally the most important tip is to measure all critical dimensions, clearances and torqing proceedures before assembly. There is no excuse for not checking these things on a unique creation like a hybrid motor. I eat my own words when I say this because I didn't check my cam specs after a regrind and ended up nipping a piston because I had the wrong duration on the exhaust side. It's cheaper to check twice than it is to build twice!

Project 3.4 Camaro

There's no pic attached or link for the guide to roller cam conversion, just a heads up.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I'm wiriting the guide right now, btw. And the pic is fixed.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Btw just a thought but you should move that coilpack to the bracket on the PS pump, keeps them away from the heat coming off the headers.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I made my own pump bracket since it's a different pump. This way seems to work for gm and hasn't been a problem for me in the year it's been there. You'd think it would be a bad setup but I measured the temp after a nice long mid summer drive and the coils were the same temp as the heads. I thought about putting them on the firewall too.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Linked!

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Got the 3500 plenum & 65mm throttle on. Looks good and made a definate difference in power. Throttle response is a bit sudden but I enjoy it. Snappy and fun to drive without being overly noticeable. I think I'll paint the valvecovers black too. Now if only the track wasn't closed for the season!

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Damn that's nice.

I'm pushing to get mine started this weekend. Keep your fingers crossed...hopefully it starts and I'll finally be in the hybrid community..

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Good luck, hopefully no spun bearings or anything nasty. I think it resembles an intercooler, either that or a giant beetle crawled ontop of my motor.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Nice intake

People say the 65mm doesn't help, or it will bog etc, but feels good, huh?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Sure does. IDK where people get the idea that it would be too much for the street. Feels great to me.